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Rewatching Star Wars 4-6: TLJ got Luke Right.
- Thread starter Drek
- Start date
Doesn't matter what happens in the next film it's not going to retcon Luke leaving everyone behind or contemplating killing Ben. I really don't get what people expect from 9 where it's suddenly going to change what happened before it. J.J. might do Luke a better turn in some people's eyes but TLJ is still going to exist lol
ROTJ was more about Vader's character than Luke's. Why do you think the weird suggested extended viewing of Star Wars movies suggest ANH, ESB, then go back to AOTC & ROTS before doing ROTJ? RotJ's climatic point isn't Luke's climatic triumph and character moment, it's Vader's.
You're kidding right? The irony of claiming people are misreading Luke's character arc when you say this, as that is also incredibly erroneous. Obi-Wan outright lied about Luke's father. However, if you want to argue that Obi-Wan intentionally obfuscated certain facts out of preservation, then Obi-Wan did so because he wanted to protect Luke from Vader as much as he could before the showdown. He never intended for Luke to go after him so quickly and try to turn him over, let alone, try to fight Vader (as we see in Ep 5 when Luke got utterly destroyed by Vader. The original plan was for Luke to undergo Jedi training until he was strong enough to take him down).
It's not until Episode 6 that we see Obi-Wan admit that Vader's turn was his fault, and when he has the conversation with Luke, he outright suggests that he has to face Darth Vader and kill him, and that he will not turn to the light. So the only reason Luke even wanted to turn Vader to the light was for his own reasons. Obi-Wan had nothing to do with Luke's desire to turn Vader to the light.
I don't even get how Luke's impulse to kill Kylo in TLJ goes against what we saw in ROTJ.
He nearly murdered Vader, well past the point where he could defend himself, over the insinuation that he'll try and get Leia to switch sides.
Then he took a moment to cool off and realize that wasn't the right thing to do. Just like he did with Kylo, except even faster. He ignited the blade and then immediately decided against it.
But yeah keep saying TLJ Luke murders children (Kylo looked like a teenager by that point anyway, not exactly a defenseless youngling) or whatever.
He nearly murdered Vader, well past the point where he could defend himself, over the insinuation that he'll try and get Leia to switch sides.
Then he took a moment to cool off and realize that wasn't the right thing to do. Just like he did with Kylo, except even faster. He ignited the blade and then immediately decided against it.
But yeah keep saying TLJ Luke murders children (Kylo looked like a teenager by that point anyway, not exactly a defenseless youngling) or whatever.
As a Catholic I'm reminded of this scene by what's happening in Paris today.
Kylo was literally a grown ass man.
People were exposed to over 3 decades of EU material where Luke didn't do much of anything besides be the SW equivalent of goku. A near flawless man who did hilariously ludicrous things with the force. Essentially, everyone in the audience was as big a fanboy/girl as Rey. We hear Luke Skywalker and our reaction is the same as Rey's
So when it turns out that he's broken, we're as hurt as Rey is. And that's why TLJ is so good, because a flawless EU style Luke would've been incredibly derivative. The biggest crime of TLJ is that it didn't include the scene where the overall point is spelled out.
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I was fine with the action of Last Jedi, other than CGI Luke's Power Slide. That moment just looks so damn bad, I can't believe it is really in a massive budget movie.
Unless there's something in the new EU that's different, no one ever said this and even before the movie it should have been clear this would never be the case.
Yeah, honestly, this is one of the things I DIDN'T like about Last Jedi. I wish he was actually going to do it. I would have liked that more than Ben waking up and seeing Luke standing there after he had already changed his mind.
Then read the EU, I don't know what else to tell you. The EU is the EU and this is this. No one gets mad at the Harry Poter series for not following the fanfiction. Not sure why Star Wars suddenly needs to do that.
I am with Mark Hamill Rian Johnson had no idea about the Luke character. I feel bad for Mark to portray one of the greatest movie hero in a garbage picture like TLJ.
No, it was a character assassination that threw away his Hero's Journey. He gives up after one stumbling point and instead believes its OK to allow the Galaxy to descend back into darkness.
the man who played Luke hates how Luke was portrayed in TLJ
I don't know what else you people want
I don't know what else you people want
That's not really the same thing though. ROTJ still happened, Palpatine still got thrown down a shaft to his apparent death. Whether he comes back as a clone, force ghost or a giant Jawa it doesn't erase anything.
Luke's a fuck up and died trying to redeem himself. Accept it and move on. Nothing J.J. does is going to change how he ended up on that planet.
It seems not simple when people seem to fail to understand what the main character arc of RotJ was and that in the movie itself Luke doesn't even have a character arc in the way everyone keeps claiming.
You actually enjoyed Starkiller? I think I can see the real problem here, and it's not with the movie's priorities...
Yeah and the man who played Han Solo wanted to die in RotJ. What's your Point?
