• To celebrate the release of Halo: The Master Chief Collection on Steam, Xbox Games Studios has provided 5 Steam copies of the game and 5 Xbox One copies of the game! We will be giving these away in the Gaming Giveaways |OT|. Some Steam copies will also be given away to the PC Gaming Era community.
  • An old favorite feature returns: Q&ERA is back! This time we'll be collecting questions for Remedy Entertainment, makers of Max Payne, Alan Wake, Quantum Break, and Control. Members can submit questions for the next 3 days, 16 hours, 12 minutes, 5 seconds. Submissions will close on Dec 12, 2019 at 12:00 AM.

Rewatching Star Wars 4-6: TLJ got Luke Right.

night814

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,120
Pennsylvania
Last Jedi's main problem is it's relatively boring middle act; there's not enough Jedi training with Rey and Luke, too much super slow space race, and Kanto Blight would be ok if there were other more interesting things going on alongside it.

It took me three watches(fell asleep the first TWO times) but I'm ok with Luke's portrayal now after not liking it very much at first. People just really weren't ready for how much Luke had become disenchanted with the Force.
 

Papacheeks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,969
Watertown, NY
Kylo burned down the Jedi temple, gathered the future Knights of Ren and massacred the remaining students that night. It's implied the Kylo was already scheming something before Luke came into his bedroom. Luke just moved up the timetable.
But according to ORGANA Ben was being manipulated by snoke. I believe all the dark shit will get explained. That the dark side luke saw, and what Leah felt when she was pregnant with Ben was because someone was messing with them.

I think since BEN'S Birth he has been groomed to become the next vador by a outside powerful force. ANd I believe that force fucked with Luke showing him shit that had not come to pass and used his fear of Ben becoming his father.

Which goes against what luke fought for in original trilogy.
 

Pooh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,871
The Hundred Acre Wood
I mean...I'm not sure why it's Johnson's fault that people think Luke's a coward who did nothing. Like, what did you expect when JJ Abrams decided that Luke was missing for decades? That he was a secret badass but decided to fuck off to a secluded planet and not deal with the problem he created because....?
They wanted him to be in hiding while mastering the "Jedi Nuke" ability
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
Dude, what? The awakening happens in this movie. Snoke has no idea who Rey is in TFA.

You're right, I forgot about that.

Still I just don't think the way Rian portrayed Luke and how he was fit with his character from the OT, and I don't think that's the direction that JJ would have taken him had he did the sequel, but we can't really know that.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,315
I love Luke in TLJ, didn't really care for him much in the OT but I still wouldn't be anywhere near as harsh on him as you're being. You don't have to overcompensate and call him a shit to justify your love for his TLJ self.

I think if they were gonna show the flashback of him confronting Ben then they also should've shown some of what he saw. Help the audience get into his shoes and understand why he had such a visceral reaction to the point he lights up his saber.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,420
I think if they were gonna show the flashback of him confronting Ben then they also should've shown some of what he saw. Help the audience get into his shoes and understand why he had such a visceral reaction to the point he lights up his saber.
I see what you’re saying but didn’t we already witness that first-hand in TFA (Han’s murder, New Republic destruction, etc.)
 

Freakzilla

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,249
What? Luke kicked major ass in RoTJ. Him entering jabbas palace with the badass robe is the Luke we love.
 
OP
OP
Drek

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
903
Ummm... So should he listen or should he not? You can't seem to make up your mind here. He was instructed by Obi Wan to go to Dagobah.
On what? These are Luke's actions. They paint a character more focused on his own impulses, at first desiring the secrets of being a Jedi, then at the first inkling of that power wanting to exercise it to save his friends, satisfying his own urge to be a hero.

They all fall in line with the character he is and remains through the trilogy. He grows in power level and matures in the use of that power. He becomes a generally more mature character in behavior and temper. But at the end of the day his desire to be important followed by his desire to prove his importance are key parts of the character that never changes.
 

ZackieChan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,279
I'm not sure what I wanted out of Luke's return, but what we got in TLJ wasn't it.
I always get the creeping feeling that the people who love TLJ the most are the ones that love the OT the least.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,315
I see what you’re saying but didn’t we already witness that first-hand in TFA (Han’s murder, New Republic destruction, etc.)
I don't know, we don't know what he saw exactly. We could've had a better idea if we saw more of his reaction to Han's death, whether he was truly shocked or not
 

BrucCLea13k87

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,262
Totally agree. I really like TLJ. I just wish there was no Canto Bean or whatever it was called. Just wish Finn and Rose had more to do. Criminally underused Benecio Del Toro. Otherwise a great flick.
 

