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Rewatching Star Wars 4-6: TLJ got Luke Right.
- Thread starter Drek
- Start date
I guess I'm conflating this with the more frequent posting of "the OT was never any good anyway" that I see so much here. If you grew up in the 80s it was the greatest thing ever - even my mom was a huge fan!
Seriously, in what world do you live in where The Last Jedi (a fantastic movie) ruins the Original Trilogy (a fantastic series of movies), when the Prequel Trilogy (an absolute insult to everything that came before in the franchise and overall poorly written garbage even standing on its own with very few redeeming features between three entire films) didn't?
But even if The Last Jedi was some big offense like you claim it was (and it's not), it can't ruin those classic movies. Now, if anything ruins the OT, it's the insistence of those in charge of changing so much of the original movies with "Special Editions" and giving us no real modern release of said films untouched. But any later movie's not going to ruin the OT, because they can still stand on their own.
Completely agree. I like that Luke wasn't perfect and echoed Obi-Wan's mistake of being too blind to notice his apprentice being lured to the Dark Side. Unlike Obi-Wan though, for a brief moment Luke actually almost did something about his concerns over Ben. But because he hesitated he inadvertently ended up just giving Ben the final push.
There seems to be a recurring theme in the Star Wars canon of the Jedi being blinded by their own hubris and the Sith rising up at the right moment to take advantage of it - which I believe TLJ talks about. Luke thought he was better than that and that things would be different this time with him leading the Jedi into a new era, but history ended up repeating itself, and that's why he ultimately wanted the Jedi to be destroyed, he realized he wasn't above it. There can be force users, but if there are no Jedi, than there are no Sith to counter-balance them.
Luke fucked up big time, hell everyone around Ben did. His parents didn't seem to notice his turn either, though I haven't read much of the new EU material so I don't know if its been established just how much (or if at all) Han and Leia knew about Ben being lured to the Dark Side.
This kinda wreaks of the "People who liked The Last Jedi aren't real Star Wars fans" gatekeeping that happened in the wake of TLJ (and the prequels) release.
There seems to be a recurring theme in the Star Wars canon of the Jedi being blinded by their own hubris and the Sith rising up at the right moment to take advantage of it - which I believe TLJ talks about. Luke thought he was better than that and that things would be different this time with him leading the Jedi into a new era, but history ended up repeating itself, and that's why he ultimately wanted the Jedi to be destroyed, he realized he wasn't above it. There can be force users, but if there are no Jedi, than there are no Sith to counter-balance them.
Luke fucked up big time, hell everyone around Ben did. His parents didn't seem to notice his turn either, though I haven't read much of the new EU material so I don't know if its been established just how much (or if at all) Han and Leia knew about Ben being lured to the Dark Side.
This kinda wreaks of the "People who liked The Last Jedi aren't real Star Wars fans" gatekeeping that happened in the wake of TLJ (and the prequels) release.
Sorry, I missed this earlier. I agree with most of what you're saying. We may just have different perspectives or something. Yeah all of the change in Vader is on point. What you're missing or underselling is Luke's role. It's not just that he's his son. "It's too late for me." "You don't know the power of the darkside." All that stuff. Luke proves him wrong with his actions. Luke went to the edge and didn't submit to the darkside. Luke proves the darkside isn't unbeatable. And he never gave up on his dad. "There's still good in you." "You won't kill me now" etc. He's right that it wasn't too late.
As far as sacrifice, he went to the deathstar knowing his friends plan to blow it up. I guess he might have thought he'd make it out. But at the very least throwing down his saber is a sacrifice. He bets it on all his dad doing the right thing at the expense of his well being. So I do think Vader is inspired by Luke's actions and beliefs. I mean all you have to hear his Vader himself say that Luke already saved him and he was right.
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not a fan of TLJ at all.. or Luke's character in it.. I was wondering thought I couldnt find it anywhere.. but is it a plot hole or does Leia have force tracking location on her... or something.
How does Luke even know what planet to Force project on... Ive only seen it once so im not sure if it was answered in the movie cant remember. but I cant find it online was it just another plot hole?
How does Luke even know what planet to Force project on... Ive only seen it once so im not sure if it was answered in the movie cant remember. but I cant find it online was it just another plot hole?
