The audience disappointment with TLJ Luke failing to live up to the legend of the OT is very meta really
TLJ Luke does live up to his legend. That's kind of the point.
Are you claiming TLJ Luke doesn't live up to his legend?
The audience disappointment with TLJ Luke failing to live up to the legend of the OT is very meta really
Even if you want to say that JJ did set up Luke being a coward (which I will never agree with) it was Rian's choice to run with it and make him a cowardly suicidal asshole.You just assumed he was out somewhere learning some Jedi secrets or something but being a coward and walking away from everything is a set-up carried over from TFA. Rian Johnson didn't create that set-up, he simply built off it.
Yeap. I'm for an "old miser" Luke who begins to lose faith in the Jedi way or whatever... but they took it way too far. He would have been kicked out of his emo phase as soon as it was necessary to save his friends but in this it really seems like he doesn't give a shit about anyoneNah dude, this is an extremely cynical reading of the character in order to justify TLJ's bullshittery and character assassination.
TLJ portrayed Luke as a coward and a quitter who was willing to abandon his friends and family. That's utter bullshit.
"Eyes of a scared boy" does not literally mean "this character was a child during this scene please ignore that you're very clearly looking at a grown ass man" Like you realize Kylo is 29 right? The youngest age he could be during that scene is 23, which from the perspective of a man who at the time, is 45, is a boy.Eyes of a scared boy is not see you around kid. This is some weak spin.
The exact length of Luke pulling out his lightsaber, getting angered at the thought of losing everything, and igniting it before immediately coming back to his senses is 12 seconds.Lol you cut like half of it where he slowly pulls his saber off his belt and it still fails to look like a flash of instinct over in an instant. What exactly is he contemplating all that time with his saber in hand before he ignites it?
IIRC Rian felt that it made Luke seem a bit too mean. I agree, to me it's a perfect scene that perfectly encapsulates everything wrong with Luke's ideology up to that point, while also reinforcing the type of people Rey and Luke are. At that moment she's devastated because someone she, (and we), have been fangirling over for years just isn't who she, (and we) thought he was.I will never understand why this scene was cut. Firstly, it shows that Rey finally GOT to Luke with that last line, because immediately following this Luke reconnects with the Force. Secondly, it provides better justification for Rey to open up to Ben after being so thoroughly disillusioned by Luke's games. I really, really hate that they cut this scene.
What is there not to agree with? What do you call walking away from everything while the nephew you once trained runs rampant across the galaxy with The First Order?Even if you want to say that JJ did set up Luke being a coward (which I will never agree with) it was Rian's choice to run with it and make him a cowardly suicidal asshole.
Learning Han was killed should have really reawakened the Jedi Master and good man within Luke.Yeap. I'm for an "old miser" Luke who begins to lose faith in the Jedi way or whatever... but they took it way too far. He would have been kicked out of his emo phase as soon as it was necessary to save his friends but in this it really seems like he doesn't give a shit about anyone
They retconned Luke's character growth in the OT to own the fans. #subverted
Also lol at saying the fans were dumb for wanting op Luke while ignoring op ass Rey.
No, i'm saying that that's a good scene that shouldn't have been cut. Frankly the vast vast majority of scenes shouldn't have been cut but Rian Johnson was concerned about runtime.
Nothing got retconned. Also retcons don't fall under subversive. Your use of both those things is blatantly wrong.They retconned Luke's character growth in the OT to own the fans. #subverted
Yes he does. He literally throws his weapon away and would rather have the emperor kill him than continue to fight or kill his father.It seems not simple when people seem to fail to understand what the main character arc of RotJ was and that in the movie itself Luke doesn't even have a character arc in the way everyone keeps claiming.
oh boy...here we go..
Right lol. Luke's depiction in TLJ was so bad it actually went back in time and altered the events of the OT!Nothing got retconned. Also retcons don't fall under subversive. Your use of both those things is blatantly wrong.
