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Rewatching Star Wars 4-6: TLJ got Luke Right.

ZackieChan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,279
Yeah, probably not. My friend is the biggest Star Wars fan I know, named his kid Luke, and loves TLJ. I'm not a fan though. It was a stupid movie and what they did with Luke was just the stupid cherry on top.
I guess I'm conflating this with the more frequent posting of "the OT was never any good anyway" that I see so much here. If you grew up in the 80s it was the greatest thing ever - even my mom was a huge fan!
 

Mewzard

Member
Feb 4, 2018
1,077
The truly terrible thing is that not only did TLJ ruin the ST, it ruined the OT and its main character.

I hope master troll Rian enjoyed destroying one of the most popular works of fiction in western culture. Subverting expectations!


Seriously, in what world do you live in where The Last Jedi (a fantastic movie) ruins the Original Trilogy (a fantastic series of movies), when the Prequel Trilogy (an absolute insult to everything that came before in the franchise and overall poorly written garbage even standing on its own with very few redeeming features between three entire films) didn't?

But even if The Last Jedi was some big offense like you claim it was (and it's not), it can't ruin those classic movies. Now, if anything ruins the OT, it's the insistence of those in charge of changing so much of the original movies with "Special Editions" and giving us no real modern release of said films untouched. But any later movie's not going to ruin the OT, because they can still stand on their own.
 

Loxley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,180
Completely agree. I like that Luke wasn't perfect and echoed Obi-Wan's mistake of being too blind to notice his apprentice being lured to the Dark Side. Unlike Obi-Wan though, for a brief moment Luke actually almost did something about his concerns over Ben. But because he hesitated he inadvertently ended up just giving Ben the final push.

There seems to be a recurring theme in the Star Wars canon of the Jedi being blinded by their own hubris and the Sith rising up at the right moment to take advantage of it - which I believe TLJ talks about. Luke thought he was better than that and that things would be different this time with him leading the Jedi into a new era, but history ended up repeating itself, and that's why he ultimately wanted the Jedi to be destroyed, he realized he wasn't above it. There can be force users, but if there are no Jedi, than there are no Sith to counter-balance them.

Luke fucked up big time, hell everyone around Ben did. His parents didn't seem to notice his turn either, though I haven't read much of the new EU material so I don't know if its been established just how much (or if at all) Han and Leia knew about Ben being lured to the Dark Side.

I'm not sure what I wanted out of Luke's return, but what we got in TLJ wasn't it.
I always get the creeping feeling that the people who love TLJ the most are the ones that love the OT the least.
This kinda wreaks of the "People who liked The Last Jedi aren't real Star Wars fans" gatekeeping that happened in the wake of TLJ (and the prequels) release.
 

Bragg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,546
Arkansas
You got a lot of points all over here but ultimately it can boil down to this. What was the character Arc in RotJ? Was it that he stopped just barely short of cutting his father's head off? That's an iffy Arc if it can even be considered one but that's the only one I can see.

Prior to that fight, most of Luke's development was offscreen before ESB and RotJ. When he shows up in Jabba's Palace he's calm, and very self-assured. But nothing about him suggested a sacrifice, just that he considered himself a Jedi (which is funny since he grows right back to Yoda afterwards to train more). So his change in being more confident isn't the arc since it already happened. And up until the scene I mentioned before with Vader, Luke's personality doesn't really change much more. He's confident he can help the Commandos on the moon of Endor, he's confident he can take on the Emperor without any fear, he's confident he can take on Vader. Then comes the end of the fight scene and he decides no to kill Vader. So what did he sacrifice and what others did he inspire?

And I mentioned Vader in many posts so I'll come back to him. Vader is the one who goes through a character arc in RotJ. Vader is the one who makes a sacrifice. Vader pushes from ESB to turn Skywalker and tries hard to not kill Skywalker. Then finally, right before he takes Luke to RotJ he talks to Luke and you begin to see he's not the same Vader he was, his interactions with Luke are changing him. Ultimately you realize Vader has sympathy for his son and despite his loyalty to the Emperor he's changing slowly. This all comes to a head when he sees Luke at the Emperor's mercy, clearly going to die. He's not inspired by Luke's actions to not kill him, he's changed because that's his son. Despite everything he's done and the evil he created, he's still Luke's father. It's why he asks right before the end to have his helmet taken off so he can see him with his own eyes.

Actually thinking on it, RotJ is the subversive movie, not TLJ. it was deconstructive, but nothing at all subversive. But in RotJ the main villain from all the movies has the character arc. Vader is the one who kill the Emperor, not Luke like we all expected.
Sorry, I missed this earlier. I agree with most of what you're saying. We may just have different perspectives or something. Yeah all of the change in Vader is on point. What you're missing or underselling is Luke's role. It's not just that he's his son. "It's too late for me." "You don't know the power of the darkside." All that stuff. Luke proves him wrong with his actions. Luke went to the edge and didn't submit to the darkside. Luke proves the darkside isn't unbeatable. And he never gave up on his dad. "There's still good in you." "You won't kill me now" etc. He's right that it wasn't too late.

As far as sacrifice, he went to the deathstar knowing his friends plan to blow it up. I guess he might have thought he'd make it out. But at the very least throwing down his saber is a sacrifice. He bets it on all his dad doing the right thing at the expense of his well being. So I do think Vader is inspired by Luke's actions and beliefs. I mean all you have to hear his Vader himself say that Luke already saved him and he was right.
 
