Rewatching Star Wars 4-6: TLJ got Luke Right.

Hagi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,384
Luke is a hero. The Last Jedi is a piece of shit that will shortly be retconned to the dumpster where it belongs. This thread is welcome to join it.
Doesn’t matter what happens in the next film it’s not going to retcon Luke leaving everyone behind or contemplating killing Ben. I really don’t get what people expect from 9 where it’s suddenly going to change what happened before it. J.J. might do Luke a better turn in some people’s eyes but TLJ is still going to exist lol
 

Contramann

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,700
Yeah, he's a whiny shit in the beginning of the OT.

Then he's not because he undergoes what we call a "character arc" and learns some things - including that his masters were wrong about Vader.

He is vindicated for believing his father is good and refusing to kill him, the way Obi Wan wanted him to.

The sequels then revert this character growth by making him contemplate killing his own nephew and making him as mopey as he used to be.

Justifying TLJ's character assassination by cloaking it in "early Luke arc" characterization is a huge misreading of the text and how you were supposed to come away feeling about Luke by the end of ROTJ.
ROTJ was more about Vader's character than Luke's. Why do you think the weird suggested extended viewing of Star Wars movies suggest ANH, ESB, then go back to AOTC & ROTS before doing ROTJ? RotJ's climatic point isn't Luke's climatic triumph and character moment, it's Vader's.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,309
He is vindicated for believing his father is good and refusing to kill him, the way Obi Wan wanted him to.
You're kidding right? The irony of claiming people are misreading Luke's character arc when you say this, as that is also incredibly erroneous. Obi-Wan outright lied about Luke's father. However, if you want to argue that Obi-Wan intentionally obfuscated certain facts out of preservation, then Obi-Wan did so because he wanted to protect Luke from Vader as much as he could before the showdown. He never intended for Luke to go after him so quickly and try to turn him over, let alone, try to fight Vader (as we see in Ep 5 when Luke got utterly destroyed by Vader. The original plan was for Luke to undergo Jedi training until he was strong enough to take him down).

It's not until Episode 6 that we see Obi-Wan admit that Vader's turn was his fault, and when he has the conversation with Luke, he outright suggests that he has to face Darth Vader and kill him, and that he will not turn to the light. So the only reason Luke even wanted to turn Vader to the light was for his own reasons. Obi-Wan had nothing to do with Luke's desire to turn Vader to the light.

BEN
When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was
amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to
train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well
as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has had terrible consequences for the
galaxy.

LUKE
There's still good in him.

BEN
I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be
done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

LUKE
I can't do it, Ben.

BEN
You cannot escape your destiny.

LUKE
I tried to stop him once. I couldn't do it.

BEN
Vader humbled you when first you met him, Luke... but that experience
was part of your training. It taught you, among other things, the value
of patience. Had you not been so impatient to defeat Vader then, you
could have finished your training here with Yoda. You would have been
prepared.

LUKE
But I had to help my friends.

BEN (grinning at Luke's indignation)
And did you help them? It was they who had to save you. You achieved
little by rushing back prematurely, I fear.

LUKE (with sadness)
I found out Darth Vader was my father.

BEN
To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side
- the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest
door - for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what
he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm. You're
no longer so reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And now,
you must face Darth Vader again!

LUKE
I can't kill my own father.

BEN
Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.
 

Aaron

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,798
I don’t even get how Luke’s impulse to kill Kylo in TLJ goes against what we saw in ROTJ.

He nearly murdered Vader, well past the point where he could defend himself, over the insinuation that he’ll try and get Leia to switch sides.

Then he took a moment to cool off and realize that wasn’t the right thing to do. Just like he did with Kylo, except even faster. He ignited the blade and then immediately decided against it.

But yeah keep saying TLJ Luke murders children (Kylo looked like a teenager by that point anyway, not exactly a defenseless youngling) or whatever.
 

Praetorpwj

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,240
Doesn’t matter what happens in the next film it’s not going to retcon Luke leaving everyone behind or contemplating killing Ben. I really don’t get what people expect from 9 where it’s suddenly going to change what happened before it. J.J. might do Luke a better turn in some people’s eyes but TLJ is still going to exist lol
They’re bringing Palpatine back they can do anything they want.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,213
My Luke didn’t murder children
Kylo was literally a grown ass man.