I think your nephew murdering the entire order than you were trying to build is a little bit more than a stumble. Looking back, it's more or less the first failure we're shown that actually directly results in the loss of those he loves, as well as the children of other people entrusted to his care. Seems like that would fuck up a guy like Luke on a very personal level.
He doesn't seem like the guy to project his failures on others, he would fully blame himself. He's misguiding on thinking that means the answer is to completely remove himself, as if his attempt to rebuild the Jedi was what caused the evil and that intervening further would just make things work, but that doesn't seem like character assassination to me. More like acknowledging his faults and providing him a base from which to continuing growing.
Real talk this is probably the first time I have ever seen someone refer to Starkiller as "cool" unironically
Lol. When we last saw him in RotJ he was the only Jedi so I guess he was most powerful by default? Luke was never Anakin. He was never Jedi space Jesus with a midichlorian count higher than Yoda. The reason he was the chosen one who could bring balance to the force was because he could get through to Vader on an emotional level and help him redeem himself.
People need to get over this.For one it was Rey with a Light Saber vs Luke with a stick. At that point Luke was disconnected from force and in the depths of depression. For 90% of the fight Luke wasn't taking it seriously and Rey gets angry and catches him off guard for a moment. If Luke was invincible there would be no story.
TLJ's Luke is "correct" in a goofy arrested development type of way. It's akin to if episode XV shows Rey longing for her parents, or Finn uncommitted to the cause, or Poe ignoring his CO orders. Its not really how fairytales work. Luke's ability to control his negative emotions is kind of big deal and a distinction of lightside/darkside. It basically saves the day. Falling back on that is boring.
Also, as you point out, Luke was never exactly the model Jedi. So the idea that TLJ Luke represents the old ways is pretty silly.
And you may want to rewatch RotJ again. In TLJ Luke sacrifices himself and inspires others to fight. In RotJ Luke sacrifices himself and inspires another to sacrifice and saves his soul. Not sure about your recognition of noble acts.
Also, what does being the son of X type of man have to do with anything? Is Rey destined to abandon her kids? This is silly.
But ultimately TLJ does get Luke right. Before TLJ Luke was a hero, a legend and an inspiration. TLJ drags him through some mud and tries to examine the value of that kind of stuff only to ultimately come to the same conclusion we already knew. That Luke Skywalker is a hero, a legend and an inspiration.
But this whole rewriting history, "OT Luke always sucked, TLJ finally gave him worth" nonsense is all you need to know about these kind of discussions.
Also, as you point out, Luke was never exactly the model Jedi. So the idea that TLJ Luke represents the old ways is pretty silly.
And you may want to rewatch RotJ again. In TLJ Luke sacrifices himself and inspires others to fight. In RotJ Luke sacrifices himself and inspires another to sacrifice and saves his soul. Not sure about your recognition of noble acts.
Also, what does being the son of X type of man have to do with anything? Is Rey destined to abandon her kids? This is silly.
But ultimately TLJ does get Luke right. Before TLJ Luke was a hero, a legend and an inspiration. TLJ drags him through some mud and tries to examine the value of that kind of stuff only to ultimately come to the same conclusion we already knew. That Luke Skywalker is a hero, a legend and an inspiration.
But this whole rewriting history, "OT Luke always sucked, TLJ finally gave him worth" nonsense is all you need to know about these kind of discussions.
Every Jedi we've ever seen on screen is brought down by pretty major character flaws. It's practically a hallmark of the order by now.
I can't believe people still comes with:
- "you're wrong, Luke is a hero and TLJ is shit"
- Mark didn't like Luke in TLJ !!1!
- Luke would never try to hurt Ben
- Luke saved his father!
TLJ Luke > OT Luke
- "you're wrong, Luke is a hero and TLJ is shit"
- Mark didn't like Luke in TLJ !!1!
- Luke would never try to hurt Ben
- Luke saved his father!
TLJ Luke > OT Luke
The same Luke who thought Vader could be redeemed just gave up on Kylo. "Lost cause, not worth the time, let the Sith have the Galaxy instead."
Eh? Luke was caught off guard by Rey becoming angry enough to pull over the lightsaber and ignite it in his face. That would be like if in a friendly martial arts tournament one of the contestants suddenly pulled out a gun.
Rey didn't beat him, he was in full control of that fight the entire time. Even when he fell over he stopped himself with the force.
Obi-wan and Yoda had a justified perspective on Vader. Things Luke didn't see:
^
Obiwan and Yoda saw this personally, they didn't think Vader could be redeemed because they weren't coming at it from a fresh perspective.
Things Luke DID see:
His perspective on the idea of redemption changed after he personally lost everything he had built and witnessed the death and destruction firsthand. This all makes complete sense.