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neoism

Member
Oct 27, 2017
915
not a fan of TLJ at all.. or Luke's character in it.. I was wondering thought I couldnt find it anywhere.. but is it a plot hole or does Leia have force tracking location on her... or something.
How does Luke even know what planet to Force project on... Ive only seen it once so im not sure if it was answered in the movie cant remember. but I cant find it online was it just another plot hole?
 
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Htown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
not a fan of TLJ at all.. or Luke's character in it.. I was wondering thought I couldnt find it anywhere.. but is it a plot hole or does Leia have force tracking location on her... or something.
How does Luke even know what planet to Force project on... Ive only seen it once so im not sure if it was answered in the movie cant remember. but I cant find it online was it just another plot hole?
same way that he knew his friends were on Bespin in Empire Strikes Back, I guess
 

Yerba_Sutra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,952
Appalachia
not a fan of TLJ at all.. or Luke's character in it.. I was wondering thought I couldnt find it anywhere.. but is it a plot hole or does Leia have force tracking location on her... or something.
How does Luke even know what planet to Force project on... Ive only seen it once so im not sure if it was answered in the movie cant remember. but I cant find it online was it just another plot hole?
same way that he knew his friends were on Bespin in Empire Strikes Back, I guess

I'm guessing that once they reconnect through the Force, he's able to figure out her general location.
 
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
21,478
not a fan of TLJ at all.. or Luke's character in it.. I was wondering thought I couldnt find it anywhere.. but is it a plot hole or does Leia have force tracking location on her... or something.
How does Luke even know what planet to Force project on... Ive only seen it once so im not sure if it was answered in the movie cant remember. but I cant find it online was it just another plot hole?
Luke and Leia are connected. The first time Luke reconnected with the force in the movie the very first thing he decided to do was check on Leia.

TLJ really doesn't have plot holes.
 

Deleted member 2171

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
3,731
TLJ Luke was accurate. The dude was always a cocky shit that was barely figuring out what he was doing as he went along, often up until the last minute. He was never the Goku/John Cena of that universe, but for some reason people expected him to be, when the movies established him as a self-centered smartass that hadn't learned everything.
 

Bragg

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Oct 27, 2017
1,546
Arkansas
"Eyes of a scared boy" does not literally mean "this character was a child during this scene please ignore that you're very clearly looking at a grown ass man" Like you realize Kylo is 29 right? The youngest age he could be during that scene is 23, which from the perspective of a man who at the time, is 45, is a boy.
No I don't know how old he is because, to my knowledge it's never stated in either film. Nor is the timeline for how long ago this all took place. I mean, I'm sure there's expanded stuff that has said as much, but so what. And the little bit you do see of his face, Ben does look younger in that scene to me.

But here's what matters. Are you seriously trying to argue that film wants us to think that's a "grown ass man" responsible for his actions in that scene? Luke's off the hook?

The exact length of Luke pulling out his lightsaber, getting angered at the thought of losing everything, and igniting it before immediately coming back to his senses is 12 seconds.


It's absolutely a brief lapse of judgement in every sense of the word. Just take the L on this one goddamn, you asked for a receipt and I gave you 2.
There's no way anyone can claim this is the "briefest moment of pure instinct." It looks methodical. You're so entrenched in your tribal war that you don't even know what you're arguing anymore and refuse to admit the slightest knock against the film.

Case in point:

No, i'm saying that that's a good scene that shouldn't have been cut. Frankly the vast vast majority of scenes shouldn't have been cut but Rian Johnson was concerned about runtime.
This is the post you were backing up with that

The audience disappointment with TLJ Luke failing to live up to the legend of the OT is very meta really
You just admitted that you don't think that, but it's team TLJ so you're quick to lend your support.

And more ridiculous:

Do you even know what thread you're in? The OP even summarized it for you.

In summary - Luke is a shit. TLJ was very much in-character. The Skywalker men are a bunch of emotionally stunted man children given more credit than they're due because they're good at space magic.
Is that how you feel about Luke or the OT? He's not alone. Others basically voiced that same feeling that the TLJ is spot on because Luke always sucked. (lol right on cue. one post above)

And try harder than with this little league "L" stuff. You trot it out when you're the most obvious in the wrong. It's like a weird over correction or something. It's really amazing how attached your ego is in all of this and how you so desperately want to be a hero dishing out "Ls" and stuff in a relation to the Last Jedi of all things. Your blindspot is massive.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
21,478
No I don't know how old he is because, to my knowledge it's never stated in either film.
Does it need to be when we very very clearly see that it's still Adam Driver, a grown ass man, from multiple angles? There's zero indication that Kylo was a child unless you interpret the dialogue WAY too literally.

There's no way anyone can claim this is the "briefest moment of pure instinct." It looks methodical. You're so entrenched in your tribal war that you don't even know what you're arguing anymore and refuse to admit the slightest knock against the film.
If a few seconds if not enough for you to consider something to be a brief moment then you really need to redefine your definition of "brief." Literally less than 15 seconds, "ThAT's NoT BRIef" boi pls.

You just admitted that you don't think that
I literally said it's a good scene. I was literally agreeing with him about the meta comment. The hell are you talking about?

Do you even know what thread you're in?
Idc, most of the critical and audience reception has been so positive because the last two films understood the most important bits of the OT. With less focus on power levels and more focus on what makes SW so likeable in the first place.
 
Oct 25, 2017
636
I sometimes feel I watched a different film when I see people hating on TLJ (barring a couple of issues).

Forced Awakens was without any character.
I agree with this ! I always found it somewhat weird that The Last Jedi was the controversial one. Beyond the issues with replicating A New Hope, The Force Awakens also skimps on the physics in the universe, and renders all of the characters accomplishments in the original trilogy pretty meaningless which is pretty silly considering that is the trilogy that is essentially Star Wars.