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same way that he knew his friends were on Bespin in Empire Strikes Back, I guess
I'm guessing that once they reconnect through the Force, he's able to figure out her general location.
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Luke and Leia are connected. The first time Luke reconnected with the force in the movie the very first thing he decided to do was check on Leia.
TLJ really doesn't have plot holes.
TLJ Luke was accurate. The dude was always a cocky shit that was barely figuring out what he was doing as he went along, often up until the last minute. He was never the Goku/John Cena of that universe, but for some reason people expected him to be, when the movies established him as a self-centered smartass that hadn't learned everything.
No I don't know how old he is because, to my knowledge it's never stated in either film. Nor is the timeline for how long ago this all took place. I mean, I'm sure there's expanded stuff that has said as much, but so what. And the little bit you do see of his face, Ben does look younger in that scene to me.
But here's what matters. Are you seriously trying to argue that film wants us to think that's a "grown ass man" responsible for his actions in that scene? Luke's off the hook?
The exact length of Luke pulling out his lightsaber, getting angered at the thought of losing everything, and igniting it before immediately coming back to his senses is 12 seconds.
It's absolutely a brief lapse of judgement in every sense of the word. Just take the L on this one goddamn, you asked for a receipt and I gave you 2.
There's no way anyone can claim this is the "briefest moment of pure instinct." It looks methodical. You're so entrenched in your tribal war that you don't even know what you're arguing anymore and refuse to admit the slightest knock against the film.
Case in point:
This is the post you were backing up with that
You just admitted that you don't think that, but it's team TLJ so you're quick to lend your support.
And more ridiculous:
Do you even know what thread you're in? The OP even summarized it for you.
Is that how you feel about Luke or the OT? He's not alone. Others basically voiced that same feeling that the TLJ is spot on because Luke always sucked. (lol right on cue. one post above)
And try harder than with this little league "L" stuff. You trot it out when you're the most obvious in the wrong. It's like a weird over correction or something. It's really amazing how attached your ego is in all of this and how you so desperately want to be a hero dishing out "Ls" and stuff in a relation to the Last Jedi of all things. Your blindspot is massive.
Does it need to be when we very very clearly see that it's still Adam Driver, a grown ass man, from multiple angles? There's zero indication that Kylo was a child unless you interpret the dialogue WAY too literally.
If a few seconds if not enough for you to consider something to be a brief moment then you really need to redefine your definition of "brief." Literally less than 15 seconds, "ThAT's NoT BRIef" boi pls.
I literally said it's a good scene. I was literally agreeing with him about the meta comment. The hell are you talking about?
Idc, most of the critical and audience reception has been so positive because the last two films understood the most important bits of the OT. With less focus on power levels and more focus on what makes SW so likeable in the first place.
I agree with this ! I always found it somewhat weird that The Last Jedi was the controversial one. Beyond the issues with replicating A New Hope, The Force Awakens also skimps on the physics in the universe, and renders all of the characters accomplishments in the original trilogy pretty meaningless which is pretty silly considering that is the trilogy that is essentially Star Wars.
And it lacks exposition. Hosnian Prime ? Everyone I saw it with, thought that was Coruscsant. Why wouldn't they.
I think it's really telling that you seem to be conflating thinking a protagonist has character flaws with not liking a movie. Luke's flaws are what make the movies great. It's a feature not a bug.
There were plenty of fantasy and scifi movies before Star Wars. Some were schlocky and some were super serious, but Star Wars stood out and became a phenomenon partially because it's characters were flawed, real, and relatable. They were beat up like their ships and a little shitty around the edges like the farms and bars they lived in. In my opinion it is a foundational pillar for what makes Star Wars, Star Wars. It is about that dichotomy, that tension when normal people are called on to do extraordinary things. That is the core of the hero's journey.
I mean he fucking says "You think what? I'm gonna walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order?" The idea that he could actually fight them on his own is far, far stupider than any of the supposed sins of The Last Jedi. Rian clearly knew that. 😉
He became one with the Force after the most powerful demonstration of its power. I'm not sure how anyone can be disappointed with that but y'all are entitled to have incorrect opinions that you get mad online over.
