Luke is a hero. The Last Jedi is a piece of shit that will shortly be retconned to the dumpster where it belongs. This thread is welcome to join it.
ROTJ was more about Vader's character than Luke's. Why do you think the weird suggested extended viewing of Star Wars movies suggest ANH, ESB, then go back to AOTC & ROTS before doing ROTJ? RotJ's climatic point isn't Luke's climatic triumph and character moment, it's Vader's.Yeah, he's a whiny shit in the beginning of the OT.
Then he's not because he undergoes what we call a "character arc" and learns some things - including that his masters were wrong about Vader.
He is vindicated for believing his father is good and refusing to kill him, the way Obi Wan wanted him to.
The sequels then revert this character growth by making him contemplate killing his own nephew and making him as mopey as he used to be.
Justifying TLJ's character assassination by cloaking it in "early Luke arc" characterization is a huge misreading of the text and how you were supposed to come away feeling about Luke by the end of ROTJ.
He is vindicated for believing his father is good and refusing to kill him, the way Obi Wan wanted him to.
BEN
When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was
amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to
train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well
as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has had terrible consequences for the
galaxy.
LUKE
There's still good in him.
BEN
I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be
done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.
LUKE
I can't do it, Ben.
BEN
You cannot escape your destiny.
LUKE
I tried to stop him once. I couldn't do it.
BEN
Vader humbled you when first you met him, Luke... but that experience
was part of your training. It taught you, among other things, the value
of patience. Had you not been so impatient to defeat Vader then, you
could have finished your training here with Yoda. You would have been
prepared.
LUKE
But I had to help my friends.
BEN (grinning at Luke's indignation)
And did you help them? It was they who had to save you. You achieved
little by rushing back prematurely, I fear.
LUKE (with sadness)
I found out Darth Vader was my father.
BEN
To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side
- the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest
door - for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what
he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm. You're
no longer so reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And now,
you must face Darth Vader again!
LUKE
I can't kill my own father.
BEN
Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.
They're bringing Palpatine back they can do anything they want.Doesn't matter what happens in the next film it's not going to retcon Luke leaving everyone behind or contemplating killing Ben. I really don't get what people expect from 9 where it's suddenly going to change what happened before it. J.J. might do Luke a better turn in some people's eyes but TLJ is still going to exist lol
As a Catholic I'm reminded of this scene by what's happening in Paris today.
Kylo was literally a grown ass man.
People were exposed to over 3 decades of EU material where Luke didn't do much of anything besides be the SW equivalent of goku. A near flawless man who did hilariously ludicrous things with the force. Essentially, everyone in the audience was as big a fanboy/girl as Rey. We hear Luke Skywalker and our reaction is the same as Rey'sYeah Luke was characterized fine. No idea where anyone is coming up with "They messed up myy Luke!" unless they're thinking about the EU.
And anyone who complains about action scene choreography in TLJ needs a rewatch. TLJ looks like some John Wick level combat in comparison.
The Last Jedi killed all the hype I had for Episode 9. Not being hyperbolic here.
And the reason why The Last Jedi killed all my hype for Episode 9 was precisely for they way Luke was portrayed. Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever. It really hurt when Rey was able to defeat him on the island.
And Luke should not have been a projection in the final scene against Kylo. He should have been there, showing lots of Jedi skills... maybe defeating all those AT-AT vehicles by himself using the Force or something.
Unless there's something in the new EU that's different, no one ever said this and even before the movie it should have been clear this would never be the case.Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever.
a cool character? of course
Then read the EU, I don't know what else to tell you. The EU is the EU and this is this. No one gets mad at the Harry Poter series for not following the fanfiction. Not sure why Star Wars suddenly needs to do that.EU Luke is a billion times better. Wise, godlike and does what a badass Uncle would do.
They're bringing Palpatine back they can do anything they want.
It seems not simple when people seem to fail to understand what the main character arc of RotJ was and that in the movie itself Luke doesn't even have a character arc in the way everyone keeps claiming.Nah, your wrong. Luke was a completely different character by RotJ and he grew into a good Jedi.
Rian Johnson got the character wrong. Simple. It wasn't awful, but it wasn't right.
Based on WHAT?Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever.
You actually enjoyed Starkiller? I think I can see the real problem here, and it's not with the movie's priorities...
Yeah and the man who played Han Solo wanted to die in RotJ. What's your Point?the man who played Luke hates how Luke was portrayed in TLJ
I don't know what else you people want
I think your nephew murdering the entire order than you were trying to build is a little bit more than a stumble. Looking back, it's more or less the first failure we're shown that actually directly results in the loss of those he loves, as well as the children of other people entrusted to his care. Seems like that would fuck up a guy like Luke on a very personal level.No, it was a character assassination that threw away his Hero's Journey. He gives up after one stumbling point and instead believes its OK to allow the Galaxy to descend back into darkness.
Yeah and the man who played Han Solo wanted to die in RotJ. What's your Point?
Lol. When we last saw him in RotJ he was the only Jedi so I guess he was most powerful by default? Luke was never Anakin. He was never Jedi space Jesus with a midichlorian count higher than Yoda. The reason he was the chosen one who could bring balance to the force was because he could get through to Vader on an emotional level and help him redeem himself.Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever. It really hurt when Rey was able to defeat him on the island.
I think your nephew murdering the entire order than you were trying to build is a little bit more than a stumble. Looking back, it's more or less the first failure we're shown that actually directly results in the loss of those he loves, as well as the children of other people entrusted to his care. Seems like that would fuck up a guy like Luke on a very personal level.