And it lacks exposition. Hosnian Prime ? Everyone I saw it with, thought that was Coruscsant. Why wouldn't they.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,853
Is that how you feel about Luke or the OT? He's not alone. Others basically voiced that same feeling that the TLJ is spot on because Luke always sucked. (lol right on cue. one post above)
I think it's really telling that you seem to be conflating thinking a protagonist has character flaws with not liking a movie. Luke's flaws are what make the movies great. It's a feature not a bug.

There were plenty of fantasy and scifi movies before Star Wars. Some were schlocky and some were super serious, but Star Wars stood out and became a phenomenon partially because it's characters were flawed, real, and relatable. They were beat up like their ships and a little shitty around the edges like the farms and bars they lived in. In my opinion it is a foundational pillar for what makes Star Wars, Star Wars. It is about that dichotomy, that tension when normal people are called on to do extraordinary things. That is the core of the hero's journey.
 

Kraid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,894
I mean he fucking says “You think what? I'm gonna walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order?” The idea that he could actually fight them on his own is far, far stupider than any of the supposed sins of The Last Jedi. Rian clearly knew that. 😉

He became one with the Force after the most powerful demonstration of its power. I’m not sure how anyone can be disappointed with that but y’all are entitled to have incorrect opinions that you get mad online over.
 

-JD-

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,070
I know you're right, op. I know it in my bones, but I still just wanted to see Luke do cool shit. That's all. Would have just been fanservice to do so? Hell yeah it would but you can have all the character study you want and still have fanservice.
 

Armadilo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,776
They made a such badass character into a clown that was thrown away in the trash, he's one of the main reasons why Star Wars was awesome
 

Yerba_Sutra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,952
Appalachia
I mean, I'm sure there's expanded stuff that has said as much, but so what.
You need to learn to communicate with people better. This statement comes off like "I may be full of shit but I just want to ignorantly complain get off my back"

Case-in-point:
Do you even know what thread you're in? The OP even summarized it for you.

Is that how you feel about Luke or the OT? He's not alone. Others basically voiced that same feeling that the TLJ is spot on because Luke always sucked. (lol right on cue. one post above)
You're assuming with this gotcha setup that people who think Luke was a whiny shit in the OT hate him and hate the OT and that's bullshit. I think he was a whiny shit. There is ample evidence of him whining and annoying the people around him. I love that and I love the OT and I always have and I always will. "Always sucked" is simply how you're interpreting people saying this. You didn't take the time to confirm that's the case, though.

I can't even figure out what your deal is with the other stuff, seems like you're being awfully nitpicky and pedantic about a movie which has a blatant artsy slant to it - meaning some of its depictions are not meant to be true-to-life - if you didn't notice the abstract depictions of the life/death nature of the Force, or the fact that the Kylo/Luke scene you're counting seconds in is literally from a series of flashbacks from unreliable narrators. But no let's take it literally for some reason. Why is that?

You need to spend less time putting words in people's mouths and whining about tribalism, and more time making sure you understand what they're actually talking about. You're acting like a jerk.

EDIT: And your comment below this one is another blatant misreading of what people are saying. This is why people get so worked up in these threads.
 
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Bragg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,546
Arkansas
Does it need to be when we very very clearly see that it's still Adam Driver, a grown ass man, from multiple angles? There's zero indication that Kylo was a child unless you interpret the dialogue WAY too literally.


If a few seconds if not enough for you to consider something to be a brief moment then you really need to redefine your definition of "brief." Literally less than 15 seconds, "ThAT's NoT BRIef" boi pls.


I literally said it's a good scene. I was literally agreeing with him about the meta comment. The hell are you talking about?


Idc, most of the critical and audience reception has been so positive because the last two films understood the most important bits of the OT. With less focus on power levels and more focus on what makes SW so likeable in the first place.
- Again, is your argument that Luke shouldn't feel bad because Kylo is 20 something? Are you even trying to make a point? You're the one hung up on the language being used.

- No, that's not the briefest moment of pure instinct. Use your eyes.

- His comment was that Luke fails to live up to his legend. Do you agree with that?

- You don't care that this very thread stands in contrast to what you're claiming? What are you even doing?
 

Laser Man

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,567
not a fan of TLJ at all.. or Luke's character in it.. I was wondering thought I couldnt find it anywhere.. but is it a plot hole or does Leia have force tracking location on her... or something.
How does Luke even know what planet to Force project on... Ive only seen it once so im not sure if it was answered in the movie cant remember. but I cant find it online was it just another plot hole?
Not a plothole but a badly used trick to make the "surprise, I'm not actually here" more impactful. I wouldn't look for an explanation past that, the force was nothing more than some magic tricks with a mythological theme tacked on in the past, explaining that shit in mechanical detail kinda kills the mystery about it
Now it's more of a McGuffin for the writers to mask event turnes and twists, it's lame but they said everything important about the force in the
OT, there isn't really much more to it, might aswell go ham with it for the folks that only care about lightsabers and spacebattles. Leia couldn't while Luke could? You're not gonna find anything satisfying there! It's an eat it or leave it deal.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
21,478
- Again, is your argument that Luke shouldn't feel bad because Kylo is 20 something? Are you even trying to make a point? You're the one hung up on the language being used.
No, my argument is that Luke literally didn't harm or threaten a child, he considered killing a grown man.