TheRed

Member
Oct 31, 2017
729
I absolutely agree. Luke's character was really well done despite the angry haters thinking they know best. I think TLJ will be looked upon more favorably in the future. When we can take the series as whole.
The only complaints that are legit are Poe/Holdo situations being poorly presented and Rose/Finn being a weird thing that didn't fit quite right. Also the jokes in this movie never really landed correctly and I'm someone who loves the movie, never liked any of the humor in it much.
 

Thorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,126
People wanted Luke to go around like Skykiller and taking on entire armies while Mara Jade in Slave Leia's bikini wrapped around his leg Conan style.
 

Smelck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
669
Rotorua, NZ
TLJ Opinions thread number 457

I was hyped after decades of waiting to see Luke in TLJ, what I got was not worth the wait .... but hey, tis all good, some people liked it :-)
 

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,990
On what? These are Luke's actions. They paint a character more focused on his own impulses, at first desiring the secrets of being a Jedi, then at the first inkling of that power wanting to exercise it to save his friends, satisfying his own urge to be a hero.
How is being instructed by his mentor to go train an impulse? He was literally told to go there.

Also, can you tell me what would have happened to Han and Leia had Luke not come to their rescue? Do you think the rebels will ultimately score a victory if Han and Leia were killed?
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,739
The movie literally makes it out to be a bad choice on his part.


"He was just waiting for the grandchild of his master, Ben Kenobi. Because fuck I love my stories to be as neatly tied up as possible. Because that's what SW is about at the end of the day, what specific bloodline someone has and how we can fit them on the force power level scale"
Actually this has been another thing that has been bothering me about the backlash against the sequel series: the idea that the series screws with the force power level scale. With those going that Rey hasn't "trained enough" to be able to use that much Force Power but...that's not how it worked originally at all. The force doesn't operate as a video game. You can't put in 200 EXP and learn Force Push! The OT (which again I see the "only people who hate the OT love TLJ" nonsense) treats the Force as...a force. A simultaneous conduit and energy all things tap into unknowingly. It has no care for "power levels" or "training" or "strength". This is drilled in ESB. Yet I still see so many people (not you obviously) go "Rey is too much of a Mary Sue! She gains too much power without earning it!" which 1. not really she's never shown to be a finesse with her force powers she just has a lot of it so her attempts of using it are more akin to a tidal wave and 2. her being "OP" in force strength is literally the point of the Force! It doesn't care about power levels, bloodlines, or anything forced onto it by those attempting to explain an irrational concept.

...You know I don't know really why this is in reply to you since this isn't that relevant to what your point is (and I do agree, it is odd that so many people try and tie these things into too neat a bow) but that was something I needed to get off my chest.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
21,478
Actually this has been another thing that has been bothering me about the backlash against the sequel series: the idea that the series screws with the force power level scale. With those going that Rey hasn't "trained enough" to be able to use that much Force Power but...that's not how it worked originally at all. The force doesn't operate as a video game. You can't put in 200 EXP and learn Force Push! The OT (which again I see the "only people who hate the OT love TLJ" nonsense) treats the Force as...a force. A simultaneous conduit and energy all things tap into unknowingly. It has no care for "power levels" or "training" or "strength". This is drilled in ESB. Yet I still see so many people (not you obviously) go "Rey is too much of a Mary Sue! She gains too much power without earning it!" which 1. not really she's never shown to be a finesse with her force powers she just has a lot of it so her attempts of using it are more akin to a tidal wave and 2. her being "OP" in force strength is literally the point of the Force! It doesn't care about power levels, bloodlines, or anything forced onto it by those attempting to explain an irrational concept.

...You know I don't know really why this is in reply to you since this isn't that relevant to what your point is (and I do agree, it is odd that so many people try and tie these things into too neat a bow) but that was something I needed to get off my chest.
Like if there's any proof that the force doesn't give a shit about power levels or training. Luke, a guy with at most four years of "training" if we ignore the fact that he spent more time doing rebellion stuff than jedi training, beat Vader, a guy with more than 3.5 decades worth of training and mastering the force, because the latter was conflicted. Like I know people grew up with the prequels which decided to add dbz like power levels and midichlorian counts, but that was never what the force was about. Due to her upbringing, Rey inadvertently exemplifies everything Yoda tried to teach Luke when he struggled to believe in the force.




vs.

