Rewatching Star Wars 4-6: TLJ got Luke Right.

[The Emperor]

Indeed Luke was done well and his final act was a masterstroke. It defines what it means to be a Jedi. Thought his death was unnecessary though.

TLJ has many many many issues but Luke was done well, he was done justice.

 

[Rassilon]

current who canon is that rassilon is now a doddery old man though

so by that logic OP is 100% wrong

Click to shrink...

You got me there

 

[WrenchNinja]

Luke isn't out of character in TLJ but OP's take on him as a character as a whole is woefully inaccurate.

 

[Prine]

Both TFA and, to a larger extent, TLJ, are the perfect mixture of wrong: they slavishly adhere to the surface-level aesthetic, making them poor remakes of the OT at best, while at the same time betraying all the core values and ethos of the series.

Unmaking character progress for the main OT characters like Han (TFA) and Luke (TLJ) and story progress (state of the Galaxy) is one of their many failiings. For all its failings, the Prequels never strayed that far.

The ST will stand as a monument to creative bankrupcy of big corporations, the guns-for-hire anything goes attitude of those they employ and the rebelious nihilism without a cause of one Rian Johnson (and, to a lesser extent, JJs; though JJs is just an unintentional by-product of his theme-park-ride mystery box approach to movies) .

Click to shrink...

This.

 

[THErest]

I have no problem with Luke in TLJ. He has always bounced back from his own failures. His biggest failure merely produced his biggest bounce.

(destroying Anakin's saber? Fuck you Rian).

Click to shrink...

What is the problem here? That saber was already gone, until JJ dredged it back up with no explanation or justification. Just, like, "Surprise! Long story..."

Also, why did Luke project with that one instead of his green one?

Anyway, I've been waiting to see a new lightsaber for Rey, so I'm a bit put off that she seems to have just patched up the old one.

 

[Deleted member 135]

I have no problem with Luke in TLJ. He has always bounced back from his own failures. His biggest failure merely produced his biggest bounce.



What is the problem here? That saber was already gone, until JJ dredged it back up with no explanation or justification. Just, like, "Surprise! Long story..."

Also, why did Luke project with that one instead of his green one?

Anyway, I've been waiting to see a new lightsaber for Rey, so I'm a bit put off that she seems to have just patched up the old one.

Click to shrink...

If anything the trailer showing that Rey fixed Anakin's lightsaber shows that JJ is going in the right direction with TRoS.

 

[Haloid1177]

If anything the trailer showing that Rey fixed Anakin's lightsaber shows that JJ is going in the right direction with TRoS.

Click to shrink...

Are you pissed every time you watch Empire and it's lost? Cause this is the dumbest complaint I've seen about TLJ to date. Like you complain about it undoing the OT, which includes bringing the saber back, but then you're mad the saber is gone again, which goes back to the OT status quo you desperately want to hang on to.

 

[Laserdisk]

Are you pissed every time you watch Empire and it's lost? Cause this is the dumbest complaint I've seen about TLJ to date. Like you complain about it undoing the OT, which includes bringing the saber back, but then you're mad the saber is gone again, which goes back to the OT status quo you desperately want to hang on to.

Click to shrink...

They need anything they can latch onto to make their head cannon feel better

 

[Lockheartilly9799]

Yeah, this is what I was telling my friends. Glad we agree. The only problems I had with TLJ were some of the filler content like the casino planet. I love the movie.

 

[Spehornoob]

A jaded Luke who has come to believe the galaxy would be better off without him is way more interesting that Super Saiyan Luke. Luke didn't just run off out of fear. He ran off because he caused all this, and he legit thought that the galaxy would be better off without him. But, in the end, he does live up to his legend. TLJ succeeds because it shows you Luke, the Jedi Master who saved the galaxy, but also shows you Luke, the emotional, flawed human who made a huge mistake.