Sure, why not. Luke wasn't at all to blame for Vader. Vader was already Vader, there is no disillusionment from his own point of view to be had for Luke. With Kylo, he blamed himself and saw the horros firsthand. He felt Kylo's betrayal was his own failure. That he himself was the problem. He's not like "not worth the time" he's more like "I'm not the answer".
Its mostly just how hard the situation is to swallow.
Luke Skywalker, who's seen the worst of the worst turn back to the light, somehow knows without question that the son of his beloved sister and best friend, who has never really done anything wrong mind you, is 100% evil and beyond redemption. I mean that in itself flies in the face of the OT. Redemption is a big deal.
And the movie doesn't actually show us what Luke's seeing, you just have to take it's word for it that it is really bad. Probably because they knew there was nothing they could show that would validate that. Its poor storytelling.
Plus the movie kind wants it both ways. The reason Luke is off in exile and depressed and cut off from the force is because of his guilt in playing a part in pushing Ben to the dark. But then it also wants you to buy that Ben was bad from day one so its not really Luke's fault.
The whole set up just rings false.
That's not what really happened. Luke easily disarmed Rey. For him, it was over. For Rey, it wasn't. She summoned a lightsaber and then it was over.
To me, that scene was what really showed how broken Luke was. He knew what to do, he just didn't have the heart to do it. Not long after that, he tries to burn the tree down and again can't find it within himself. Then Yoda comes in to give him one last lesson, and we see GOAT-tier Luke show up again. Unfortunately, he waited so long he had to do something that killed him.
I have always hated the notion that Vader was "redeemed" after a lifetime of evil. For the first time in a long time, he showed regret, and did what he could to help his son. He didn't want Luke's life to mirror his own. His one act of kindness won't come as much consolation to the billions he subjugated and undoubtedly millions he had killed.
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How do you know it wasn't "Take Your Daughter to Work Day" on the Death Star?
Yeah, the scene didn't show Luke as somehow being weaker than Rey in the jedi power sense that the poster was lamenting.
But I do think there is room to say that Rey defeated him on the basis of strength of resolve. This isn't an RPG where the higher level Jedi necessarily wins the day, the force of will and resolve can be a more keenly felt power when it comes to ultimately winning the fight.
Rey didn't beat him, he was in full control of that fight the entire time. Even when he fell over he stopped himself with the force.
Obi-wan and Yoda had a justified perspective on Vader. Things Luke didn't see:
^
Obiwan and Yoda saw this personally, they didn't think Vader could be redeemed because they weren't coming at it from a fresh perspective.
Things Luke DID see:
His perspective on the idea of redemption changed after he personally lost everything he had built and witnessed the death and destruction firsthand. This all makes complete sense.
Luke only saw that because he pulled out his lightsaber on Ben.
You got a lot of points all over here but ultimately it can boil down to this. What was the character Arc in RotJ? Was it that he stopped just barely short of cutting his father's head off? That's an iffy Arc if it can even be considered one but that's the only one I can see.
Prior to that fight, most of Luke's development was offscreen before ESB and RotJ. When he shows up in Jabba's Palace he's calm, and very self-assured. But nothing about him suggested a sacrifice, just that he considered himself a Jedi (which is funny since he grows right back to Yoda afterwards to train more). So his change in being more confident isn't the arc since it already happened. And up until the scene I mentioned before with Vader, Luke's personality doesn't really change much more. He's confident he can help the Commandos on the moon of Endor, he's confident he can take on the Emperor without any fear, he's confident he can take on Vader. Then comes the end of the fight scene and he decides no to kill Vader. So what did he sacrifice and what others did he inspire?
And I mentioned Vader in many posts so I'll come back to him. Vader is the one who goes through a character arc in RotJ. Vader is the one who makes a sacrifice. Vader pushes from ESB to turn Skywalker and tries hard to not kill Skywalker. Then finally, right before he takes Luke to RotJ he talks to Luke and you begin to see he's not the same Vader he was, his interactions with Luke are changing him. Ultimately you realize Vader has sympathy for his son and despite his loyalty to the Emperor he's changing slowly. This all comes to a head when he sees Luke at the Emperor's mercy, clearly going to die. He's not inspired by Luke's actions to not kill him, he's changed because that's his son. Despite everything he's done and the evil he created, he's still Luke's father. It's why he asks right before the end to have his helmet taken off so he can see him with his own eyes.
Actually thinking on it, RotJ is the subversive movie, not TLJ. it was deconstructive, but nothing at all subversive. But in RotJ the main villain from all the movies has the character arc. Vader is the one who kill the Emperor, not Luke like we all expected.
The fuck?
He not only literally became a space nazi but he became THE space nazi. Literally within the first TWO minutes of seeing him onscreen he orders the massacre of an entire village for no reason.
Definitely this. Luke saw that the destructive power of the Force had overwhelmed his best efforts to contain it and direct it towards productive ends and said, "the hell with this, I can't control the Force, you can't control it... I don't see how anybody can."