- No, that's not the briefest moment of pure instinct. Use your eyes.
12 sECONDS isN'T breIF

- His comment was that Luke fails to live up to his legend. Do you agree with that?
Luke lives up to the legend at the end of the film. He was commenting that the fact that Luke isn't what we expected is a meta commentary in the film itself.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,739
- Again, is your argument that Luke shouldn't feel bad because Kylo is 20 something? Are you even trying to make a point? You're the one hung up on the language being used.

- No, that's not the briefest moment of pure instinct. Use your eyes.

- His comment was that Luke fails to live up to his legend. Do you agree with that?

- You don't care that this very thread stands in contrast to what you're claiming? What are you even doing?
Ok, the thing you are missing, and its something all the Skywalkers suffer from, is that they are easily slaved to their emotions. Anakin and Ben suffer from this the most as their rage gets a hold of them the easiest but Luke never actually masters it. Even his crowning moment, when he refuses to kill Vader, isn't an indication he has mastered it because he still fell prey to his anger. This is what's happening there. He is once again becoming a slave to his emotions.

Look closer at the scene again. Or rather, look at his eyes. He's in shock. He barely has a grip on what's he doing. His feelings have taken over and his mind is now centered on his emotion of fear. Yes, it is more "methodical" than the raw emotion of anger, but that's what fear does. It shocks you. And its not until the last moment once again that he finally breaks the hold his feelings have on him. Only this time, the last moment is still too late.
 

Yerba_Sutra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,952
Appalachia
Luke's reaction reminds me of my mother when she's having a panic attack (albeit on a smaller scale). You can see her eyes drift off as she starts catastrophizing within her mind, can see the panic overcome her, then after a moment she'll lash out reactively, then immediately withdraw in regret. Shit messes with me a little
 

Mewzard

Member
Feb 4, 2018
1,077
I know you're right, op. I know it in my bones, but I still just wanted to see Luke do cool shit. That's all. Would have just been fanservice to do so? Hell yeah it would but you can have all the character study you want and still have fanservice.
I mean, he pulled off an incredibly impressive feat with a new use of the Force (projecting his very being from the other side of the galaxy in an illusion so realistic, you basically had to touch him to tell) to save the Resistance and restore hope to the galaxy without harming a single person in the most Jedi way possible (Yoda and Obi-Wan would be proud).

Then he becomes one with the Force, as his masters did before him.

That one moment felt more like the Jedi of the OT than the entire prequels combined, and I loved it for that.
 

Bruceleeroy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,416
Orange County
Idc, most of the critical and audience reception has been so positive because the last two films understood the most important bits of the OT. With less focus on power levels and more focus on what makes SW so likeable in the first place.
Yeah spot on. Also OP couldn't be more right. I just rewatched the OT and then immediately TFA and TLJ. I don't dislike TFA I actually like it a fair bit but it seems a bit off tonally from the originals. TLJ on the other hand feels like a natural progression to the originals and Luke is definitely a part of that.
 

Bragg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,546
Arkansas
He became one with the Force after the most powerful demonstration of its power. I’m not sure how anyone can be disappointed with that but y’all are entitled to have incorrect opinions that you get mad online over.
I see this stated a lot, but I don't think he even did the most powerful force feat in this very film. Snoke basically does what Luke does x2 at the same time and lives. Again, another instance where TLJ kind of steps on its own foot.

I think it's really telling that you seem to be conflating thinking a protagonist has character flaws with not liking a movie. Luke's flaws are what make the movies great. It's a feature not a bug.

There were plenty of fantasy and scifi movies before Star Wars. Some were schlocky and some were super serious, but Star Wars stood out and became a phenomenon partially because it's characters were flawed, real, and relatable. They were beat up like their ships and a little shitty around the edges like the farms and bars they lived in. In my opinion it is a foundational pillar for what makes Star Wars, Star Wars. It is about that dichotomy, that tension when normal people are called on to do extraordinary things. That is the core of the hero's journey.
I agree with you about flaws fleshing out characters and all, although I'd specify that overcoming the flaws is generally what makes a movie great. Regardless I'd say look again at the op and some of the comments. They are basically "Luke always sucked."

"Luke is a shit. TLJ was very much in-character. The Skywalker men are a bunch of emotionally stunted man children given more credit than they're due because they're good at space magic."

"I agree that they got him right in being a boring and obnoxious character.
Never liked Luke and was hoping TLJ would be a fresh of breath air on that front."

"Luke is unbearable in the originals"

"TLJ Luke was accurate. The dude was always a cocky shit that was barely figuring out what he was doing as he went along, often up until the last minute. He was never the Goku/John Cena of that universe, but for some reason people expected him to be, when the movies established him as a self-centered smartass that hadn't learned everything."

Ok, the thing you are missing, and its something all the Skywalkers suffer from, is that they are easily slaved to their emotions. Anakin and Ben suffer from this the most as their rage gets a hold of them the easiest but Luke never actually masters it. Even his crowning moment, when he refuses to kill Vader, isn't an indication he has mastered it because he still fell prey to his anger. This is what's happening there. He is once again becoming a slave to his emotions.

Look closer at the scene again. Or rather, look at his eyes. He's in shock. He barely has a grip on what's he doing. His feelings have taken over and his mind is now centered on his emotion of fear. Yes, it is more "methodical" than the raw emotion of anger, but that's what fear does. It shocks you. And its not until the last moment once again that he finally breaks the hold his feelings have on him. Only this time, the last moment is still too late.
I think my very first post in this thread addresses Luke's struggle with emotion and how in TLJ it "makes sense" in the same way a future film showing Poe ignoring his CO's orders would make sense. It's odd to see that kind of fall back in a fairytale. Luke conquering his emotion at the end of RotJ is his defining moment. It's what keeps him from falling to the darkside.