 

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
879
Like if there's any proof that the force doesn't give a shit about power levels or training. Luke, a guy with at most four years of "training" if we ignore the fact that he spent more time doing rebellion stuff than jedi training, beat Vader, a guy with more than 3.5 decades worth of training and mastering the force, because the latter was conflicted. Like I know people grew up with the prequels which decided to add dbz like power levels and midichlorian counts, but that was never what the force was about. Due to her upbringing, Rey inadvertently exemplifies everything Yoda tried to teach Luke when he struggled to believe in the force.
Reminds me of Anakin...
 
Oct 28, 2017
16,753
Star Wars has a shit ton of unrealistic and silly moments but Leia using the force to pull herself into the ship is where you draw the line?
I hated it because at some point you have to give your characters vulnerability. Jedi can seemingly only die by another jedis lightsaber or tons of blaster fire. Or I guess Force project yourself. If Rian wanted to show Leia was a strong Jedi he could have found a better way than have her survive a torpedo attack and blown out into space only to gracefully fly back into the ship like Mary Poppins.
 

petethepanda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,720
only in theaters
I don't agree with the "Luke was always a punk" idea, but I loved where TLJ took him. He and his friends saved the world, but in the long run, it still wasn't enough. He thinks he got the ending of the LotR movies but then he's hit with the scouring of the Shire. He did everything right, he's The Hero, but the world went back to hell anyway, partially due to his own failings. So he runs, cutting himself off from the force, taking himself out of the equation. Instead of a transcendent badass monk of the EU, we find Luke as an angry, broken man, who has one final lesson to learn. It fucking rules.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,420
How is being instructed by his mentor to go train an impulse? He was literally told to go there.

Also, can you tell me what would have happened to Han and Leia had Luke not come to their rescue? Do you think the rebels will ultimately score a victory if Han and Leia were killed?
Yea, I didn’t agree with either of these points in the OP either
 

Mewzard

Member
Feb 4, 2018
1,077
I'm not sure what I wanted out of Luke's return, but what we got in TLJ wasn't it.
I always get the creeping feeling that the people who love TLJ the most are the ones that love the OT the least.
Are you kidding, the original trilogy is fantastic. It's one of my favorite movie series ever. The Empire Strikes Back is still my favorite film, but I put The Last Jedi roughly around second place with the original Star Wars.

I hated it because at some point you have to give your characters vulnerability. Jedi can seemingly only die by another jedis lightsaber or tons of blaster fire. Or I guess Force project yourself. If Rian wanted to show Leia was a strong Jedi he could have found a better way than have her survive a torpedo attack and blown out into space only to gracefully fly back into the ship like Mary Poppins.
But The Last Jedi does show character vulnerability. We see Luke's vulnerabilities, carried over from the original trilogy. Ones more mental than physical. Yet the way people post about the movie, it makes it sound like they wanted some sort of Perfect Force God Luke to save the day. That would have made for such a pointless movie though, where fanservice is prioritized over story and character.
 

SG-17

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,747
Ok, let's say this is all true. Why then, is Luke missing from the beginning of TFA until the end? Why is Luke, someone that would try to fix problems at any cost, in the bumfuck middle of nowhere on a planet so obscure no one has the complete map for it? Why is Johnson the one who "ruined" your character when your character you thought was ruined far before that? This is what gets to me about this. That TLJ somehow "destroyed Luke" when I can easily point to TFA that this is the only conclusion you can reach without causing a massive plot hole.
There is literally zero characterization of Luke in the OT that suggests he would just abandon his friends and family and fuck off to nowhere because he was too much of a coward to do anything even in the face of loss and defeat. So naturally when we are told that Luke left to find the First Jedi Temple we think it is for something meaningful and not just a hospice for an old, cowardly, asshole.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,853
There is literally zero characterization of Luke in the OT that suggests he would just abandon his friends and family and fuck off to nowhere because he was too much of a coward to do anything even in the face of loss and defeat. So naturally when we are told that Luke left to find the First Jedi Temple we think it is for something meaningful and not just a hospice for an old, cowardly, asshole.
Who is this we? That most certainly was not what I assumed.

If anything, the OT creates a clear precedent for this behavior with Obi-Wan and Yoda both going into self-imposed exile when shit went bad.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,739
There is literally zero characterization of Luke in the OT that suggests he would just abandon his friends and family and fuck off to nowhere because he was too much of a coward to do anything even in the face of loss and defeat. So naturally when we are told that Luke left to find the First Jedi Temple we think it is for something meaningful and not just a hospice for an old, cowardly, asshole.
My question is this: What meaningful thing? What possible meaningful thing would cause him to be there if, as you said, he would never "just abandon his friends and family and fuck off to nowhere because he was too much of a coward to do anything even in the face of loss and defeat." What, was he mysteriously working on some secret ancient force technique that would cripple the entire First Order? Well, unfortunately under your exact same characterization, Luke would never do that because he was someone who would immediately try and save his friends. You can't have it both ways where he cannot have the characterization of someone who would never abandons his friends....when its the exact thing he does in TFA.