Yeah Luke was characterized fine. No idea where anyone is coming up with "They messed up myy Luke!" unless they're thinking about the EU.
People were exposed to over 3 decades of EU material where Luke didn't do much of anything besides be the SW equivalent of goku. A near flawless man who did hilariously ludicrous things with the force. Essentially, everyone in the audience was as big a fanboy/girl as Rey. We hear Luke Skywalker and our reaction is the same as Rey's



So when it turns out that he's broken, we're as hurt as Rey is. And that's why TLJ is so good, because a flawless EU style Luke would've been incredibly derivative. The biggest crime of TLJ is that it didn't include the scene where the overall point is spelled out.
 
Last edited:

Hero_of_the_Day

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
5,005
And anyone who complains about action scene choreography in TLJ needs a rewatch. TLJ looks like some John Wick level combat in comparison.
I was fine with the action of Last Jedi, other than CGI Luke's Power Slide. That moment just looks so damn bad, I can't believe it is really in a massive budget movie.
 

MechaX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
The Last Jedi killed all the hype I had for Episode 9. Not being hyperbolic here.

And the reason why The Last Jedi killed all my hype for Episode 9 was precisely for they way Luke was portrayed. Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever. It really hurt when Rey was able to defeat him on the island.

And Luke should not have been a projection in the final scene against Kylo. He should have been there, showing lots of Jedi skills... maybe defeating all those AT-AT vehicles by himself using the Force or something.
So basically you wanted Starkiller
 

Replicant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,136
MN
Nah, your wrong. Luke was a completely different character by RotJ and he grew into a good Jedi.

Rian Johnson got the character wrong. Simple. It wasn’t awful, but it wasn’t right.
 

Contramann

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,700
EU Luke is a billion times better. Wise, godlike and does what a badass Uncle would do.
Then read the EU, I don't know what else to tell you. The EU is the EU and this is this. No one gets mad at the Harry Poter series for not following the fanfiction. Not sure why Star Wars suddenly needs to do that.
 

Gunslinger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,330
I am with Mark Hamill Rian Johnson had no idea about the Luke character. I feel bad for Mark to portray one of the greatest movie hero in a garbage picture like TLJ.
 

GrandHarrier

Member
Oct 25, 2017
121
No, it was a character assassination that threw away his Hero's Journey. He gives up after one stumbling point and instead believes its OK to allow the Galaxy to descend back into darkness.
 

Hagi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,384
They’re bringing Palpatine back they can do anything they want.
That’s not really the same thing though. ROTJ still happened, Palpatine still got thrown down a shaft to his apparent death. Whether he comes back as a clone, force ghost or a giant Jawa it doesn’t erase anything.

Luke’s a fuck up and died trying to redeem himself. Accept it and move on. Nothing J.J. does is going to change how he ended up on that planet.
 

Contramann

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,700
Nah, your wrong. Luke was a completely different character by RotJ and he grew into a good Jedi.

Rian Johnson got the character wrong. Simple. It wasn’t awful, but it wasn’t right.
It seems not simple when people seem to fail to understand what the main character arc of RotJ was and that in the movie itself Luke doesn't even have a character arc in the way everyone keeps claiming.
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,116
No, it was a character assassination that threw away his Hero's Journey. He gives up after one stumbling point and instead believes its OK to allow the Galaxy to descend back into darkness.
I think your nephew murdering the entire order than you were trying to build is a little bit more than a stumble. Looking back, it's more or less the first failure we're shown that actually directly results in the loss of those he loves, as well as the children of other people entrusted to his care. Seems like that would fuck up a guy like Luke on a very personal level.

He doesn't seem like the guy to project his failures on others, he would fully blame himself. He's misguiding on thinking that means the answer is to completely remove himself, as if his attempt to rebuild the Jedi was what caused the evil and that intervening further would just make things work, but that doesn't seem like character assassination to me. More like acknowledging his faults and providing him a base from which to continuing growing.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,425
Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever. It really hurt when Rey was able to defeat him on the island.
Lol. When we last saw him in RotJ he was the only Jedi so I guess he was most powerful by default? Luke was never Anakin. He was never Jedi space Jesus with a midichlorian count higher than Yoda. The reason he was the chosen one who could bring balance to the force was because he could get through to Vader on an emotional level and help him redeem himself.