I wonder if Rian Johnson was inspired by True Grit at all. In that movie, John Wayne's Rooster Cogburn is a US Marshal with a reputation for "True Grit" aka being a badass Marshal who always gets his man. He turns out to be a drunk, cynical asshole. When push comes to shove at the end, though, Rooster takes on four men at once to save the girl who hired him, and shows that his reputation doesn't come from nowhere. Luke's arc in TLJ reminded me a lot of that film.

To me, TLJ was a movie of high highs and low lows. Canto Bight felt like something out of the prequels. But Luke's arc, along with his taking the Jedi as an organization to task (which has been long overdue), are so good that it makes the movie as a whole rival Empire as my favorite Star Wars movie.

For all the talk of how Hamill didn't like TLJ (which I don't think is particularly true), he gave easily the strongest performance of the film. The dude put in insane work.

 

[Deleted member 135]

Are you pissed every time you watch Empire and it's lost? Cause this is the dumbest complaint I've seen about TLJ to date. Like you complain about it undoing the OT, which includes bringing the saber back, but then you're mad the saber is gone again, which goes back to the OT status quo you desperately want to hang on to.

Click to shrink...

They shouldn't have brought it back just to destroy it. It was bad writing and just served as a snub to fans.

 

[Deleted member 2809]

TLJ basically destroyed Chinese SW fan base and performed only 40% of TFA in BO and even worse than Rogue One. It even irritated the "old fans" so much even largest China SW forum urged its members to boycott SOLO after TLJ. LOL. They even called Disney Darth Mickey who secretly ruined SW legacy.
https://www.zhihu.com/question/264004054
ERA is the only forum in the Internet I saw so many vocal TLJ defenders, although the poll of 1600 Era members showed that the fan base is divisive even in Era.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/one-year-later-the-last-jedi-the-power-of-story.87325/

Click to shrink...

And china ate the fuck out of aquaman
What's your point ?

 

[THErest]

If anything the trailer showing that Rey fixed Anakin's lightsaber shows that JJ is going in the right direction with TRoS.

Click to shrink...

I assume that you take the repaired lightsaber as symbolic of JJ repairing the damage done by TLJ.

I find that notion ridiculous. In the literal sense.
Deserving of ridicule.


Anyway...
I actually thought JJ missed a merchandising opportunity by bringing it back yet again, but I guess instead of selling a cool new lightsaber, they can sell an old one with a Band-Aid, sure.

 

[kvetcha]

To me, TLJ was a movie of high highs and low lows. Canto Bight felt like something out of the prequels. But Luke's arc, along with his taking the Jedi as an organization to task (which has been long overdue), are so good that it makes the movie as a whole rival Empire as my favorite Star Wars movie.

Click to shrink...

The more I think about Canto Bight, the more I feel that it's an intentional tonal reference to the prequels, and further evidence that Rian is a deep-cut Star Wars nerd. Say what you will about it, but it's got some real late-stage Lucas-ass silliness.

 

[Omegasquash]

They shouldn't have brought it back just to destroy it. It was bad writing and just served as a snub to fans.

Click to shrink...

Luke's entire portrayal felt like a snub. The rest of the movie was a great time.

I get the sense that Johnson wanted to point the series in a new direction, and Abrams is more about giving the old fans what they want. Further, if we're talking about 'trilogies', it's pretty easy to compare TFA to ANH. Comparing TLJ to ESB...not so much. With Rise of Skywalker, I REALLY wouldn't be surprised if it's another RotJ. The teaser was at the very least crafted to give us that much.

 

[Elandyll]

Luke's entire portrayal felt like a snub. The rest of the movie was a great time.

I get the sense that Johnson wanted to point the series in a new direction, and Abrams is more about giving the old fans what they want. Further, if we're talking about 'trilogies', it's pretty easy to compare TFA to ANH. Comparing TLJ to ESB...not so much. With Rise of Skywalker, I REALLY wouldn't be surprised if it's another RotJ. The teaser was at the very least crafted to give us that much.

Click to shrink...

