Doesn’t matter what happens in the next film it’s not going to retcon Luke leaving everyone behind or contemplating killing Ben. I really don’t get what people expect from 9 where it’s suddenly going to change what happened before it. J.J. might do Luke a better turn in some people’s eyes but TLJ is still going to exist lol
ROTJ was more about Vader's character than Luke's. Why do you think the weird suggested extended viewing of Star Wars movies suggest ANH, ESB, then go back to AOTC & ROTS before doing ROTJ? RotJ's climatic point isn't Luke's climatic triumph and character moment, it's Vader's.Yeah, he's a whiny shit in the beginning of the OT.
Then he's not because he undergoes what we call a "character arc" and learns some things - including that his masters were wrong about Vader.
He is vindicated for believing his father is good and refusing to kill him, the way Obi Wan wanted him to.
The sequels then revert this character growth by making him contemplate killing his own nephew and making him as mopey as he used to be.
Justifying TLJ's character assassination by cloaking it in "early Luke arc" characterization is a huge misreading of the text and how you were supposed to come away feeling about Luke by the end of ROTJ.
You're kidding right? The irony of claiming people are misreading Luke's character arc when you say this, as that is also incredibly erroneous. Obi-Wan outright lied about Luke's father. However, if you want to argue that Obi-Wan intentionally obfuscated certain facts out of preservation, then Obi-Wan did so because he wanted to protect Luke from Vader as much as he could before the showdown. He never intended for Luke to go after him so quickly and try to turn him over, let alone, try to fight Vader (as we see in Ep 5 when Luke got utterly destroyed by Vader. The original plan was for Luke to undergo Jedi training until he was strong enough to take him down).
When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was
amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to
train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well
as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has had terrible consequences for the
There's still good in him.
I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be
done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.
I can't do it, Ben.
You cannot escape your destiny.
I tried to stop him once. I couldn't do it.
Vader humbled you when first you met him, Luke... but that experience
was part of your training. It taught you, among other things, the value
of patience. Had you not been so impatient to defeat Vader then, you
could have finished your training here with Yoda. You would have been
But I had to help my friends.
BEN (grinning at Luke's indignation)
And did you help them? It was they who had to save you. You achieved
little by rushing back prematurely, I fear.
LUKE (with sadness)
I found out Darth Vader was my father.
To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side
- the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest
door - for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what
he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm. You're
no longer so reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And now,
you must face Darth Vader again!
I can't kill my own father.
Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.
They’re bringing Palpatine back they can do anything they want.Doesn’t matter what happens in the next film it’s not going to retcon Luke leaving everyone behind or contemplating killing Ben. I really don’t get what people expect from 9 where it’s suddenly going to change what happened before it. J.J. might do Luke a better turn in some people’s eyes but TLJ is still going to exist lol
Kylo was literally a grown ass man.
People were exposed to over 3 decades of EU material where Luke didn't do much of anything besides be the SW equivalent of goku. A near flawless man who did hilariously ludicrous things with the force. Essentially, everyone in the audience was as big a fanboy/girl as Rey. We hear Luke Skywalker and our reaction is the same as Rey's
I was fine with the action of Last Jedi, other than CGI Luke's Power Slide. That moment just looks so damn bad, I can't believe it is really in a massive budget movie.
So basically you wanted StarkillerThe Last Jedi killed all the hype I had for Episode 9. Not being hyperbolic here.
And the reason why The Last Jedi killed all my hype for Episode 9 was precisely for they way Luke was portrayed. Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever. It really hurt when Rey was able to defeat him on the island.
And Luke should not have been a projection in the final scene against Kylo. He should have been there, showing lots of Jedi skills... maybe defeating all those AT-AT vehicles by himself using the Force or something.
Yeah, honestly, this is one of the things I DIDN'T like about Last Jedi. I wish he was actually going to do it. I would have liked that more than Ben waking up and seeing Luke standing there after he had already changed his mind.
Then read the EU, I don't know what else to tell you. The EU is the EU and this is this. No one gets mad at the Harry Poter series for not following the fanfiction. Not sure why Star Wars suddenly needs to do that.
That’s not really the same thing though. ROTJ still happened, Palpatine still got thrown down a shaft to his apparent death. Whether he comes back as a clone, force ghost or a giant Jawa it doesn’t erase anything.
It seems not simple when people seem to fail to understand what the main character arc of RotJ was and that in the movie itself Luke doesn't even have a character arc in the way everyone keeps claiming.
You actually enjoyed Starkiller? I think I can see the real problem here, and it's not with the movie's priorities...
Yeah and the man who played Han Solo wanted to die in RotJ. What's your Point?
I think your nephew murdering the entire order than you were trying to build is a little bit more than a stumble. Looking back, it's more or less the first failure we're shown that actually directly results in the loss of those he loves, as well as the children of other people entrusted to his care. Seems like that would fuck up a guy like Luke on a very personal level.
Lol. When we last saw him in RotJ he was the only Jedi so I guess he was most powerful by default? Luke was never Anakin. He was never Jedi space Jesus with a midichlorian count higher than Yoda. The reason he was the chosen one who could bring balance to the force was because he could get through to Vader on an emotional level and help him redeem himself.
The same Luke who thought Vader could be redeemed just gave up on Kylo. "Lost cause, not worth the time, let the Sith have the Galaxy instead."I think your nephew murdering the entire order than you were trying to build is a little bit more than a stumble. Looking back, it's more or less the first failure we're shown that actually directly results in the loss of those he loves, as well as the children of other people entrusted to his care. Seems like that would fuck up a guy like Luke on a very personal level.
