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Rewatching Star Wars 4-6: TLJ got Luke Right.
- Thread starter Drek
- Start date
Luke was baited into it with manipulation by an opponent with a weapon.
Kylo was asleep.
The fuck?
He literally became not just a space nazi but THE space nazi.
He'd never done anything prior to Luke going into his bedroom.
Add Luke to that ghost lineup and I think we've got ourselves another ending ;)Real ending of Luke story :
He saw a force vision of what Kylo would become, (that came true btw), he reacted on instinct to said vision before immediately coming back to his senses.
You don't do something that devastating if you weren't already messed up in some way. The reason Luke went to check on him in the first place was because he knew something was up.
People's hate boner for Rian is so weird. What about TLJ characterization of Luke went against what JJ set up in TFA? Luke let the First Order run wild for 6+ years, didn't stop 5 planets from blowing up and let Han die. Where was Luke? Was he supposed to be deep in Jedi meditation and just lost track of time? Dude was sulking on an island at the end of TFA.
At the end of the day Luke was always an imperfect emotional boy scout. Between Empire and Return of the Jedi, less than a year went by. Dude was not a good Jedi by RotJ but his connection with Vader allowed him to bring balance to the force. Just like with Anakin Luke started his training too late in life. He was never going to be the perfect zen figure like Yoda or Qui-Gon Jinn because he never learned to control his emotions fully. Thus how we got his failing with Kylo. He had a moment of weakness were he contemplated killing his nephew because he had a premonition of what was to come. Luke didn't go through with it but he threw himself in exile out of guilt for allowing it to get to that point. Add to the fact that while in exile he learns all the shit the jedi's did during the prequels and Lukes depression for not only wasting his life trying to join this broken system but dragging his nephew into makes sense.
This all comes from a casual fan who only watches the films and not any of the EU stuff but Lukes character tracks.
Yeah because actors know best when it comes to character arcs and scripts and everything in general. I adore Mark but nah his idea of what he should be was clouded by being a god in the old EU. There's nothing in the original trilogy or new trilogy to point towards that.
Your interpretation of Luke's character isn't fact, it's just what you believe to be the case based on your own judgement (and what TLJ told you). The idea that any character flaws are what that character is 'forever' is just as equally valid as the idea that characters shouldn't repeat the flaws of their past when they've already grown past them; saying that either is objectively 'correct' is a fool's errand in the end because you cannot factually 'prove' anything in regards to who Luke Skywalker 'is.'
Obviously Leia is going to be force sensitive, you think she sat on her ass doing nothing for thirty years?
It looked stupid as hell above any space fantasy logic one can throw at it
You do realize Luke was close to killing Vader before he regained his composure? Luke has always been a very impulsive character, it's a major flaw of his. It's why it's understandable that he had that 1 second thought of killing Ben until realizing that it was a stupid move. Unfortunately for him, Ben woke up and interprets that event differently.
Luke was baited into it with manipulation by an opponent with a weapon.
Kylo was asleep.
It might make sense to you but it does not to me. The character of Luke from the OT was a hopeful and positive one by the end of RotJ. He strived to see the best in people, not the worst, and the Luke from RotJ would not have tried to kill the son of Han and Leia in his sleep. He also would not have given up hope and fled to hide on a faraway planet in solitude to leave his friends and family to fend for themselves. Not in my opinion at least, and not in Mark's opinion either I might add.
Maybe you enjoyed Luke from TLJ, but he was terribly disappointing to me. It felt like Luke's character had been written by someone who hated the character IMHO.
I agree it makes sense for those who say it does. It was just written poorly as shit. Their failure was in selling me on half their ideas in The Last Jedi.
I guess that kind of contextualizes some of the complaints for me in a different way. I was wondering why so many people saw Luke as an interesting hero and wanted something that sounded really corny and unnuanced to me.
Kylo burned down the Jedi temple, gathered the future Knights of Ren and massacred the remaining students that night. It's implied the Kylo was already scheming something before Luke came into his bedroom. Luke just moved up the timetable.
I love Hammilbbut he has the most ridiculous ideas. He thought joe would randomly show up on starkiller base to fight Ben.
I think I'm OK with Luke being a failure at the start of TLJ. However, the Luke at the end of ROTJ would not have ignited his lightsaber over his sleeping nephew. People can talk about the "force vision" he received but I hope people can understand that there's just an absolutely massive leap between having a vision of something possibly occurring in the future and then pulling a weapon on your own blood while they're sleeping.