As far as the other part, yes it looks methodical. I don't see how your explanation (which I think is accurate) can be defined as "the briefest moment of pure instinct." I believe the simple reason for why that scene comes off as it does is that's it's more dramatic looking and fills the time of Luke's monologue that way.

You need to learn to communicate with people better. This statement comes off like "I may be full of shit but I just want to ignorantly complain get off my back"
I'm not sure how you get that. The films don't establish ages or specific timelines. I know they don't. Reading about it on wookipedia or something doesn't change the film. Crossing Eden responded to someone saying something about Luke doesn't murder kids in their sleep and stated that he's a grown man. Then I said, blame the movie because that's the language it uses, all of which is kind of irrelevant to the (I think obvious) point the poster was initially making that Luke doesn't murder people in their sleep. I'm confident that the film doesn't want you to think of him as a grown man and Luke's justified for thinking what he does. Teenager, 20 year old, who cares. It's wrong and it's the reason for this guilt and shame.

So, again, I really don't see how you'd think that's me acknowledging that I don't know what I'm talking about, but for what it's worth I'll try to be better in how I respond to people.

You're assuming with this gotcha setup that people who think Luke was a whiny shit in the OT hate him and hate the OT and that's bullshit. I think he was a whiny shit. There is ample evidence of him whining and annoying the people around him. I love that and I love the OT and I always have and I always will. "Always sucked" is simply how you're interpreting people saying this. You didn't take the time to confirm that's the case, though.
I'm not lumping everyone into the same group. I like Luke, warts and all, in the OT too and am aware there's lots of others (I'd assume the majority) who feel the same way. But there are some who I feel what I said is accurate. I just posted some quotes above. I don't really think there's much wiggle room in interpretation there, except for maybe the OP, but I mean

"Luke is a shit. TLJ was very much in-character. The Skywalker men are a bunch of emotionally stunted man children given more credit than they're due because they're good at space magic."

Do you agree with that?

I can't even figure out what your deal is with the other stuff, seems like you're being awfully nitpicky and pedantic about a movie which has a blatant artsy slant to it - meaning some of its depictions are not meant to be true-to-life - if you didn't notice the abstract depictions of the life/death nature of the Force, or the fact that the Kylo/Luke scene you're counting seconds in is literally from a series of flashbacks from unreliable narrators. But no let's take it literally for some reason. Why is that?
I'm not sure I'm totally following you, but I believe my above comment to Xaszatm address this. I agree that it's a style choice, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't come off as at odds with what's being spoken. And I'm not the one counting seconds and being literal. That's Crossing Eden. I'm simply talking about what's shown on screen. I also think I referred to this as a "slight knock" earlier, so yeah, kind of nitpicky.

You need to spend less time putting words in people's mouths and whining about tribalism, and more time making sure you understand what they're actually talking about. You're acting like a jerk.
My accusations at Crossing Eden aren't based solely on this thread and I stand by them. Also, and I don't mean this to be snarky, but couldn't this be turned around and said to you not understanding what I'm talking about? Also it's really not worth getting worked up over. It's a discussion. It's fun to talk about Star Wars, even with all the crazy takes people have.

Yeah spot on. Also OP couldn't be more right. I just rewatched the OT and then immediately TFA and TLJ. I don't dislike TFA I actually like it a fair bit but it seems a bit off tonally from the originals. TLJ on the other hand feels like a natural progression to the originals and Luke is definitely a part of that.
Do you agree with his take that:

"Luke is a shit. TLJ was very much in-character. The Skywalker men are a bunch of emotionally stunted man children given more credit than they're due because they're good at space magic."?
 
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plié

Alt account
Banned
Jan 10, 2019
1,613
Agreed, Luke was perfected in TLJ.

Also it's the best Star Wars for me.
 

Ichi

Banned
Sep 10, 2018
1,997
I liked some parts esp the flawed hero who wasn't actually the kind of person the legend perpetuates but...

...they made him seem like he was being consumed by The Ring in LOTR and really the whole Avatar fight with Kylo was so shit. Literally get paid millions to come up with oh he's a projection and he just vanishes and goes away never to return? So sloppy in the execution.

Besides, he isn't even the worst part of the movie.
 

Aprikurt

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,195
No I don't know how old he is because, to my knowledge it's never stated in either film. Nor is the timeline for how long ago this all took place. I mean, I'm sure there's expanded stuff that has said as much, but so what. And the little bit you do see of his face, Ben does look younger in that scene to me.

But here's what matters. Are you seriously trying to argue that film wants us to think that's a "grown ass man" responsible for his actions in that scene? Luke's off the hook?



There's no way anyone can claim this is the "briefest moment of pure instinct." It looks methodical. You're so entrenched in your tribal war that you don't even know what you're arguing anymore and refuse to admit the slightest knock against the film.

Case in point:



This is the post you were backing up with that



You just admitted that you don't think that, but it's team TLJ so you're quick to lend your support.

And more ridiculous:



Do you even know what thread you're in? The OP even summarized it for you.



Is that how you feel about Luke or the OT? He's not alone. Others basically voiced that same feeling that the TLJ is spot on because Luke always sucked. (lol right on cue. one post above)

And try harder than with this little league "L" stuff. You trot it out when you're the most obvious in the wrong. It's like a weird over correction or something. It's really amazing how attached your ego is in all of this and how you so desperately want to be a hero dishing out "Ls" and stuff in a relation to the Last Jedi of all things. Your blindspot is massive.
Haha mate I just gave my thoughts, I’m not part of “Team TLJ”. Might I suggest you have a nice sit down somewhere quiet for a bit, you’re far too involved.
 