That's not an Arc, he started the movie saying he wouldn't kill his father. That arc happened outside of the film entirely.Yes he does. He literally throws his weapon away and would rather have the emperor kill him than continue to fight or kill his father.
That person just wanted a clever cool zing moment for their "#subversive" meme, didn't matter if they could set it up properly or not.Right lol. Luke's depiction in TLJ was so bad it actually went back in time and altered the events of the OT!
There's nothing OP about Rey. So far she has, mind tricked a stormtrooper, pulled things with the force, and involuntarily used the force on occasion during dire situations. If Rey was actually OP, then she wouldn't have been thrown around like a ragdoll by Snoke. She literally couldn't resist a single thing Snoke was doing. And the film made it a point to show that she could resist Kylo. Also, Luke is shown to be much more capable in this film, they just don't base his entire character around his power level and that's why it's great is because they focused on his characterization and having him be a real flawed character. OT Luke couldn't do something like this:They retconned Luke's character growth in the OT to own the fans. #subverted
Also lol at saying the fans were dumb for wanting op Luke while ignoring op ass Rey.
Exactly. Great post. For all of Luke's faults, he was never a coward. That bit of character assassination is the mortal sin of the Sequels. Something that will always color them.Putting himself in harms way to save others (particularly friends/family) is intrinsic to Luke's character.
Yes he starts off weak and whiny, but that's the part of him that changes and develops. His character arc spans all three movies.
He never loses his 'faith in his friends' and his drive to protect them. That is his core, and it's thematically central to the OT. The villain even spells this out to the audience, and assumes it's not a strength, but a weakness (it's both). Taking that away from Luke without proper development is obviously going to rub some people the wrong way
In the OT, Luke:
Runs back to the farm to save his Aunt and Uncle despite being told not to (fails)
Runs off to Alderaan to help a beautiful woman he's never met with no understanding of what he's getting into
Is the only character to run towards Obi-Wan to help him despite being told not to, refuses to leave until Ben's ghost tells him to go
Takes on the Death Star with no understanding of what he's getting into
Does all he can to pull Dak out from under that AT-AT (avenges him on foot)
Abandon's his training in order to save his friends despite being told not to (fails) with no understanding of what he's getting into
Spends months training and plotting to save the friend he failed to protect
Keeps his promise to another friend, and returns to watch him die
Gives himself up to the Emperor, to save his friends and their mission, his fate uncertain
Gives himself up to the Emperor, in an act of selflessness for his father, his fate uncertain
Luke is selfless to a fault, values interpersonal connections and causes over his own well being, and is motivated to develop into a better person solely by his failings to help those he cares about. These are intrinsic qualities that do not change in his character throughout the OT. Rather, his arc is him learning from his failures and growing stronger so that he can better serve his desire to protect those he loves. His heart is always in the right place, but his ability is lacking and he's a bit too reckless.
TLJ did not get Luke wrong because he should be space Goku. Luke was never painted as an amazing warrior. It's his friendship and his selflessness that drive his victories.
TLJ got Luke wrong because he gave up on the galaxy, and more importantly on his friends, which is particularly jarring considering he's giving up on a situation he feels responsible for creating. It got Luke wrong because of a silly contrivance where he almost murders his nephew, which would've been best not shown.
Yes, Luke can have regrets, he can fail, he can flounder, he can have moments of weakness. He did all of these things throughout the OT. He shouldn't be perfect. But we still expect him to try, and to correct his mistakes. If you're going to take away his selflessness, you're going to need to do a lot of legwork to get the audience on board.
What they did to Luke would be similar to a Leia who is no longer a part of, nor cares about, the rebellion. Maybe she's lounging in a lazy river on Coruscant, sipping mimosas, fat off her government pensions from the New Republic, part of the faction that downplays the impending threat of the FO. Yes, somebody could have written such a Leia into the ST. After all, it's been 30 years and 'people change'. But take away the core of her character, the spunky can-do attitude and devotion to her cause, and fans of the character are going to want answers
Neither did TLJ Luke.