TLJ is massively lifted from ESB though, with just a few wrenches ("subverted expectations!") in the mix.

- Base evacuation with Imperial fleet arrival
- hero in Bacta tank
- space race that won't end and a technical Mac Guffin that prevents jumping in Hyper Space
- Main hero seeks Jedi training from a wise master on a secluded place, but he is not what he/ she expected
- wise master refuses to give training at first, but eventually gives some amount
- first encounter with the Dark Side within (Tree/ Cave)
- hero leaves planet before training is compete
- other group of heroes seek a casino/ floating mining station to find a solution to their McGuffin problem (not being able to jump)
- rebels/ resistance make a last stand on a snow/ salt planet as the imperial fleet assault goes on with walkers (beginning film for ESB, end for TLJ)
- movie ends on a slim hope, but with a grim overal situation (Heroes on the run, having had severe losses)

 

[Omegasquash]

TLJ is massively lifted from ESB though, with just a few wrenches ("subverted expectations!") in the mix.

- Base evacuation with Imperial fleet arrival
- hero in Bacta tank
- space race that won't end and a technical Mac Guffin that prevents jumping in Hyper Space
- Main hero seeks Jedi training from a wise master on a secluded place, but he is not what he/ she expected
- wise master refuses to give training at first, but eventually gives some amount
- first encounter with the Dark Side within (Tree/ Cave)
- hero leaves planet before training is compete
- other group of heroes seek a casino/ floating mining station to find a solution to their McGuffin problem (not being able to jump)
- rebels/ resistance make a last stand on a snow/ salt planet as the imperial fleet assault goes on with walkers (beginning film for ESB, end for TLJ)
- movie ends on a slim hope, but with a grim overal situation (Heroes on the run, having had severe losses)

Click to shrink...

Oh no debating that it followed the formula pretty well, it just didn't feel as in line as TFA was with ANH.

What you've listed here though makes me want to go back and look at TLJ again, though.

 

[Nephtes]

Absolutely. You're absolutely right.

Here's my view on Luke in TLJ from another thread:

Click to shrink...

I'm going to share this with some of my Last Jedi hating friends.

Thank you!

 

[Tomasoares]

TFA isn't even that similar to ANH plotwise, it's much more similar visually-like, which is where the "problem" relies on (Jakku being a desert planet, a cantina just like ANH, a superweapon similar to the Deathstar, etc)

 

[Mariachi507]

I threw this together last year during a similar thread and I feel it sums it up nicely. That IS Luke Skywalker and the core of what makes him such a good character. He is reckless and impulsive. His compulsiveness brings him close to throwing it all away, but he always comes to senses. That's why people love him. There is much more to him other than looking cool while force choking pig people or being a badass with a lightsaber, which are the types of characters that Star Wars has in spades.

 

[MancombSeepgood]

I threw this together last year during a similar thread and I feel it sums it up nicely. That IS Luke Skywalker and the core of what makes him such a good character. He is reckless and impulsive. His compulsiveness brings him close to throwing it all away, but he always comes to senses. That's why people love him. There is much more to him other than looking cool while force choking pig people or being a badass with a lightsaber, which are the types of characters that Star Wars has in spades.

Click to shrink...

That gif is perfect.

 

[QuantumZebra]

How is being instructed by his mentor to go train an impulse? He was literally told to go there.

Also, can you tell me what would have happened to Han and Leia had Luke not come to their rescue? Do you think the rebels will ultimately score a victory if Han and Leia were killed?

Click to shrink...

Unless I'm missing something - the exact same thing would have happened to Leia and Han with or without Luke showing up. All that he accomplished was losing a hand. Vader was still going to let Boba take Han and let Leia escape so he could track her.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I threw this together last year during a similar thread and I feel it sums it up nicely. That IS Luke Skywalker and the core of what makes him such a good character. He is reckless and impulsive. His compulsiveness brings him close to throwing it all away, but he always comes to senses. That's why people love him. There is much more to him other than looking cool while force choking pig people or being a badass with a lightsaber, which are the types of characters that Star Wars has in spades.