He became one with the Force after the most powerful demonstration of its power. I'm not sure how anyone can be disappointed with that but y'all are entitled to have incorrect opinions that you get mad online over.
You need to learn to communicate with people better. This statement comes off like "I may be full of shit but I just want to ignorantly complain get off my back"
Case-in-point:
You're assuming with this gotcha setup that people who think Luke was a whiny shit in the OT hate him and hate the OT and that's bullshit. I think he was a whiny shit. There is ample evidence of him whining and annoying the people around him. I love that and I love the OT and I always have and I always will. "Always sucked" is simply how you're interpreting people saying this. You didn't take the time to confirm that's the case, though.
I can't even figure out what your deal is with the other stuff, seems like you're being awfully nitpicky and pedantic about a movie which has a blatant artsy slant to it - meaning some of its depictions are not meant to be true-to-life - if you didn't notice the abstract depictions of the life/death nature of the Force, or the fact that the Kylo/Luke scene you're counting seconds in is literally from a series of flashbacks from unreliable narrators. But no let's take it literally for some reason. Why is that?
You need to spend less time putting words in people's mouths and whining about tribalism, and more time making sure you understand what they're actually talking about. You're acting like a jerk.
EDIT: And your comment below this one is another blatant misreading of what people are saying. This is why people get so worked up in these threads.
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- Again, is your argument that Luke shouldn't feel bad because Kylo is 20 something? Are you even trying to make a point? You're the one hung up on the language being used.
- No, that's not the briefest moment of pure instinct. Use your eyes.
- His comment was that Luke fails to live up to his legend. Do you agree with that?
- You don't care that this very thread stands in contrast to what you're claiming? What are you even doing?
Not a plothole but a badly used trick to make the "surprise, I'm not actually here" more impactful. I wouldn't look for an explanation past that, the force was nothing more than some magic tricks with a mythological theme tacked on in the past, explaining that shit in mechanical detail kinda kills the mystery about it
Now it's more of a McGuffin for the writers to mask event turnes and twists, it's lame but they said everything important about the force in the
OT, there isn't really much more to it, might aswell go ham with it for the folks that only care about lightsabers and spacebattles. Leia couldn't while Luke could? You're not gonna find anything satisfying there! It's an eat it or leave it deal.
No, my argument is that Luke literally didn't harm or threaten a child, he considered killing a grown man.
12 sECONDS isN'T breIF
Luke lives up to the legend at the end of the film. He was commenting that the fact that Luke isn't what we expected is a meta commentary in the film itself.
Ok, the thing you are missing, and its something all the Skywalkers suffer from, is that they are easily slaved to their emotions. Anakin and Ben suffer from this the most as their rage gets a hold of them the easiest but Luke never actually masters it. Even his crowning moment, when he refuses to kill Vader, isn't an indication he has mastered it because he still fell prey to his anger. This is what's happening there. He is once again becoming a slave to his emotions.
Look closer at the scene again. Or rather, look at his eyes. He's in shock. He barely has a grip on what's he doing. His feelings have taken over and his mind is now centered on his emotion of fear. Yes, it is more "methodical" than the raw emotion of anger, but that's what fear does. It shocks you. And its not until the last moment once again that he finally breaks the hold his feelings have on him. Only this time, the last moment is still too late.
Luke's reaction reminds me of my mother when she's having a panic attack (albeit on a smaller scale). You can see her eyes drift off as she starts catastrophizing within her mind, can see the panic overcome her, then after a moment she'll lash out reactively, then immediately withdraw in regret. Shit messes with me a little
I mean, he pulled off an incredibly impressive feat with a new use of the Force (projecting his very being from the other side of the galaxy in an illusion so realistic, you basically had to touch him to tell) to save the Resistance and restore hope to the galaxy without harming a single person in the most Jedi way possible (Yoda and Obi-Wan would be proud).
Then he becomes one with the Force, as his masters did before him.
That one moment felt more like the Jedi of the OT than the entire prequels combined, and I loved it for that.