People need to get over this.For one it was Rey with a Light Saber vs Luke with a stick. At that point Luke was disconnected from force and in the depths of depression. For 90% of the fight Luke wasn't taking it seriously and Rey gets angry and catches him off guard for a moment. If Luke was invincible there would be no story.
 

Bragg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,738
Arkansas
TLJ's Luke is "correct" in a goofy arrested development type of way. It's akin to if episode XV shows Rey longing for her parents, or Finn uncommitted to the cause, or Poe ignoring his CO orders. Its not really how fairytales work. Luke's ability to control his negative emotions is kind of big deal and a distinction of lightside/darkside. It basically saves the day. Falling back on that is boring.

Also, as you point out, Luke was never exactly the model Jedi. So the idea that TLJ Luke represents the old ways is pretty silly.

And you may want to rewatch RotJ again. In TLJ Luke sacrifices himself and inspires others to fight. In RotJ Luke sacrifices himself and inspires another to sacrifice and saves his soul. Not sure about your recognition of noble acts.

Also, what does being the son of X type of man have to do with anything? Is Rey destined to abandon her kids? This is silly.

But ultimately TLJ does get Luke right. Before TLJ Luke was a hero, a legend and an inspiration. TLJ drags him through some mud and tries to examine the value of that kind of stuff only to ultimately come to the same conclusion we already knew. That Luke Skywalker is a hero, a legend and an inspiration.

But this whole rewriting history, "OT Luke always sucked, TLJ finally gave him worth" nonsense is all you need to know about these kind of discussions.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,817
Every Jedi we've ever seen on screen is brought down by pretty major character flaws. It's practically a hallmark of the order by now.
 

Tomasoares

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,460
I can't believe people still comes with:

- "you're wrong, Luke is a hero and TLJ is shit"
- Mark didn't like Luke in TLJ !!1!
- Luke would never try to hurt Ben
- Luke saved his father!

TLJ Luke > OT Luke
 

GrandHarrier

Member
Oct 25, 2017
121
I think your nephew murdering the entire order than you were trying to build is a little bit more than a stumble. Looking back, it's more or less the first failure we're shown that actually directly results in the loss of those he loves, as well as the children of other people entrusted to his care. Seems like that would fuck up a guy like Luke on a very personal level.

He doesn't seem like the guy to project his failures on others, he would fully blame himself. He's misguiding on thinking that means the answer is to completely remove himself, as if his attempt to rebuild the Jedi was what caused the evil and that intervening further would just make things work, but that doesn't seem like character assassination to me. More like acknowledging his faults and providing him a base from which to continuing growing.
The same Luke who thought Vader could be redeemed just gave up on Kylo. "Lost cause, not worth the time, let the Sith have the Galaxy instead."
 

Unknownlight

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,975
Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever. It really hurt when Rey was able to defeat him on the island.
Eh? Luke was caught off guard by Rey becoming angry enough to pull over the lightsaber and ignite it in his face. That would be like if in a friendly martial arts tournament one of the contestants suddenly pulled out a gun.
 

ckareset

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
4,977
Hottake, but Luke didn't have enough character moments to say he was gotten right or wrong. Most of this discussion is based on people's personal wishes for Luke.
 

Kimaris

Member
Nov 20, 2017
524
Lol. What a misguided take on OT Luke. He didn’t bail on his friends to go to Dagobah and using whiny New Hope Luke in your argument is ignoring his subsequent development. You don’t have to rewrite history to justify your love for TLJ.
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,020
Luke was one of the few redeeming qualities to TLJ. I think the point was that he was never much of a leader (like his sister was), and being thrust into that role led to failure.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,213
Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever. It really hurt when Rey was able to defeat him on the island.
Rey didn't beat him, he was in full control of that fight the entire time. Even when he fell over he stopped himself with the force.


The same Luke who thought Vader could be redeemed just gave up on Kylo. "Lost cause, not worth the time, let the Sith have the Galaxy instead."
Obi-wan and Yoda had a justified perspective on Vader. Things Luke didn't see:

^
Obiwan and Yoda saw this personally, they didn't think Vader could be redeemed because they weren't coming at it from a fresh perspective.