Star Wars has a shit ton of unrealistic and silly moments but Leia using the force to pull herself into the ship is where you draw the line?
Yet both times Luke stopped juuust short of killing the other person with a lightsaber ignited in his hand.
I thought it was really out of place. Even people around me watching the movie felt the same way.
Luke's actions or inactions depending on how you look at it are why that force vision came true. I actually really liked that it was Luke that pushed him off the edge in a moment of weakness. Snoke (or Palpatine?) might have had their tendrils in him but it was Luke that made him into what he is.
The only parts of the film I liked were the scenes with Luke, Rey and Kylo. I only wish the rest was that good.
Luke is a good person who can be reckless and often panics when he's afraid.
ESB: Suddenly abandons his Jedi training after he sees a vision of Han and Leia on Bespin, falls into Vader's trap, loses his hand and barely escapes capture.
ROTJ: The Emperor taunts him which causes him to lash out and try to decapitate him, Vader has to stop him. Later when Vader threatens to turn Leia he attacks in a blind rage, cuts his fathers arm off and is seconds away from killing him before he comes to his senses.
TLJ: A vision of his nephew's murderous future frightens him into drawing his lightsaber which he immediately regrets.
I don't really see any inconsistency in the character. Sure you can say that OT Luke would never give up, and he probably wouldn't, but 30 years have passed and Luke made a terrible mistake that destroyed his academy and pushed his nephew to the dark side. It's understandable that he would become depressed and think the galaxy was better off without him. Eventually he got over it, accepted his mistake and rejoined the fight in a tremendous display of his skill with the Force. I thought it was a poignant and bittersweet way to handle the character.
ESB: Suddenly abandons his Jedi training after he sees a vision of Han and Leia on Bespin, falls into Vader's trap, loses his hand and barely escapes capture.
ROTJ: The Emperor taunts him which causes him to lash out and try to decapitate him, Vader has to stop him. Later when Vader threatens to turn Leia he attacks in a blind rage, cuts his fathers arm off and is seconds away from killing him before he comes to his senses.
TLJ: A vision of his nephew's murderous future frightens him into drawing his lightsaber which he immediately regrets.
I don't really see any inconsistency in the character. Sure you can say that OT Luke would never give up, and he probably wouldn't, but 30 years have passed and Luke made a terrible mistake that destroyed his academy and pushed his nephew to the dark side. It's understandable that he would become depressed and think the galaxy was better off without him. Eventually he got over it, accepted his mistake and rejoined the fight in a tremendous display of his skill with the Force. I thought it was a poignant and bittersweet way to handle the character.
You know people change in 30 years? How do you know what Luke would or wouldn't do? I get shocked daily how many good people I grew up with turn out to be garbage later on in life. One of my best friends growing up is serving life for shooting someone in the head. When I was told, I didn't believe it. People change.
So does pushing a Star Destroyer into a force field with a ship, yet that scene in Rogue One gets barely any notice except for being "cool".
Which is exactly the situation I just explained rings false.
Nothing Kylo does is worse than Vader.
Between ESB and RotJ Luke had less than a year of actual Jedi training. I don't know why people think he'd become a zen jedi master. Like Anakin before him Luke was too old to start his training. At that age Luke was never going to be able to master his emotions.
I swear people only paid attention to Kylo's version of events and nothing else. Luke didn't attempt to murder Kylo. He instinctually reacted to a force vision of death and destruction. Force visions are incredibly visceral and realistic:
Luke's initial instinct passed in an instant.
That Luke hadn't experienced the tragedy that his older incarnation would, we don't know how we'd react to trauma unless we experience it ourselves.
Luke never saw the things Vader did, hell I don't think he even saw the dude force choke anybody. He personally experienced what kylo had done.
Glover wasn't a good Lando, he was a good impersonator.
But yeah, Luke at the end of Jedi was not the Lule shown in TLJ. The Luke in TLJ is a new hope Luke.
But yeah, Luke at the end of Jedi was not the Lule shown in TLJ. The Luke in TLJ is a new hope Luke.
No it didn't.
Luke refused to kill his father, that's when he became a Jedi.
TLJ shows him almost murdering his nephew in his sleep.
Luke refused to kill his father, that's when he became a Jedi.
TLJ shows him almost murdering his nephew in his sleep.