I mean...I'm not sure why it's Johnson's fault that people think Luke's a coward who did nothing. Like, what did you expect when JJ Abrams decided that Luke was missing for decades? That he was a secret badass but decided to fuck off to a secluded planet and not deal with the problem he created because....?
The Destruction of Luke's Jedi Temple happened between 28 and 32 ABY and the events of TFA and TLJ happen in 34 ABY.I mean...I'm not sure why it's Johnson's fault that people think Luke's a coward who did nothing. Like, what did you expect when JJ Abrams decided that Luke was missing for decades? That he was a secret badass but decided to fuck off to a secluded planet and not deal with the problem he created because....?
I mean...I'm not sure why it's Johnson's fault that people think Luke's a coward who did nothing. Like, what did you expect when JJ Abrams decided that Luke was missing for decades? That he was a secret badass but decided to fuck off to a secluded planet and not deal with the problem he created because....?
The Destruction of Luke's Jedi Temple happened between 28 and 32 ABY and the events of TFA and TLJ happen in 34 ABY.
He was not gone for decades.
I respectfully disagree with you.
In the OT that's how Luke started off, he was a cocky character who wanted an adventure. However throughout ANH to ROTJ he vastly grew and changed from that.
When he meets Yoda for the first time this is EXACTLY why Yoda is "acting" like such an annoying pestering creature toward him, he's testing Luke to see his true character (this is why it made NO SENSE to have Yoda act like a bumbling idiot in TLJ, that is NOT YODA , he was just acting that way to teach Luke a lesson). Of course Luke fails miserably, he sees Yoda at first as a pest an annoyance and doesn't treat him with respect or dignity. Yoda takes him off his high horse quickly when he finally reveals that he is the one he's looking for (and he no longer acts like this during the movie or in the prequels).
Luke forgo's his full training because Han and Leia need his help, THIS is the true Luke, he will stand up for his friends, he has no problems helping them in their time of need, he doesn't abandon them. Even at great peril to himself, which is what it cost him when he fought Vader in ESB and lost his hand.
Then in ROTJ Luke comes off as a much more matured character, he's not as whiny or self centered in the least. He stands up to the emperor, someone far faaaaar more powerful then Kylo.
He did NOT come off like the type of person that would run from danger or problems, he came off like someone that would try to fix them, at any cost, even if it meant his life.
I imagined he was in mourning. Maybe due to the loss of a child, which he would then find (metaphorically) in Rey.
I actually am fine with RJ's treatment of Luke, just wanted to answer your question.
Bruh, Snoke is looking for Skywalker in the movie so no he couldn't have been beholden by Snoke. And we see in the last scene of the movie that he's alone and not under the control of anyone. wtf????
The movie literally makes it out to be a bad choice on his part.The biggest flaw of TLJ is the movie itself. The movie does not know what it wants to be. Luke being a coward, suicidal, and grumpy old fart living alone is a terrible depiction of his early heroic figure.
"He was just waiting for the grandchild of his master, Ben Kenobi. Because fuck I love my stories to be as neatly tied up as possible. Because that's what SW is about at the end of the day, what specific bloodline someone has and how we can fit them on the force power level scale"I mean...I'm not sure why it's Johnson's fault that people think Luke's a coward who did nothing. Like, what did you expect when JJ Abrams decided that Luke was missing for decades? That he was a secret badass but decided to fuck off to a secluded planet and not deal with the problem he created because....?
Tbh. I think a lot of people just wanted Luke to be chilling on an Island for like 6 years gathering energy for a spirit bomb to throw at Snoke.I mean...I'm not sure why it's Johnson's fault that people think Luke's a coward who did nothing. Like, what did you expect when JJ Abrams decided that Luke was missing for decades? That he was a secret badass but decided to fuck off to a secluded planet and not deal with the problem he created because....?