Click to shrink...

Beautiful.

 

[Cabbagehead]

Oh no the truth is out.

 

[lowlifelenny]

4-6 Luke is one of cinema's all time greats- plucky, compassionate, and good-natured, with character flaws which test his limits and allow him to grow. By the end of RotJ, he's fully matured via a defining act of selflessness and love, and has won the hearts of millions upon millions of moviegoers worldwide.

8 Luke is a fundamentally unlikable, unrelatable cartoon, a grotesquely cynical take from a different writer who could not be any less on the same page as Lucas.

Justifying TLJ's character assassination by cloaking it in "early Luke arc" characterization is a huge misreading of the text and how you were supposed to come away feeling about Luke by the end of ROTJ.

Click to shrink...

Pretty much. RotJ Luke's act of defiance in the face of the Emperor's attempted seduction is Luke recognising and deliberately avoiding making the biggest mistake in his life.

But then TLJ forgets and has him do it all over again, with worse consequences.

 

[Gunslinger]

4-6 Luke is one of cinema's all time greats- plucky, compassionate, and good-natured, with character flaws which test his limits and allow him to grow. By the end of RotJ, he's fully matured via a defining act of selflessness and love, and has won the hearts of millions upon millions of moviegoers worldwide.

8 Luke is a fundamentally unlikable, unrelatable cartoon, a grotesquely cynical take from a different writer who could not be any less on the same page as Lucas.



Pretty much. RotJ Luke's act of defiance in the face of the Emperor's attempted seduction is Luke recognising and deliberately avoiding making the biggest mistake in his life.

But then TLJ forgets and has him do it all over again, with worse consequences.

Click to shrink...

Very well put friend.

 

[Raptor]

I disagree with you.

Simple as that.

Luke would never go into exile nor would ever think of killing his nephew for fuck sakes.

TLJ is so damn bad.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

Pretty much. RotJ Luke's act of defiance in the face of the Emperor's attempted seduction is Luke recognising and deliberately avoiding making the biggest mistake in his life.

Click to shrink...

Luke successfully defied darkside impulses in ROTJ? And Luke fell to the dark side in TLJ? Nothing that you said here accurately captures Luke's behavior in either movie. Must have watched a different VHS copy of ROTJ back in the 80s

 

[lowlifelenny]

Luke successfully defied darkside impulses in ROTJ?

Click to shrink...

You should watch it, fantastic movie.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

You should watch it, fantastic movie.

Click to shrink...

Again, did you watch the movie? Luke is neck-deep in the darkside when he's wailing on his father and pulls back at the final moment. He avoids being completely seduced but he def tapped into that shit big time before pulling back.

So I'll ask again: Luke showed no impulse toward the dark side?

 

[lowlifelenny]

Again, did you watch the movie? Luke is neck-deep in the darkside when he's wailing on his father and pulls back at the final moment. He avoids being completely seduced but he def tapped into that shit big time before pulling back.

Click to shrink...

Are we agreeing or disagreeing here? I honestly have no idea.

 

[HardTimesFamilyPride]

All that he accomplished was losing a hand. Vader was still going to let Boba take Han and let Leia escape so he could track her.

Click to shrink...

Whoa. Is this established? I either forgot about it or completely missed it somehow!

 

[Green]

Again, did you watch the movie? Luke is neck-deep in the darkside when he's wailing on his father and pulls back at the final moment. He avoids being completely seduced but he def tapped into that shit big time before pulling back.

So I'll ask again: Luke showed no impulse toward the dark side?

Click to shrink...

Absolutely. It's always been the headcanon in my group that Luke actually mastered both sides of the force in that moment by using the dark side to nearly defeat vader, then choosing pacifism as the "final blow".

 

[Deleted member 21339]

Are we agreeing or disagreeing here? I honestly have no idea.

Click to shrink...