Things Luke DID see:



His perspective on the idea of redemption changed after he personally lost everything he had built and witnessed the death and destruction firsthand. This all makes complete sense.
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,116
The same Luke who thought Vader could be redeemed just gave up on Kylo. "Lost cause, not worth the time, let the Sith have the Galaxy instead."
Sure, why not. Luke wasn't at all to blame for Vader. Vader was already Vader, there is no disillusionment from his own point of view to be had for Luke. With Kylo, he blamed himself and saw the horros firsthand. He felt Kylo's betrayal was his own failure. That he himself was the problem. He's not like "not worth the time" he's more like "I'm not the answer".
 

Bragg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,738
Arkansas
I see the point about Vader mentioned frequently and I am not sure I understand it. A lot of people say that their Luke wouldn't have even considered murdering Ben because he saw the good in Vader and turned him away from the dark side. I don't agree with this at all. First of all, it ignores that fact that the Luke who turned Vader is far younger and probably more idealistic than older Luke who thought about killing Ben. Ask a 60 year old if they are the same person as they were when they were 30 and you'll probably be surprised by the answer. Secondly, the scene where he considers taking Ben out explicitly states that ALL Luke saw was pain and destruction. He saw no conflict, he saw only tragedy and given all the tragedy Luke experienced up to that point, it makes sense he might not react favorably to seeing more death and destruction of those he loved. With Vader, he constantly feels the conflict, the good in Vader. He tells this to Obi-Wan and Vader himself in ROTJ.

So, I don't really see why one has anything to do with the other. If anything, him experiencing so much pain and death before the Ben incident explains why he would act in such a way, and him feeling shame and guilt about it literally a split second after he ignites the lightsaber is 100% Luke. That's growth.
Its mostly just how hard the situation is to swallow.

Luke Skywalker, who's seen the worst of the worst turn back to the light, somehow knows without question that the son of his beloved sister and best friend, who has never really done anything wrong mind you, is 100% evil and beyond redemption. I mean that in itself flies in the face of the OT. Redemption is a big deal.

And the movie doesn't actually show us what Luke's seeing, you just have to take it's word for it that it is really bad. Probably because they knew there was nothing they could show that would validate that. Its poor storytelling.

Plus the movie kind wants it both ways. The reason Luke is off in exile and depressed and cut off from the force is because of his guilt in playing a part in pushing Ben to the dark. But then it also wants you to buy that Ben was bad from day one so its not really Luke's fault.

The whole set up just rings false.
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,020
And the reason why The Last Jedi killed all my hype for Episode 9 was precisely for they way Luke was portrayed. Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever. It really hurt when Rey was able to defeat him on the island.
That's not what really happened. Luke easily disarmed Rey. For him, it was over. For Rey, it wasn't. She summoned a lightsaber and then it was over.

To me, that scene was what really showed how broken Luke was. He knew what to do, he just didn't have the heart to do it. Not long after that, he tries to burn the tree down and again can't find it within himself. Then Yoda comes in to give him one last lesson, and we see GOAT-tier Luke show up again. Unfortunately, he waited so long he had to do something that killed him.

Luke Skywalker, who's seen the worst of the worst turn back to the light, somehow knows without question that the son of his beloved sister and best friend, who has never really done anything wrong mind you, is 100% evil and beyond redemption. I mean that in itself flies in the face of the OT. Redemption is a big deal.
I have always hated the notion that Vader was "redeemed" after a lifetime of evil. For the first time in a long time, he showed regret, and did what he could to help his son. He didn't want Luke's life to mirror his own. His one act of kindness won't come as much consolation to the billions he subjugated and undoubtedly millions he had killed.
 
Last edited:

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,116
That's not what really happened. Luke easily disarmed Rey. For him, it was over. For Rey, it wasn't. She summoned a lightsaber and then it was over.

To me, that scene was what really showed how broken Luke was. He knew what to do, he just didn't have the heart to do it. Not long after that, he tries to burn the tree down and again can't find it within himself. Then Yoda comes in to give him one last lesson, and we see GOAT-tier Luke show up again. Unfortunately, he waited so long he had to do something that killed him.
Yeah, the scene didn't show Luke as somehow being weaker than Rey in the jedi power sense that the poster was lamenting.

But I do think there is room to say that Rey defeated him on the basis of strength of resolve. This isn't an RPG where the higher level Jedi necessarily wins the day, the force of will and resolve can be a more keenly felt power when it comes to ultimately winning the fight.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,881
Tokyo
Rey didn't beat him, he was in full control of that fight the entire time. Even when he fell over he stopped himself with the force.