Yeah spot on. Also OP couldn't be more right. I just rewatched the OT and then immediately TFA and TLJ. I don't dislike TFA I actually like it a fair bit but it seems a bit off tonally from the originals. TLJ on the other hand feels like a natural progression to the originals and Luke is definitely a part of that.
I see this stated a lot, but I don't think he even did the most powerful force feat in this very film. Snoke basically does what Luke does x2 at the same time and lives. Again, another instance where TLJ kind of steps on its own foot.
I agree with you about flaws fleshing out characters and all, although I'd specify that overcoming the flaws is generally what makes a movie great. Regardless I'd say look again at the op and some of the comments. They are basically "Luke always sucked."
"Luke is a shit. TLJ was very much in-character. The Skywalker men are a bunch of emotionally stunted man children given more credit than they're due because they're good at space magic."
"I agree that they got him right in being a boring and obnoxious character.
Never liked Luke and was hoping TLJ would be a fresh of breath air on that front."
"Luke is unbearable in the originals"
"TLJ Luke was accurate. The dude was always a cocky shit that was barely figuring out what he was doing as he went along, often up until the last minute. He was never the Goku/John Cena of that universe, but for some reason people expected him to be, when the movies established him as a self-centered smartass that hadn't learned everything."
I think my very first post in this thread addresses Luke's struggle with emotion and how in TLJ it "makes sense" in the same way a future film showing Poe ignoring his CO's orders would make sense. It's odd to see that kind of fall back in a fairytale. Luke conquering his emotion at the end of RotJ is his defining moment. It's what keeps him from falling to the darkside.
As far as the other part, yes it looks methodical. I don't see how your explanation (which I think is accurate) can be defined as "the briefest moment of pure instinct." I believe the simple reason for why that scene comes off as it does is that's it's more dramatic looking and fills the time of Luke's monologue that way.
I'm not sure how you get that. The films don't establish ages or specific timelines. I know they don't. Reading about it on wookipedia or something doesn't change the film. Crossing Eden responded to someone saying something about Luke doesn't murder kids in their sleep and stated that he's a grown man. Then I said, blame the movie because that's the language it uses, all of which is kind of irrelevant to the (I think obvious) point the poster was initially making that Luke doesn't murder people in their sleep. I'm confident that the film doesn't want you to think of him as a grown man and Luke's justified for thinking what he does. Teenager, 20 year old, who cares. It's wrong and it's the reason for this guilt and shame.
So, again, I really don't see how you'd think that's me acknowledging that I don't know what I'm talking about, but for what it's worth I'll try to be better in how I respond to people.
I'm not lumping everyone into the same group. I like Luke, warts and all, in the OT too and am aware there's lots of others (I'd assume the majority) who feel the same way. But there are some who I feel what I said is accurate. I just posted some quotes above. I don't really think there's much wiggle room in interpretation there, except for maybe the OP, but I mean
"Luke is a shit. TLJ was very much in-character. The Skywalker men are a bunch of emotionally stunted man children given more credit than they're due because they're good at space magic."
Do you agree with that?
I'm not sure I'm totally following you, but I believe my above comment to Xaszatm address this. I agree that it's a style choice, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't come off as at odds with what's being spoken. And I'm not the one counting seconds and being literal. That's Crossing Eden. I'm simply talking about what's shown on screen. I also think I referred to this as a "slight knock" earlier, so yeah, kind of nitpicky.
My accusations at Crossing Eden aren't based solely on this thread and I stand by them. Also, and I don't mean this to be snarky, but couldn't this be turned around and said to you not understanding what I'm talking about? Also it's really not worth getting worked up over. It's a discussion. It's fun to talk about Star Wars, even with all the crazy takes people have.
Do you agree with his take that:
"Luke is a shit. TLJ was very much in-character. The Skywalker men are a bunch of emotionally stunted man children given more credit than they're due because they're good at space magic."?
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I liked some parts esp the flawed hero who wasn't actually the kind of person the legend perpetuates but...
...they made him seem like he was being consumed by The Ring in LOTR and really the whole Avatar fight with Kylo was so shit. Literally get paid millions to come up with oh he's a projection and he just vanishes and goes away never to return? So sloppy in the execution.
Besides, he isn't even the worst part of the movie.