Bragg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,546
Arkansas
Haha mate I just gave my thoughts, I’m not part of “Team TLJ”. Might I suggest you have a nice sit down somewhere quiet for a bit, you’re far too involved.
Cool. I'm just giving my thoughts too. I think one of the biggest take aways from TLJ is that Luke does live up to his legend. And I'm laying down freshly showered next to my sleeping wife with the lights off. It's pretty calm and relaxed.
 

SushiReese

Member
Oct 30, 2017
228
TLJ basically destroyed Chinese SW fan base and performed only 40% of TFA in BO and even worse than Rogue One. It even irritated the "old fans" so much even largest China SW forum urged its members to boycott SOLO after TLJ. LOL. They even called Disney Darth Mickey who secretly ruined SW legacy.
https://www.zhihu.com/question/264004054
ERA is the only forum in the Internet I saw so many vocal TLJ defenders, although the poll of 1600 Era members showed that the fan base is divisive even in Era.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/one-year-later-the-last-jedi-the-power-of-story.87325/
 

sleepnaught

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,614
Luke was whiny in Episode 4 because he was an undisciplined angsty teenager. In Empires, he doesn't "bail" on his friends. They safely evacuate Hoth and he heads to do his training, which is sorta critical to the rebellion effort you know...He defies Obi Wan and and Yoda out of love for his friends, not for any nefarious reasons. The whole point of these flaws are to demonstrate character development. You don't get that in TLJ, unfortunately, for the new characters. In Episode 4 and 5, he is shown to be dedicated to the cause but also very short sighted and not disciplined. In ROTJ, the very moment you see Luke again, he's fully trained and no longer has these flaws. What were you expecting? Him to be born perfect(like Rey)?

My main issue in TLJ with regards to Luke is the shitty slapstick style of humor they did coming right off of TFA. The moment was setup perfectly and Rian took a giant shit all over it with the light saber toss and the entire encounter going forward. Then there's the issue with Luke nearly murdering his nephew over a vision, which, yes I'm sorry, is completely out of character for Luke. As you even stated above, he refused to kill even a mass murdering sith lord but we are expected to believe he nearly killed his nephew over something he hadn't even done yet? or how about the fact he completely abandoned his friends and sister after Kylo's attack? Completely out of character for Luke. When Luke lost his aunt and uncle, which were basically parents to him. His response was to become a Jedi like his father and take on the empire, not cower in fear or seclude himself. He rose to the challenge. Yeah, now that I remember back to that film. Its complete and utter dog shit. There's plenty more to roast that movie for, but its late.
 

-JD-

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,070
I mean, he pulled off an incredibly impressive feat with a new use of the Force (projecting his very being from the other side of the galaxy in an illusion so realistic, you basically had to touch him to tell) to save the Resistance and restore hope to the galaxy without harming a single person in the most Jedi way possible (Yoda and Obi-Wan would be proud).

Then he becomes one with the Force, as his masters did before him.

That one moment felt more like the Jedi of the OT than the entire prequels combined, and I loved it for that.
I'm a simple man and I want simple cool Jedi stuff. Sure, all the stuff he did is cool but it's not as visually exciting as lifting something heavy like one of those AT walkers.
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,370
Oman
Non sw fans wouldnt even know of the expanded universe.
I never saw what the big deal is with luke and he just came as someone who just got highly regarded due to neoptisim.
 

FaceHugger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,787
I have to disagree OP. Luke was always the optimist. He went out of his way to serve the greater good and try to save his friends, even though he was just a farmer or someshit from a backwater planet. TLJ completely transformed him.

Is that good or bad? I dunno. I didn't much care for it, but I understand that people change. All that matters is that in the end he did the right thing and was the Luke I remembered as a kid.
 

Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933
This is what we the majority wanted. TLJ ruined Luke. Plain and simple.
You're not a majority.....and if you got your way, it would have made the film incredibly boring. It would also be incredibly inconsistent with the plot of SW as a story overall. Like, Luke actually being there and "blowing up all the empire" as you described is just....like, that's literally the antithesis to what the force represents. Yoda puts emphasis on this in the OT and Luke himself does again in TLJ.
Like....come on man.
Not even getting into what Luke's actions represent and what they accomplished at the end of TLJ......Like....whut? TLJ solidified Luke.
 

carlosrox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,873
Vancouver BC
I love when people pretend that they knew all along how Luke would be portrayed in this movie when there was no way of knowing it. No precedent whatsoever for this attitude of his.

"Rian Johnson got Luke right 100%"
"Lul you expected Space Goku!?12"

I call bullshit.

If ya'll wanted this/saw this coming before Episode 7/8 I wanna see some receipts. I'll believe you when I see it.

Oh and I still don't buy Luke would ever leave his family, friends, and the galaxy to fend for themselves even if he was all bent out of shape due to what happened with Kylo. Think about it, he basically let Han die. As far as we knew, Luke would never do this. Half of Empire was about Luke obsessing over his friends (and they were just friends at this point, whom he'd known for about 2 years) and risking everything despite being told not to to save them. Now he has a sister, a nephew, and friends for 30 years. But I'm supposed to believe he's gonna hide away and let whatever happen to them cuz his feelings were hurt?

Not buying it.

I love Episode 7/8 but that doesn't mean I'm gonna make disingenuous claims like the movie is 100% perfect and this was the only way to portray Luke, fuck that.
 