He doesn't seem like the guy to project his failures on others, he would fully blame himself. He's misguiding on thinking that means the answer is to completely remove himself, as if his attempt to rebuild the Jedi was what caused the evil and that intervening further would just make things work, but that doesn't seem like character assassination to me. More like acknowledging his faults and providing him a base from which to continuing growing.
Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever. It really hurt when Rey was able to defeat him on the island.
Rey didn't beat him, he was in full control of that fight the entire time. Even when he fell over he stopped himself with the force.Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever. It really hurt when Rey was able to defeat him on the island.
Obi-wan and Yoda had a justified perspective on Vader. Things Luke didn't see:The same Luke who thought Vader could be redeemed just gave up on Kylo. "Lost cause, not worth the time, let the Sith have the Galaxy instead."
Sure, why not. Luke wasn't at all to blame for Vader. Vader was already Vader, there is no disillusionment from his own point of view to be had for Luke. With Kylo, he blamed himself and saw the horros firsthand. He felt Kylo's betrayal was his own failure. That he himself was the problem. He's not like "not worth the time" he's more like "I'm not the answer".The same Luke who thought Vader could be redeemed just gave up on Kylo. "Lost cause, not worth the time, let the Sith have the Galaxy instead."
I see the point about Vader mentioned frequently and I am not sure I understand it. A lot of people say that their Luke wouldn't have even considered murdering Ben because he saw the good in Vader and turned him away from the dark side. I don't agree with this at all. First of all, it ignores that fact that the Luke who turned Vader is far younger and probably more idealistic than older Luke who thought about killing Ben. Ask a 60 year old if they are the same person as they were when they were 30 and you'll probably be surprised by the answer. Secondly, the scene where he considers taking Ben out explicitly states that ALL Luke saw was pain and destruction. He saw no conflict, he saw only tragedy and given all the tragedy Luke experienced up to that point, it makes sense he might not react favorably to seeing more death and destruction of those he loved. With Vader, he constantly feels the conflict, the good in Vader. He tells this to Obi-Wan and Vader himself in ROTJ.
So, I don't really see why one has anything to do with the other. If anything, him experiencing so much pain and death before the Ben incident explains why he would act in such a way, and him feeling shame and guilt about it literally a split second after he ignites the lightsaber is 100% Luke. That's growth.
And the reason why The Last Jedi killed all my hype for Episode 9 was precisely for they way Luke was portrayed. Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever. It really hurt when Rey was able to defeat him on the island.
Luke Skywalker, who's seen the worst of the worst turn back to the light, somehow knows without question that the son of his beloved sister and best friend, who has never really done anything wrong mind you, is 100% evil and beyond redemption. I mean that in itself flies in the face of the OT. Redemption is a big deal.
Yeah, the scene didn't show Luke as somehow being weaker than Rey in the jedi power sense that the poster was lamenting.That's not what really happened. Luke easily disarmed Rey. For him, it was over. For Rey, it wasn't. She summoned a lightsaber and then it was over.
To me, that scene was what really showed how broken Luke was. He knew what to do, he just didn't have the heart to do it. Not long after that, he tries to burn the tree down and again can't find it within himself. Then Yoda comes in to give him one last lesson, and we see GOAT-tier Luke show up again. Unfortunately, he waited so long he had to do something that killed him.
Rey didn't beat him, he was in full control of that fight the entire time. Even when he fell over he stopped himself with the force.
Obi-wan and Yoda had a justified perspective on Vader. Things Luke didn't see:
^
Obiwan and Yoda saw this personally, they didn't think Vader could be redeemed because they weren't coming at it from a fresh perspective.
Things Luke DID see:
His perspective on the idea of redemption changed after he personally lost everything he had built and witnessed the death and destruction firsthand. This all makes complete sense.
You got a lot of points all over here but ultimately it can boil down to this. What was the character Arc in RotJ? Was it that he stopped just barely short of cutting his father's head off? That's an iffy Arc if it can even be considered one but that's the only one I can see.TLJ's Luke is "correct" in a goofy arrested development type of way. It's akin to if episode XV shows Rey longing for her parents, or Finn uncommitted to the cause, or Poe ignoring his CO orders. Its not really how fairytales work. Luke's ability to control his negative emotions is kind of big deal and a distinction of lightside/darkside. It basically saves the day. Falling back on that is boring.
Also, as you point out, Luke was never exactly the model Jedi. So the idea that TLJ Luke represents the old ways is pretty silly.
And you may want to rewatch RotJ again. In TLJ Luke sacrifices himself and inspires others to fight. In RotJ Luke sacrifices himself and inspires another to sacrifice and saves his soul. Not sure about your recognition of noble acts.
Also, what does being the son of X type of man have to do with anything? Is Rey destined to abandon her kids? This is silly.
But ultimately TLJ does get Luke right. Before TLJ Luke was a hero, a legend and an inspiration. TLJ drags him through some mud and tries to examine the value of that kind of stuff only to ultimately come to the same conclusion we already knew. That Luke Skywalker is a hero, a legend and an inspiration.
But this whole rewriting history, "OT Luke always sucked, TLJ finally gave him worth" nonsense is all you need to know about these kind of discussions.
The fuck?Luke Skywalker, who's seen the worst of the worst turn back to the light, somehow knows without question that the son of his beloved sister and best friend, who has never really done anything wrong mind you, is 100% evil and beyond redemption
Definitely this. Luke saw that the destructive power of the Force had overwhelmed his best efforts to contain it and direct it towards productive ends and said, "the hell with this, I can't control the Force, you can't control it... I don't see how anybody can."He's not like "not worth the time" he's more like "I'm not the answer".