...they made him seem like he was being consumed by The Ring in LOTR and really the whole Avatar fight with Kylo was so shit. Literally get paid millions to come up with oh he's a projection and he just vanishes and goes away never to return? So sloppy in the execution.
Besides, he isn't even the worst part of the movie.
Haha mate I just gave my thoughts, I'm not part of "Team TLJ". Might I suggest you have a nice sit down somewhere quiet for a bit, you're far too involved.
Cool. I'm just giving my thoughts too. I think one of the biggest take aways from TLJ is that Luke does live up to his legend. And I'm laying down freshly showered next to my sleeping wife with the lights off. It's pretty calm and relaxed.
TLJ basically destroyed Chinese SW fan base and performed only 40% of TFA in BO and even worse than Rogue One. It even irritated the "old fans" so much even largest China SW forum urged its members to boycott SOLO after TLJ. LOL. They even called Disney Darth Mickey who secretly ruined SW legacy.
https://www.zhihu.com/question/264004054
ERA is the only forum in the Internet I saw so many vocal TLJ defenders, although the poll of 1600 Era members showed that the fan base is divisive even in Era.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/one-year-later-the-last-jedi-the-power-of-story.87325/
https://www.zhihu.com/question/264004054
ERA is the only forum in the Internet I saw so many vocal TLJ defenders, although the poll of 1600 Era members showed that the fan base is divisive even in Era.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/one-year-later-the-last-jedi-the-power-of-story.87325/
Luke was whiny in Episode 4 because he was an undisciplined angsty teenager. In Empires, he doesn't "bail" on his friends. They safely evacuate Hoth and he heads to do his training, which is sorta critical to the rebellion effort you know...He defies Obi Wan and and Yoda out of love for his friends, not for any nefarious reasons. The whole point of these flaws are to demonstrate character development. You don't get that in TLJ, unfortunately, for the new characters. In Episode 4 and 5, he is shown to be dedicated to the cause but also very short sighted and not disciplined. In ROTJ, the very moment you see Luke again, he's fully trained and no longer has these flaws. What were you expecting? Him to be born perfect(like Rey)?
My main issue in TLJ with regards to Luke is the shitty slapstick style of humor they did coming right off of TFA. The moment was setup perfectly and Rian took a giant shit all over it with the light saber toss and the entire encounter going forward. Then there's the issue with Luke nearly murdering his nephew over a vision, which, yes I'm sorry, is completely out of character for Luke. As you even stated above, he refused to kill even a mass murdering sith lord but we are expected to believe he nearly killed his nephew over something he hadn't even done yet? or how about the fact he completely abandoned his friends and sister after Kylo's attack? Completely out of character for Luke. When Luke lost his aunt and uncle, which were basically parents to him. His response was to become a Jedi like his father and take on the empire, not cower in fear or seclude himself. He rose to the challenge. Yeah, now that I remember back to that film. Its complete and utter dog shit. There's plenty more to roast that movie for, but its late.
My main issue in TLJ with regards to Luke is the shitty slapstick style of humor they did coming right off of TFA. The moment was setup perfectly and Rian took a giant shit all over it with the light saber toss and the entire encounter going forward. Then there's the issue with Luke nearly murdering his nephew over a vision, which, yes I'm sorry, is completely out of character for Luke. As you even stated above, he refused to kill even a mass murdering sith lord but we are expected to believe he nearly killed his nephew over something he hadn't even done yet? or how about the fact he completely abandoned his friends and sister after Kylo's attack? Completely out of character for Luke. When Luke lost his aunt and uncle, which were basically parents to him. His response was to become a Jedi like his father and take on the empire, not cower in fear or seclude himself. He rose to the challenge. Yeah, now that I remember back to that film. Its complete and utter dog shit. There's plenty more to roast that movie for, but its late.
I'm a simple man and I want simple cool Jedi stuff. Sure, all the stuff he did is cool but it's not as visually exciting as lifting something heavy like one of those AT walkers.
I have to disagree OP. Luke was always the optimist. He went out of his way to serve the greater good and try to save his friends, even though he was just a farmer or someshit from a backwater planet. TLJ completely transformed him.