Obi-wan and Yoda had a justified perspective on Vader. Things Luke didn't see:

^
Obiwan and Yoda saw this personally, they didn't think Vader could be redeemed because they weren't coming at it from a fresh perspective.

Things Luke DID see:



His perspective on the idea of redemption changed after he personally lost everything he had built and witnessed the death and destruction firsthand. This all makes complete sense.
Luke only saw that because he pulled out his lightsaber on Ben.
 

Contramann

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,700
TLJ's Luke is "correct" in a goofy arrested development type of way. It's akin to if episode XV shows Rey longing for her parents, or Finn uncommitted to the cause, or Poe ignoring his CO orders. Its not really how fairytales work. Luke's ability to control his negative emotions is kind of big deal and a distinction of lightside/darkside. It basically saves the day. Falling back on that is boring.

Also, as you point out, Luke was never exactly the model Jedi. So the idea that TLJ Luke represents the old ways is pretty silly.

And you may want to rewatch RotJ again. In TLJ Luke sacrifices himself and inspires others to fight. In RotJ Luke sacrifices himself and inspires another to sacrifice and saves his soul. Not sure about your recognition of noble acts.

Also, what does being the son of X type of man have to do with anything? Is Rey destined to abandon her kids? This is silly.

But ultimately TLJ does get Luke right. Before TLJ Luke was a hero, a legend and an inspiration. TLJ drags him through some mud and tries to examine the value of that kind of stuff only to ultimately come to the same conclusion we already knew. That Luke Skywalker is a hero, a legend and an inspiration.

But this whole rewriting history, "OT Luke always sucked, TLJ finally gave him worth" nonsense is all you need to know about these kind of discussions.
You got a lot of points all over here but ultimately it can boil down to this. What was the character Arc in RotJ? Was it that he stopped just barely short of cutting his father's head off? That's an iffy Arc if it can even be considered one but that's the only one I can see.

Prior to that fight, most of Luke's development was offscreen before ESB and RotJ. When he shows up in Jabba's Palace he's calm, and very self-assured. But nothing about him suggested a sacrifice, just that he considered himself a Jedi (which is funny since he grows right back to Yoda afterwards to train more). So his change in being more confident isn't the arc since it already happened. And up until the scene I mentioned before with Vader, Luke's personality doesn't really change much more. He's confident he can help the Commandos on the moon of Endor, he's confident he can take on the Emperor without any fear, he's confident he can take on Vader. Then comes the end of the fight scene and he decides no to kill Vader. So what did he sacrifice and what others did he inspire?

And I mentioned Vader in many posts so I'll come back to him. Vader is the one who goes through a character arc in RotJ. Vader is the one who makes a sacrifice. Vader pushes from ESB to turn Skywalker and tries hard to not kill Skywalker. Then finally, right before he takes Luke to RotJ he talks to Luke and you begin to see he's not the same Vader he was, his interactions with Luke are changing him. Ultimately you realize Vader has sympathy for his son and despite his loyalty to the Emperor he's changing slowly. This all comes to a head when he sees Luke at the Emperor's mercy, clearly going to die. He's not inspired by Luke's actions to not kill him, he's changed because that's his son. Despite everything he's done and the evil he created, he's still Luke's father. It's why he asks right before the end to have his helmet taken off so he can see him with his own eyes.

Actually thinking on it, RotJ is the subversive movie, not TLJ. it was deconstructive, but nothing at all subversive. But in RotJ the main villain from all the movies has the character arc. Vader is the one who kill the Emperor, not Luke like we all expected.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,213
Luke Skywalker, who's seen the worst of the worst turn back to the light, somehow knows without question that the son of his beloved sister and best friend, who has never really done anything wrong mind you, is 100% evil and beyond redemption
The fuck?





He not only literally became a space nazi but he became THE space nazi. Literally within the first TWO minutes of seeing him onscreen he orders the massacre of an entire village for no reason.
 

Fatoy

Member
Mar 13, 2019
1,868
He's not like "not worth the time" he's more like "I'm not the answer".
Definitely this. Luke saw that the destructive power of the Force had overwhelmed his best efforts to contain it and direct it towards productive ends and said, "the hell with this, I can't control the Force, you can't control it... I don't see how anybody can."