Precisely. People have deified Luke Skywalker and almost forgot that he has human flaws that are rather consistent.
So? Both acts are still impulsive. Being baited into almost killing someone is just as bad as almost killing someone because you were reacting negatively to visions of your pupil being the next incarnation of death, and destruction.
Hopefully JJ will erase everything that happened in TLJ.
Real ending of Luke story :
Based on TFA, Abrams is a hack so you may get your wish
It's also fact that Luke standing over Ben with his saber drawn pushed Kylo over the edge. That's why Luke's so torn up. He partly caused it.
Again the film is trying to have it both ways.
Yet we see kylo as a man, it's clearly Adam Driver, right there in the scene, very clearly an adult, I suppose kylo is a child during the battle on crait too because Luke calls him a kid,
it's almost like adults tend to refer to people half their age as kids. People have by far the strangest reading of dialogue when it comes to the last two films like, rational thought at zero. Like I know we got three movies full of terrible stilted dialogue so bad that literally every line is meme status but good grief. :|
Luke whining about the sacred Jedi texts was the kind of nostalgia I needed but didn't know I needed
totally agree, Luke in The Last Jedi was pitch fucking perfect
totally agree, Luke in The Last Jedi was pitch fucking perfect
Nah dude, this is an extremely cynical reading of the character in order to justify TLJ's bullshittery and character assassination.
TLJ portrayed Luke as a coward and a quitter who was willing to abandon his friends and family. That's utter bullshit.
TLJ portrayed Luke as a coward and a quitter who was willing to abandon his friends and family. That's utter bullshit.
Hopefully JJ will erase everything that happened in TLJ.
Real ending of Luke story :
This right here.
Glover's performance as Lando was weird and dude had an accent and lost an accent at will. It wasn't great.
We have no idea he if actually strove to see the best in people because he spent RotJ only trying to redeem Vader and the only reason he was doing that was because he could, and I quote, "sense the good in Vader." Bearing in mind Vader at that point was responsible for a ton of horrific War Crimes in addition to the horrible things he was still trying to do (like help create another Planet Destroying Weapon) and it only took Luke to just "sense" the good to suddenly have his mind made up on Vader.
So what did he sense about his Nephew?
well that certainly wasn't the good in him.
If Hamil has some fanfiction then you go read that, but Hamil's opinion should hold so much weight. That should also be especially true when he's been so dodgy on what he's actually trying to say and everyone only takes 1 or two words of what he does say.
And again, if we wrote movies based on what actors wanted, Han Solo would have died in Return of the Jedi.
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So is he the same or is he different?
To me it makes more sense that Luke would be even more in control of his emotions in his old age but still have his belief in the good in people since he's seen it first hand in the most vile person.
But what I'm supposed to believe is that Luke is still struggling with his emotions from his youth but has lost his belief in people.
It's not an easy sell.
Luke is supposed to be like Kenshin's master. OP and behind the scenes and rarely used because of how badass he is. When he does show up, asses will be whupped. Instead we get the wack chicken wuss Uncle who runs away from his problems and let's the whole Galaxy go to crap until it takes 99% of the republic to die before he finally decides to do something. Luke didn't die in TLJ, he teleported away to another planet to cry some more.
I don't think so. Luke is responsible and he tells Ben he failed him and he's sorry.
Ben hadn't yet acted upon his dark thoughts. If Luke hadn't pushed him over the edge, it is possible that he never would have. The battle over Ben was between Snoke in one corner and Luke, Han, and Leia in the other.
Rey correctly points out to Luke that he made the choice for Ben, when Ben had, in fact, done nothing yet. (whether you accept Luke would need to learn this lesson is another story).
There is no doubt that the scene in the hut occurred before Ben's betrayal, so it is then also true that that event was the actual fork in the road for Ben. Regardless of whether or not Ben's betrayal and and burning would have happened, Luke igniting the saber DID happen.
So connecting the two events creates a fait accompli in a deterministic way, and further proves Ben's "damnation", as opposed to creating sympathy for him, the fact that the first of those occurrences (Luke ignition) was predicated on a latter occurrence that hadn't even yet happened (but had been insinuated to Luke via visions) creates a big problem for Luke, and I believe was definitely intended by the writers.
That problem concerns free will versus determinism. A classic conundrum. Yoda says "difficult to see the future is", "always in motion." Rey redirects those truths to Luke and to Ben. Luke made a huge error, fell into the trap laid by Snoke. He's responsible.
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