He doesn't seem like the guy to project his failures on others, he would fully blame himself. He's misguiding on thinking that means the answer is to completely remove himself, as if his attempt to rebuild the Jedi was what caused the evil and that intervening further would just make things work, but that doesn't seem like character assassination to me. More like acknowledging his faults and providing him a base from which to continuing growing.
Eh? Luke was caught off guard by Rey becoming angry enough to pull over the lightsaber and ignite it in his face. That would be like if in a friendly martial arts tournament one of the contestants suddenly pulled out a gun.
Rey didn't beat him, he was in full control of that fight the entire time. Even when he fell over he stopped himself with the force.
Obi-wan and Yoda had a justified perspective on Vader. Things Luke didn't see:
Sure, why not. Luke wasn't at all to blame for Vader. Vader was already Vader, there is no disillusionment from his own point of view to be had for Luke. With Kylo, he blamed himself and saw the horros firsthand. He felt Kylo's betrayal was his own failure. That he himself was the problem. He's not like "not worth the time" he's more like "I'm not the answer".
Its mostly just how hard the situation is to swallow.I see the point about Vader mentioned frequently and I am not sure I understand it. A lot of people say that their Luke wouldn't have even considered murdering Ben because he saw the good in Vader and turned him away from the dark side. I don't agree with this at all. First of all, it ignores that fact that the Luke who turned Vader is far younger and probably more idealistic than older Luke who thought about killing Ben. Ask a 60 year old if they are the same person as they were when they were 30 and you'll probably be surprised by the answer. Secondly, the scene where he considers taking Ben out explicitly states that ALL Luke saw was pain and destruction. He saw no conflict, he saw only tragedy and given all the tragedy Luke experienced up to that point, it makes sense he might not react favorably to seeing more death and destruction of those he loved. With Vader, he constantly feels the conflict, the good in Vader. He tells this to Obi-Wan and Vader himself in ROTJ.
So, I don't really see why one has anything to do with the other. If anything, him experiencing so much pain and death before the Ben incident explains why he would act in such a way, and him feeling shame and guilt about it literally a split second after he ignites the lightsaber is 100% Luke. That's growth.
That's not what really happened. Luke easily disarmed Rey. For him, it was over. For Rey, it wasn't. She summoned a lightsaber and then it was over.
I have always hated the notion that Vader was "redeemed" after a lifetime of evil. For the first time in a long time, he showed regret, and did what he could to help his son. He didn't want Luke's life to mirror his own. His one act of kindness won't come as much consolation to the billions he subjugated and undoubtedly millions he had killed.Luke Skywalker, who's seen the worst of the worst turn back to the light, somehow knows without question that the son of his beloved sister and best friend, who has never really done anything wrong mind you, is 100% evil and beyond redemption. I mean that in itself flies in the face of the OT. Redemption is a big deal.
Yeah, the scene didn't show Luke as somehow being weaker than Rey in the jedi power sense that the poster was lamenting.That's not what really happened. Luke easily disarmed Rey. For him, it was over. For Rey, it wasn't. She summoned a lightsaber and then it was over.
To me, that scene was what really showed how broken Luke was. He knew what to do, he just didn't have the heart to do it. Not long after that, he tries to burn the tree down and again can't find it within himself. Then Yoda comes in to give him one last lesson, and we see GOAT-tier Luke show up again. Unfortunately, he waited so long he had to do something that killed him.
Luke only saw that because he pulled out his lightsaber on Ben.Rey didn't beat him, he was in full control of that fight the entire time. Even when he fell over he stopped himself with the force.
Obi-wan and Yoda had a justified perspective on Vader. Things Luke didn't see:
Obiwan and Yoda saw this personally, they didn't think Vader could be redeemed because they weren't coming at it from a fresh perspective.
Things Luke DID see:
His perspective on the idea of redemption changed after he personally lost everything he had built and witnessed the death and destruction firsthand. This all makes complete sense.
You got a lot of points all over here but ultimately it can boil down to this. What was the character Arc in RotJ? Was it that he stopped just barely short of cutting his father's head off? That's an iffy Arc if it can even be considered one but that's the only one I can see.TLJ's Luke is "correct" in a goofy arrested development type of way. It's akin to if episode XV shows Rey longing for her parents, or Finn uncommitted to the cause, or Poe ignoring his CO orders. Its not really how fairytales work. Luke's ability to control his negative emotions is kind of big deal and a distinction of lightside/darkside. It basically saves the day. Falling back on that is boring.
Also, as you point out, Luke was never exactly the model Jedi. So the idea that TLJ Luke represents the old ways is pretty silly.
And you may want to rewatch RotJ again. In TLJ Luke sacrifices himself and inspires others to fight. In RotJ Luke sacrifices himself and inspires another to sacrifice and saves his soul. Not sure about your recognition of noble acts.
Also, what does being the son of X type of man have to do with anything? Is Rey destined to abandon her kids? This is silly.
But ultimately TLJ does get Luke right. Before TLJ Luke was a hero, a legend and an inspiration. TLJ drags him through some mud and tries to examine the value of that kind of stuff only to ultimately come to the same conclusion we already knew. That Luke Skywalker is a hero, a legend and an inspiration.
But this whole rewriting history, "OT Luke always sucked, TLJ finally gave him worth" nonsense is all you need to know about these kind of discussions.
Definitely this. Luke saw that the destructive power of the Force had overwhelmed his best efforts to contain it and direct it towards productive ends and said, "the hell with this, I can't control the Force, you can't control it... I don't see how anybody can."