Is that good or bad? I dunno. I didn't much care for it, but I understand that people change. All that matters is that in the end he did the right thing and was the Luke I remembered as a kid.
Is that good or bad? I dunno. I didn't much care for it, but I understand that people change. All that matters is that in the end he did the right thing and was the Luke I remembered as a kid.
You're not a majority.....and if you got your way, it would have made the film incredibly boring. It would also be incredibly inconsistent with the plot of SW as a story overall. Like, Luke actually being there and "blowing up all the empire" as you described is just....like, that's literally the antithesis to what the force represents. Yoda puts emphasis on this in the OT and Luke himself does again in TLJ.
Like....come on man.
Not even getting into what Luke's actions represent and what they accomplished at the end of TLJ......Like....whut? TLJ solidified Luke.
I love when people pretend that they knew all along how Luke would be portrayed in this movie when there was no way of knowing it. No precedent whatsoever for this attitude of his.
"Rian Johnson got Luke right 100%"
"Lul you expected Space Goku!?12"
I call bullshit.
If ya'll wanted this/saw this coming before Episode 7/8 I wanna see some receipts. I'll believe you when I see it.
Oh and I still don't buy Luke would ever leave his family, friends, and the galaxy to fend for themselves even if he was all bent out of shape due to what happened with Kylo. Think about it, he basically let Han die. As far as we knew, Luke would never do this. Half of Empire was about Luke obsessing over his friends (and they were just friends at this point, whom he'd known for about 2 years) and risking everything despite being told not to to save them. Now he has a sister, a nephew, and friends for 30 years. But I'm supposed to believe he's gonna hide away and let whatever happen to them cuz his feelings were hurt?
Not buying it.
I love Episode 7/8 but that doesn't mean I'm gonna make disingenuous claims like the movie is 100% perfect and this was the only way to portray Luke, fuck that.
"Rian Johnson got Luke right 100%"
"Lul you expected Space Goku!?12"
I call bullshit.
If ya'll wanted this/saw this coming before Episode 7/8 I wanna see some receipts. I'll believe you when I see it.
Oh and I still don't buy Luke would ever leave his family, friends, and the galaxy to fend for themselves even if he was all bent out of shape due to what happened with Kylo. Think about it, he basically let Han die. As far as we knew, Luke would never do this. Half of Empire was about Luke obsessing over his friends (and they were just friends at this point, whom he'd known for about 2 years) and risking everything despite being told not to to save them. Now he has a sister, a nephew, and friends for 30 years. But I'm supposed to believe he's gonna hide away and let whatever happen to them cuz his feelings were hurt?
Not buying it.
I love Episode 7/8 but that doesn't mean I'm gonna make disingenuous claims like the movie is 100% perfect and this was the only way to portray Luke, fuck that.
While there is no certain way of knowing this (and I for sure didn't know all along) it was clear there was something 'wrong' with Luke. Why else would he hide himself on some remote tiny planet? It is already clear as day in TFA that Luke wants to seclude himself and not to be found after he failed to rebuild the Jedi Order.
Yeah sometimes I also feel a bit this way. But the seed of this problem was planted in TFA, so I am not sure why people (not you) are solely blaming TLJ.
Yeah I think the issues that you weren't making it clear that you were talking about the film language. Eden seems like they were responding to you about lore, in the sense that you were making claims which contradicted the established facts, and they wanted to make sure you had those facts straight. That was the nature of their original comment you quoted, yes? Someone referred to Kylo as a child and Eden corrected them. Then you jumped in making it about film language, I presume, yet you didn't specify that so they (and I) thought that you were arguing with them about established facts (Kylo's literal age).
If I have misrepresented you Crossing Eden please let me know.
Firstly, are you arguing that the film wants you to think Luke is justified for thinking about killing Kylo? Or not? Secondly, why are you confident of the age thing? I can see them shooting the scene with that in mind (IIRC they kept Driver fairly obscured through each recollection) due to the time lapse, or maybe they wanted him to look younger to make him look more innocent (because we must remember that this is a story told three times by two separate people, both of whom do view Luke as the bad guy in that scenario). But in terms of lore Kylo is around 29/30 in TFA (he was born a year after the Battle of Endor) and Luke has been in hiding for at the most 6 years, so that would put his age at around 23/24 or older when this event happened. A child he is not; a grown man at 23+ with that kind of attitude?... debatable. Them's the facts.