The point is there is precedent in this story for Luke to act rashly when the people he loves are under threat (like when Vader baits him about Leia) and he goes ballistic, tapping into dark side energy to utterly defeat his father. He pulls back from the brink, but only just. He does the same exact thing with Ben but to a much lesser extent.

 

[QuantumZebra]

4-6 Luke is one of cinema's all time greats- plucky, compassionate, and good-natured, with character flaws which test his limits and allow him to grow. By the end of RotJ, he's fully matured via a defining act of selflessness and love, and has won the hearts of millions upon millions of moviegoers worldwide.

8 Luke is a fundamentally unlikable, unrelatable cartoon, a grotesquely cynical take from a different writer who could not be any less on the same page as Lucas.



Pretty much. RotJ Luke's act of defiance in the face of the Emperor's attempted seduction is Luke recognising and deliberately avoiding making the biggest mistake in his life.

But then TLJ forgets and has him do it all over again, with worse consequences.

Click to shrink...

So what you're saying is you somehow thought Luke would magically overcome any impulses towards the dark side (something that in-canon all Jedi fight with their entire lives) for the rest of his life? That he'd be just perfect - even in the face of visions in his mind of Kylo murdering everyone?

You must have some awfully warped notions of good/evil and the spectrum of life choices.

Are we agreeing or disagreeing here? I honestly have no idea.

Click to shrink...

People are disagreeing with you because you're acting like people make one mistake then never make a similar but not quite mistake again.

It's absurd. Luke isn't Jesus (that was Anakin, apparently, lol). He made plenty of mistakes and almost fell to the dark side plenty of times (both within the OT, the EU, canon EU, etc).

 

[MagicHobo]

Pretty much. RotJ Luke's act of defiance in the face of the Emperor's attempted seduction is Luke recognising and deliberately avoiding making the biggest mistake in his life.

But then TLJ forgets and has him do it all over again, with worse consequences.

Click to shrink...

What exactly did TLJ forget though? It showed Luke facing the darkness and ultimately not giving in. It showed Luke is still the same Luke from the end of RotJ. But yes, there were worse consequences, but they came from a matter of perspective, not intention.

 

[lowlifelenny]

What exactly did TLJ forget though?

Click to shrink...

It forgot that Luke recognised that the Dark Side was consuming him, and that he made a conscious decision ("Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side.") to deny it. He stops fighting and declares himself a Jedi. He basically does the opposite of what Anakin did. He struggles with temptation and succeeds, whereas Anakin faltered.

Just a guess, but Jedi as Lucas envisioned them probably don't toy with the idea of murdering people in their sleep, even fleetingly.

 

[The Adder]

Younglings

Click to shrink...

Murdering the younglings is just a natural response to stress for Skywalker men. Luke stopped himself, because he's better than his father and his nephew.

 

[Xaszatm]

It forgot that Luke recognised that the Dark Side was consuming him, and that he made a conscious decision ("Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side.") to deny it. He stops fighting and declares himself a Jedi. He basically does the opposite of what Anakin did. He struggles with temptation and succeeds, whereas Anakin faltered.

Just a guess, but Jedi as Lucas envisioned them probably don't toy with the idea of murdering people in their sleep, even fleetingly.

Click to shrink...

Yet in that Original EU not only does he get corrupted by the dark side, he falls hard. If anything, Luke once again realizing his emotions are taking over him again is far more consistent in TLJ than the old EU if we go by your interpretation.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

Just a guess, but Jedi as Lucas envisioned them probably don't toy with the idea of murdering people in their sleep, even fleetingly.

Click to shrink...

Toy .. ha. A moment of purse instinct is not toying with something. You're acting like he went into Ben's hut with the intention of killing him. That's not at all what happened.

 

[kvetcha]

I threw this together last year during a similar thread and I feel it sums it up nicely. That IS Luke Skywalker and the core of what makes him such a good character. He is reckless and impulsive. His compulsiveness brings him close to throwing it all away, but he always comes to senses. That's why people love him. There is much more to him other than looking cool while force choking pig people or being a badass with a lightsaber, which are the types of characters that Star Wars has in spades.