Tence

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,059
I love when people pretend that they knew all along how Luke would be portrayed in this movie when there was no way of knowing it. No precedent whatsoever for this attitude of his.
While there is no certain way of knowing this (and I for sure didn't know all along) it was clear there was something 'wrong' with Luke. Why else would he hide himself on some remote tiny planet? It is already clear as day in TFA that Luke wants to seclude himself and not to be found after he failed to rebuild the Jedi Order.

Oh and I still don't buy Luke would ever leave his family, friends, and the galaxy to fend for themselves even if he was all bent out of shape due to what happened with Kylo. Think about it, he basically let Han die. As far as we knew, Luke would never do this. Half of Empire was about Luke obsessing over his friends (and they were just friends at this point, whom he'd known for about 2 years) and risking everything despite being told not to to save them. Now he has a sister, a nephew, and friends for 30 years. But I'm supposed to believe he's gonna hide away and let whatever happen to them cuz his feelings were hurt?
Yeah sometimes I also feel a bit this way. But the seed of this problem was planted in TFA, so I am not sure why people (not you) are solely blaming TLJ.
 

Yerba_Sutra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,952
Appalachia
So, again, I really don't see how you'd think that's me acknowledging that I don't know what I'm talking about, but for what it's worth I'll try to be better in how I respond to people.
Yeah I think the issues that you weren't making it clear that you were talking about the film language. Eden seems like they were responding to you about lore, in the sense that you were making claims which contradicted the established facts, and they wanted to make sure you had those facts straight. That was the nature of their original comment you quoted, yes? Someone referred to Kylo as a child and Eden corrected them. Then you jumped in making it about film language, I presume, yet you didn't specify that so they (and I) thought that you were arguing with them about established facts (Kylo's literal age).

If I have misrepresented you Crossing Eden please let me know.

I'm confident that the film doesn't want you to think of him as a grown man and Luke's justified for thinking what he does.
Firstly, are you arguing that the film wants you to think Luke is justified for thinking about killing Kylo? Or not? Secondly, why are you confident of the age thing? I can see them shooting the scene with that in mind (IIRC they kept Driver fairly obscured through each recollection) due to the time lapse, or maybe they wanted him to look younger to make him look more innocent (because we must remember that this is a story told three times by two separate people, both of whom do view Luke as the bad guy in that scenario). But in terms of lore Kylo is around 29/30 in TFA (he was born a year after the Battle of Endor) and Luke has been in hiding for at the most 6 years, so that would put his age at around 23/24 or older when this event happened. A child he is not; a grown man at 23+ with that kind of attitude?... debatable. Them's the facts.

"Luke is a shit. TLJ was very much in-character. The Skywalker men are a bunch of emotionally stunted man children given more credit than they're due because they're good at space magic."

Do you agree with that?
Yeah, I can more or less agree with that if taken at face value. There isn't a single Saga movie where a Skywalker isn't being a shit in some capacity.

I'm not sure I'm totally following you, but I believe my above comment to Xaszatm address this. I agree that it's a style choice, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't come off as at odds with what's being spoken. And I'm not the one counting seconds and being literal. That's Crossing Eden. I'm simply talking about what's shown on screen. I also think I referred to this as a "slight knock" earlier, so yeah, kind of nitpicky.
Okay so what I'm gathering here is that you understand why the scene was likely presented the way it was, but you decided to start a pedantic line of "discussion" with Crossing Eden over it anyway for.... what purpose?

Also, and I don't mean this to be snarky, but couldn't this be turned around and said to you not understanding what I'm talking about? Also it's really not worth getting worked up over. It's a discussion. It's fun to talk about Star Wars, even with all the crazy takes people have.
Crossing Eden's last reply to you has still made it clear you are not understanding what points they are making, or at least where they are coming from. You should do better to clarify these things before you let conversations get to where that one did. As for the second part, nah, not when you got on that "team TLJ" nonsense. And not when you're starting arguments with people using premises you don't even care about in the way you're arguing about them. Some of y'all think everyone's okay with that kind of talk and a lot of people aren't. It's a shitty way to discuss things with strangers.
 
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Yung Kyubii

Banned
May 12, 2018
508
I am not happy with any of the plot resolves in TLJ. All what RJ accomplished is making SW universe boring.

Who wants to see Luke depressed, down to earth?
 

Mockerre

Story Director
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
574
Both TFA and, to a larger extent, TLJ, are the perfect mixture of wrong: they slavishly adhere to the surface-level aesthetic, making them poor remakes of the OT at best, while at the same time betraying all the core values and ethos of the series.

Unmaking character progress for the main OT characters like Han (TFA) and Luke (TLJ) and story progress (state of the Galaxy) is one of their many failiings. For all its failings, the Prequels never strayed that far.

The ST will stand as a monument to creative bankrupcy of big corporations, the guns-for-hire anything goes attitude of those they employ and the rebelious nihilism without a cause of one Rian Johnson (and, to a lesser extent, JJs; though JJs is just an unintentional by-product of his theme-park-ride mystery box approach to movies) .
 

DiK4

Member
Nov 4, 2017
759
Putting himself in harms way to save others (particularly friends/family) is intrinsic to Luke's character.
Yes he starts off weak and whiny, but that's the part of him that changes and develops. His character arc spans all three movies.