Luke shows a great connection with both his sister Leia and his friend Han in ESB, when they are tortured he connects to them and rushes off...yet somehow, despite this, he never shows up once but stays on a secluded island where no one can find him because...? Again, if we go by your theory, TFA is far more guilty of this than TLJ. All TLJ can do is either open a bajillion plotholes in TFA by ignoring the very characterization you want him to have being absent in TFA or can follow it through to its conclusion.
 

phanphare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,866
I'm not sure what I wanted out of Luke's return, but what we got in TLJ wasn't it.
I always get the creeping feeling that the people who love TLJ the most are the ones that love the OT the least.
I can only speak for myself but I only care about the OT and ST in terms of Star Wars and I'd probably rank them Empire > A New Hope = The Force Awakens = The Last Jedi > Return of the Jedi and I don't care enough for any of the PT to think about ranking them but Clones is the bottom.

I actually get the feeling that the people who connected the least with TLJ are the ones who did with all the EU stuff
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,739
I can only speak for myself but I only care about the OT and ST in terms of Star Wars and I'd probably rank them Empire > A New Hope = The Force Awakens = The Last Jedi > Return of the Jedi and I don't care enough for any of the PT to think about ranking them but Clones is the bottom.

I actually get the feeling that the people who connected the least with TLJ are the ones who did with all the EU stuff
TBF, I'm a huge Old EU fan and I love TLJ.
 

Yerba_Sutra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,952
Appalachia
That people are framing a person going into seclusion due to severe depression as being a coward is making me throw a huge side-eye at this thread
 
Oct 26, 2017
838
I'm not sure what I wanted out of Luke's return, but what we got in TLJ wasn't it.
I always get the creeping feeling that the people who love TLJ the most are the ones that love the OT the least.
Yeah, probably not. My friend is the biggest Star Wars fan I know, named his kid Luke, and loves TLJ. I'm not a fan though. It was a stupid movie and what they did with Luke was just the stupid cherry on top.
 
Jan 4, 2018
350
I guess I just don't see TLJ Luke as giving up on his friends and the galaxy. Yes, he runs away. But only because his personal failure with Ben deeply affected his resolve, which I think is a natural reaction for literally anyone. And ultimately, he stayed true to himself and threw himself in harm's way because of his inability to give up on those he loves.

Maybe I'm just biased because I also had a deeply affecting experience (that I was responsible for) that caused me to abandon my friends almost overnight and literally hid myself away in a deep depression for years, but I personally think Luke in the TLJ is one of the best parts of the entire saga.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,420
The thing is, Luke doesn’t think he’s being a coward. He thinks he’s serving the greater good by ending the Jedi and staying out of the fight. He views himself as a liability because of his failure with Ben and he thinks the Jedi have played a crucial part in the suffering of the galaxy. Now I think some of that is a convenient cover for his own self-loathing but it’s where his head is at in this movie misguided as that may be.
 

Yerba_Sutra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,952
Appalachia
I was talking with a friend about this yesterday, and he made some comment that Force lightning has a corrupting power on people. Is that a canon thing that applies to people who have been attacked by it (I noticed some Legends sources that state it at lesat corrupts the one using it)?

Because if so, the people who think Luke shed all of his character flaws by throwing that lightsaber away in RotJ... right before getting zapped with a bunch of that shit... might have some explaining to do

Luke whining about the sacred Jedi texts was the kind of nostalgia I needed but didn't know I needed
Also wanted to give this some love, when he said that my mind immediately went back to Luke in ESB complaining whenever Yoda was being facetious or esoteric or what-have-you
 

element252

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
719
My question is this: What meaningful thing? What possible meaningful thing would cause him to be there if, as you said, he would never "just abandon his friends and family and fuck off to nowhere because he was too much of a coward to do anything even in the face of loss and defeat." What, was he mysteriously working on some secret ancient force technique that would cripple the entire First Order? Well, unfortunately under your exact same characterization, Luke would never do that because he was someone who would immediately try and save his friends. You can't have it both ways where he cannot have the characterization of someone who would never abandons his friends....when its the exact thing he does in TFA.

Luke shows a great connection with both his sister Leia and his friend Han in ESB, when they are tortured he connects to them and rushes off...yet somehow, despite this, he never shows up once but stays on a secluded island where no one can find him because...? Again, if we go by your theory, TFA is far more guilty of this than TLJ. All TLJ can do is either open a bajillion plotholes in TFA by ignoring the very characterization you want him to have being absent in TFA or can follow it through to its conclusion.
You are right. TFA was just as bad as TLJ at mischaracterizing the Luke we knew from the OT.
 