Luke makes a point saying that the state of the Galaxy is a result of his lineage and the Jedi/Sith orders. That's pretty decent motivation to remove yourself from the picture.No, it was a character assassination that threw away his Hero's Journey. He gives up after one stumbling point and instead believes its OK to allow the Galaxy to descend back into darkness.
Yup. And that's why I remain unconvinced by arguments to the contrary. As you said, Luke never faced a similar challenge or failure in the OT so claiming that he would never respond the way he did in TLJ is kinda .. baseless.Luke never faced a challenge as big as being responsible for turning his nephew into the Dark Side, though. Through the whole OT, he could always trust in the "force" to get things right, especially recovering his father, but it wasn't the same when he failed with Ben and then the cycle started to repeat.
I feel like all of those are reasons as to why he's as completely and utterly devastated as he is.He never loses his 'faith in his friends' and his drive to protect them.
Luke is selfless to a fault, values interpersonal connections and causes over his own well being, and is motivated to develop into a better person solely by his failings to help those he cares about.
It's his friendship and his selflessness that drive his victories.
TLJ got Luke wrong because he gave up on the galaxy, and more importantly on his friends, which is particularly jarring considering he's giving up on a situation he feels responsible for creating. It got Luke wrong because of a silly contrivance where he almost murders his nephew, which would've been best not shown.
Ok, that still doesn't answer the question. Like:
Ok, let's say this is all true. Why then, is Luke missing from the beginning of TFA until the end? Why is Luke, someone that would try to fix problems at any cost, in the bumfuck middle of nowhere on a planet so obscure no one has the complete map for it? Why is Johnson the one who "ruined" your character when your character you thought was ruined far before that? This is what gets to me about this. That TLJ somehow "destroyed Luke" when I can easily point to TFA that this is the only conclusion you can reach without causing a massive plot hole.
Honestly I am too. I like Luke's portrayal.
Bruh, Snoke is looking for Skywalker in the movie so no he couldn't have been beholden by Snoke.
Dude, what? The awakening happens in this movie. Snoke has no idea who Rey is in TFA.There are other ways to take that, for all we know JJ's plan could've been that Snoke realized there was another force user out there (Rey) and he was aware of this and was using Luke to draw her to him, he wanted to try and bend her to the dark like he did Kylo and Luke was the bait to get her into his clutches.
Whenever people propose story ideas for these movies they always come up with way more convoluted stories that completely ignore the thematic intent of what these films try to accomplish while simultaneously having no overall message because they're more focused on a twist than a message...on top of ignoring the events of the movie. Rey fully awakens in TFA. That's why it's called "The Force Awakens." JJ didn't have a plan, he went into this with maybe vague ideas of what'd he expect the plot to be about, he was originally only going to direct TFA, and made changes to it based on Rian's script. Rian's script was based directly on TFA's plot threads, it just wasn't about giving derivative answers. Each answer had a point.There are other ways to take that, for all we know JJ's plan could've been that Snoke realized there was another force user out there (Rey) and he was aware of this and was using Luke to draw her to him, he wanted to try and bend her to the dark like he did Kylo and Luke was the bait to get her into his clutches.
Ok, that still doesn't answer the question. Like:
Ok, let's say this is all true. Why then, is Luke missing from the beginning of TFA until the end? Why is Luke, someone that would try to fix problems at any cost, in the bumfuck middle of nowhere on a planet so obscure no one has the complete map for it? Why is Johnson the one who "ruined" your character when your character you thought was ruined far before that? This is what gets to me about this. That TLJ somehow "destroyed Luke" when I can easily point to TFA that this is the only conclusion you can reach without causing a massive plot hole.
Honestly I am too. I like Luke's portrayal.
I feel like all of those are reasons as to why he's as completely and utterly devastated as he is.
He didn't give up on the galaxy or is friends, at least not intentionally. He gave up on himself because he saw the ruin he could bring to them.