He never loses his 'faith in his friends' and his drive to protect them. That is his core, and it's thematically central to the OT. The villain even spells this out to the audience, and assumes it's not a strength, but a weakness (it's both). Taking that away from Luke without proper development is obviously going to rub some people the wrong way

In the OT, Luke:
Runs back to the farm to save his Aunt and Uncle despite being told not to (fails)
Runs off to Alderaan to help a beautiful woman he's never met with no understanding of what he's getting into
Is the only character to run towards Obi-Wan to help him despite being told not to, refuses to leave until Ben's ghost tells him to go
Takes on the Death Star with no understanding of what he's getting into
Does all he can to pull Dak out from under that AT-AT (avenges him on foot)
Abandon's his training in order to save his friends despite being told not to (fails) with no understanding of what he's getting into
Spends months training and plotting to save the friend he failed to protect
Keeps his promise to another friend, and returns to watch him die
Gives himself up to the Emperor, to save his friends and their mission, his fate uncertain
Gives himself up to the Emperor, in an act of selflessness for his father, his fate uncertain

Luke is selfless to a fault, values interpersonal connections and causes over his own well being, and is motivated to develop into a better person solely by his failings to help those he cares about. These are intrinsic qualities that do not change in his character throughout the OT. Rather, his arc is him learning from his failures and growing stronger so that he can better serve his desire to protect those he loves. His heart is always in the right place, but his ability is lacking and he's a bit too reckless. The latter are where he develops

TLJ did not get Luke wrong because he should be space Goku. Luke was never painted as an amazing warrior. It's his friendship and his selflessness that drive his victories.
TLJ got Luke wrong because he gave up on the galaxy, and more importantly on his friends, which is particularly jarring considering he's giving up on a situation he feels responsible for creating. It got Luke wrong because of a silly contrivance where he almost murders his nephew, which would've been best not shown.
Yes, Luke can have regrets, he can fail, he can flounder, he can have moments of weakness. He did all of these things throughout the OT. He shouldn't be perfect. But we still expect him to try, and to correct his mistakes. If you're going to take away his selflessness, you're going to need to do a lot of legwork to get the audience on board.

What they did to Luke would be similar to a Leia who is no longer a part of, nor cares about, the rebellion. Maybe she's lounging in a lazy river on Coruscant, sipping mimosas, fat off her government pensions from the New Republic, part of the faction that downplays the impending threat of the FO. Yes, somebody could have written such a Leia into the ST. After all, it's been 30 years and 'people change'. But take away the core of her character, the spunky can-do attitude and devotion to her cause, and fans of the character are going to want answers
I really like this post. You pretty much hit every note on why someone who is/was a Luke fan would be upset with ROTJ.

I enjoyed the movie a lot and kinda agree with both sides when it comes to Luke. It did feel somewhat out of character for him to act as he did, but Mark did such a great job that I Ioved it and he was my favorite part of the movie.

I pointed out your post because my perspective on him "disappearing" after Ben turning is different. For Luke, he did the most difficult thing possible in hopes that maybe, it would help.

Very similar to what Goku did at the end of Cell Saga haha. Though their motives were slightly different (I think Goku was more motivated to continue training), they both felt that maybe their families and friends were better off/in less danger without them.
 

MaitreWakou

Avenger
May 15, 2018
5,643
Toulouse, France
the man who played Luke hates how Luke was portrayed in TLJ

I don't know what else you people want
The man who played Luke wanted Boba Fett to be Luke's mother.
Love Mark, fantastic dude, but he ain't a writter lol. He's an actor, with opinions. His opinion about Luke's character doesn't make other opinions wrong. Debates about TLJ start to grow old. It's either hate it or love it, so it's only people mistaking "it's awful" with "I don't like it" and "It's awesome" with "I love it".
Human beings have different feelings toward art, and TLJ is a very divisive piece of art on the internet. No one's right or wrong, it's all good.
 

SG-17

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,747
Both TFA and, to a larger extent, TLJ, are the perfect mixture of wrong: they slavishly adhere to the surface-level aesthetic, making them poor remakes of the OT at best, while at the same time betraying all the core values and ethos of the series.

Unmaking character progress for the main OT characters like Han (TFA) and Luke (TLJ) and story progress (state of the Galaxy) is one of their many failiings. For all its failings, the Prequels never strayed that far.

The ST will stand as a monument to creative bankrupcy of big corporations, the guns-for-hire anything goes attitude of those they employ and the rebelious nihilism without a cause of one Rian Johnson (and, to a lesser extent, JJs; though JJs is just an unintentional by-product of his theme-park-ride mystery box approach to movies) .
Disney Star Wars, at it's best, will only ever be fan fiction.

I like TFA better than TLJ but they are both very bad Star Wars movies for the reasons you mentioned. TFA undid eveything in the OT and TLJ heavily damaged the character of Luke Skywalker and played heavily into iconoclasm (destroying Anakin's saber? Fuck you Rian).

TRoS has a chance to repair this somewhat and at least salvage the ST to be on the whole better than the Prequels, but right now the ST means nothing to me.


As boring as it was at least Rogue One felt like it fits in with the universe.
 

Tomasoares

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,367
What about everything in TFA about how he was a threat to the first order and needed to be found, or the first order would reign supreme? TFA hyped him up of significant importance, Snoke feared him. Then nothing in TLJ to follow through on that,

TLJ suffers from Halo 5 syndrome, had the characters all stayed in bed and not done anything the film would have ended the same way. Rey, Finn and Poe accomplish nothing in the film. Nothing happens to them. They all end up exactly where they started. Rey is still learning the ways of the Force, Finn has learned to join the Alliance, and Poe.... just wants to fight more. Oh and Luke is still irrelevant to the story.
What? All of the character ends with different goals in TLJ.

You guys hate the movie so much that you fail to see some really obvious things in the story.