TK-421

Member
Nov 30, 2017
372
Death Star
In RotJ he stunts on enemies he's more powerful than and when faced with a real challenge only pulls off not dying because Vader does a heel-face turn.
What a reductive interpretation of the ending of ROTJ. Luke has defeated Vader in his duel, but instead of killing him as his Jedi Masters (Obi-Wan and Yoda) wanted, or joining the Emperor, he threw away his weapon. After hearing the Emperor to embrace hate, he instead embraced love and the belief there was still good in his father, and seeing (or feeling) that love is what convinced Anakin to break free of the sith influence in his life, and save his son from the Emperor. You calling it a "heel-face turn" cheapens the whole moment just to try to make a bullet point for your argument.

This moment in ROTJ is a big reason why it's hard for me to make the leap that Luke, this optimistic character who embraced love, even in the face of potential destruction, would consider murdering his nephew in his sleep, when he wouldn't even consider killing his father.
 

Astral

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,397
Sometimes I feel like I must not be much of a Star Wars fan because I found nothing wrong with Luke’s character in TLJ.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,420
This moment in ROTJ is a big reason why it's hard for me to make the leap that Luke, this optimistic character who embraced love, even in the face of potential destruction, would consider murdering his nephew in his sleep, when he wouldn't even consider killing his fathe
Luke would never react strongly to his loved ones being threatened.

 

Yerba_Sutra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,952
Appalachia
Luke would never react strongly to his loved ones being threatened.

Right?

And then he proceeds to almost kill his own father... the only thing stopping him is seeing the wires and smoke from Vader's arm (which Luke just severed out of rage) and being reminded of his own robotic limb, symbolizing that he is falling down the same path (and right into Palpatine's... non-severed hand) if he follows through:

Hope you're doing alright JB, still feel bad about how I treated ya in that other thread, you've been doing good work in these SW threads

EDIT: Just in case people don't believe that this is what these shots represent, here's is what the script itself says:

LUKE
Never-r-r!

Luke ignites his lightsaber and screams in anger, rushing at hisfather
with a frenzy we have not seen before. Sparks fly as Luke and Vader
fight in the cramped area. Luke's hatred forces Vader to retreat out of
the low area and across a bridge overlooking a vast elevator shaft.
Each stroke of Luke's sword drives his father further toward defeat.

The Dark Lord is knocked to his knees, and as he raises his sword to
block another onslaught, Luke slashes Vader's right hand off at the
wrist, causing metal and electronic parts to fly from the mechanical
stump. Vader's sword clatters uselessly away, over the
edge of the platform and into the bottomless shaft below. Luke moves
over Vader and holds the blade of his sword to the Dark Lord's throat.
The Emperor watches with uncontrollable, pleased agitation.

EMPEROR
Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and
take your father's
place at my side!

Luke looks at his father's mechanical hand, then to his own mechanical,
black-gloved hand, and realizes how much he is becoming like his
father.
He makes the decision for which he has spent a lifetime in
preparation. Luke steps back and hurls his lightsaber away.

LUKE
Never! I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, Your Highness.
I am a Jedi,
like my father before me.

The Emperor's glee turns to rage.
Damn, in the script Luke even has his lightsaber at Vader's neck
 
Last edited:

rb1121

Member
Nov 3, 2017
228
Chicago
The truly terrible thing is that not only did TLJ ruin the ST, it ruined the OT and its main character.

I hope master troll Rian enjoyed destroying one of the most popular works of fiction in western culture. Subverting expectations!
 

Masterz1337

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,448
Agree 100% and the only reason for the whiplash is that in the 34 IRL years between ROTJ and TLJ, Luke's stature grew to a mythical size with the fanbase. It's sad that it worked out that way, but a sequel trilogy in the early 90s probably could've explored the aspects of Luke's character that most people wanted to see in the movies we got.
What about everything in TFA about how he was a threat to the first order and needed to be found, or the first order would reign supreme? TFA hyped him up of significant importance, Snoke feared him. Then nothing in TLJ to follow through on that,

TLJ suffers from Halo 5 syndrome, had the characters all stayed in bed and not done anything the film would have ended the same way. Rey, Finn and Poe accomplish nothing in the film. Nothing happens to them. They all end up exactly where they started. Rey is still learning the ways of the Force, Finn has learned to join the Alliance, and Poe.... just wants to fight more. Oh and Luke is still irrelevant to the story.