Yeah, I can more or less agree with that if taken at face value. There isn't a single Saga movie where a Skywalker isn't being a shit in some capacity.
Okay so what I'm gathering here is that you understand why the scene was likely presented the way it was, but you decided to start a pedantic line of "discussion" with Crossing Eden over it anyway for.... what purpose?
Crossing Eden's last reply to you has still made it clear you are not understanding what points they are making, or at least where they are coming from. You should do better to clarify these things before you let conversations get to where that one did. As for the second part, nah, not when you got on that "team TLJ" nonsense. And not when you're starting arguments with people using premises you don't even care about in the way you're arguing about them. Some of y'all think everyone's okay with that kind of talk and a lot of people aren't. It's a shitty way to discuss things with strangers.
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I am not happy with any of the plot resolves in TLJ. All what RJ accomplished is making SW universe boring.
Who wants to see Luke depressed, down to earth?
Who wants to see Luke depressed, down to earth?
Both TFA and, to a larger extent, TLJ, are the perfect mixture of wrong: they slavishly adhere to the surface-level aesthetic, making them poor remakes of the OT at best, while at the same time betraying all the core values and ethos of the series.
Unmaking character progress for the main OT characters like Han (TFA) and Luke (TLJ) and story progress (state of the Galaxy) is one of their many failiings. For all its failings, the Prequels never strayed that far.
The ST will stand as a monument to creative bankrupcy of big corporations, the guns-for-hire anything goes attitude of those they employ and the rebelious nihilism without a cause of one Rian Johnson (and, to a lesser extent, JJs; though JJs is just an unintentional by-product of his theme-park-ride mystery box approach to movies) .
Unmaking character progress for the main OT characters like Han (TFA) and Luke (TLJ) and story progress (state of the Galaxy) is one of their many failiings. For all its failings, the Prequels never strayed that far.
The ST will stand as a monument to creative bankrupcy of big corporations, the guns-for-hire anything goes attitude of those they employ and the rebelious nihilism without a cause of one Rian Johnson (and, to a lesser extent, JJs; though JJs is just an unintentional by-product of his theme-park-ride mystery box approach to movies) .
I really like this post. You pretty much hit every note on why someone who is/was a Luke fan would be upset with ROTJ.
I enjoyed the movie a lot and kinda agree with both sides when it comes to Luke. It did feel somewhat out of character for him to act as he did, but Mark did such a great job that I Ioved it and he was my favorite part of the movie.
I pointed out your post because my perspective on him "disappearing" after Ben turning is different. For Luke, he did the most difficult thing possible in hopes that maybe, it would help.
Very similar to what Goku did at the end of Cell Saga haha. Though their motives were slightly different (I think Goku was more motivated to continue training), they both felt that maybe their families and friends were better off/in less danger without them.
The man who played Luke wanted Boba Fett to be Luke's mother.
Love Mark, fantastic dude, but he ain't a writter lol. He's an actor, with opinions. His opinion about Luke's character doesn't make other opinions wrong. Debates about TLJ start to grow old. It's either hate it or love it, so it's only people mistaking "it's awful" with "I don't like it" and "It's awesome" with "I love it".
Human beings have different feelings toward art, and TLJ is a very divisive piece of art on the internet. No one's right or wrong, it's all good.
current who canon is that rassilon is now a doddery old man though
so by that logic OP is 100% wrong
Disney Star Wars, at it's best, will only ever be fan fiction.
I like TFA better than TLJ but they are both very bad Star Wars movies for the reasons you mentioned. TFA undid eveything in the OT and TLJ heavily damaged the character of Luke Skywalker and played heavily into iconoclasm (destroying Anakin's saber? Fuck you Rian).
TRoS has a chance to repair this somewhat and at least salvage the ST to be on the whole better than the Prequels, but right now the ST means nothing to me.
As boring as it was at least Rogue One felt like it fits in with the universe.
What? All of the character ends with different goals in TLJ.
You guys hate the movie so much that you fail to see some really obvious things in the story.