Click to shrink...

I love this gif so much.

 

[lowlifelenny]

Yet in that Original EU not only does he get corrupted by the dark side, he falls hard. If anything, Luke once again realizing his emotions are taking over him again is far more consistent in TLJ than the old EU if we go by your interpretation.

Click to shrink...

I don't do EU

If ol' George didn't write it, I ain't readin' it

You're acting like he went into Ben's hut with the intention of killing him. That's not at all what happened.

Click to shrink...

You seem to be making some massive and strange leaps when reading my posts. And you're welcome to. But it makes your posts hard to respond to.

At least tell me- why did he turn the Lightsaber on in the first place?

 

[Xaszatm]

I don't do EU

If ol' George didn't write it, I ain't readin' it

Click to shrink...

Fine, than your interpretation doesn't make any sense. Do you honestly believe corruption is simply overcome once?

 

[MagicHobo]

At least tell me- why did he turn the Lightsaber on in the first place?

Click to shrink...

He literally said the reason to distinguish it from your characterization as "toying" in the part of his post you deleted: instinct. You don't think a highly trained jedi would have an immediate defensive instinct when sensing the presence of a deep evil?

 

[lowlifelenny]

Do you honestly believe corruption is simply overcome once?

Click to shrink...

In a fairy tale? By the hero? Of course.

He literally said the reason in the part of his post you deleted: instinct.

Click to shrink...

So he didn't intend to kill him? Or did he?

If you ask me simply turning the Lightsaber on in the first place is ridiculous enough.

 

[DixieDean82]

I had some issue with TLJ, but I LOVED Luke's journey. Not all heroes wear capes.

 

[Deleted member 17810]

The spirit of your post is correct, but you miss some pretty key details and get some things wrong.

Luke isn't a dirtbag or a "Shit", he was thrust into something he never asked for and was hardly prepared for. He did his best to figure things out along the way while be lied to, pulled in different directions by darkness and light, and ultimately was able to understand and accept the failures of the Jedi. He isn't really "bailed out" by Vader, Luke bails VADER out and brings him back into the light.

By choosing not to follow Yoda and Obi-Wan's advice, Luke realizes where they were wrong. Things certainly don't work out as he intended post ROTJ leading up to TLJ, but Luke clearly came to the conclusion that the galaxy was better off without Skywalkers fucking things up (as you mention).

Luke is able to successfully give Rey the wisdom she needs to basically be a "gray" Jedi, or in reality a Jedi more like qui-gon. More concerned with keeping the peace, roaming around the galalxy, and being one with the living force.

 

[MagicHobo]

Luke is able to successfully give Rey the wisdom she needs to basically be a "gray" Jedi, or in reality a Jedi more like qui-gon. More concerned with keeping the peace, roaming around the galalxy, and being one with the living force.

Click to shrink...

I don't disagree with your characterization of Luke, but I want to push back on this a little. I think your description of "gray" jedi as "concerned with keeping the peace" and "being one with the living force" is perhaps more what the Jedi Order used to be and that would fall in line with the vision Luke rejected, and that Luke is advocating a more heroic "save your friends" type of Jedi. More focused on heroism than dogmatic balance.

 

[Xaszatm]

In a fairy tale? By the hero? Of course.



So he didn't intend to kill him? Or did he?

If you ask me simply turning the Lightsaber on in the first place is ridiculous enough.

Click to shrink...

The entire point of the sequel trilogy is examining what happens after the happy end. Even TFA explores this to some extent. None of the original heroes are where they were at the end of RotJ. All of them have recluse to their old ways. Why was Luke supposed to be different?

 

[jett]

Now explain Luke wanting/attempting to kill Kylo while he was sleeping.

I'm mostly indifferent to TLJ, but one thing I absolutely did not like about it was essentially everything about its handling of Luke.