Yup. I dont even really like TLJ but my knee-jerk always has me aligning with those who do because of how hyperbolic and absurd the other end is. And that's even before assuming any alt right connotations.
Rewriting Ripley: How White Supremacy, Misogyny, and Hate Targeted the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy (The Last Jedi) and Won
- Thread starter SweetNicole
- Start date
Literally hasn't been a week since we had people here wink wink nudge cosigning the firing of kathleen kennedy in response to this video:
by constantly arguing about how...Disney didn't make enough money off of three billion dollar movies. Or that maybe the shareholders in question were asking in good faith. Despite the people in question literally stating their intentions.
It's not a both sides issue. It's the alt right seeing a never ending movie argument taking place and using it as an opportunity to attract angry people from the over 3 years long argument through youtube videos about it. As long as people arguing about TLJ is relevant their alt right TLJ recruitment videos remain relevant and youtube's algorithm drives traffic to them.
Last edited:
Just one quick thought: I've seen people mention they were frustrated that Finn was sidelined in TLJ as their reason for disliking TLJ.
First, there's a difference between being *dissatisfied* with a character arc and *hating* a movie. Next, I didn't really feel like he was *sidelined* so much as...he had other shit to do. Mans was out there literally trying to help save the remains of the Rebellion who were getting run down like a Battlestar Galactica episode. Remember who Finn was in TFA: an escaped soldier/janitor who was scared to fight and genuinely afraid of the First Order. So much so that he was ready and willing to ABANDON REY (who he clearly was trying to start a thing with) rather than face them again. Even when he joined Rey on Starkiller and faced down Kylo, he was only there for Rey. Not for the Rebellion. Movie ends and he's in a coma and Rey is peacing out to find Luke.
Ya'll remember that, right? So if the next movie is going to pick up when that one left off, RJ has to do 2 things: (1) follow Rey on her own quest away from the rest of the cast and (2) take Finn on a quest that exorcises the bitchassness out of his system so that he can be in a position to grow into a true leader instead of one selfishly trying to save himself or the individuals he loves. After all, there were lots of people to whom his story could be an inspiration, who are dealing with the same kind of oppression and fear that need the same kind of help. And that's exactly what happens. Rey does her own thing and Finn is introduced to the perspective he needs to curve his fear into a fighter's anger. It's not refined as he's only just starting to channel that fear into fight. We see that as he almost gets himself killed at the very end. But he doesn't die and this puts him in great position for a 3rd film.
In fact, it's easy to imagine a 3rd film where the many lessons learned in E8 carry on to E9 and his feelings for the First Order are refined, allowing him to become a true general and the beating heart of the Resistance. Built on his passions, knowing better than anyone just how much there is to lose for everyone. They could have continued to build on his force sensitivity and -- perhaps in an alternative dimension -- we would see an Episode 9 where in some big climax battle, we get our suspicions confirmed as he force pulls the light saber from an injured Rey and goes to fucking work, showing off his quietly-kept light saber dueling skills (it is then revealed that Rey had been training him in secret). Then they both go on to save the day. Or galaxy, as it were. We could have seen Poe's newly-gained maturity and decision making in crucial space battles, earned after the costly losses of Leia and Holdo. We could have had Rose keeping the mains encouraged and engaged through rough situations and failures, ever reminding them why we can't quit. We could have enjoyed full Super Sayan Rey. Shit, maybe we even get the Rey x Finn a lot of us wanted to see. Mans took a light saber swing for her. Half of ya'll wouldn't even split a happy meal with a potential SO!
We could have gotten something like that. But we didn't because JJ decided that he'd rather not build off that all the good character development in E8, instead just turning the volume up on the action, taking a reasonable number of enemies and multiply it by 2 orders of magnitude for "coolness", relegating Finn's lines and presence to shouting "REY!" and running after her, riding a space horse, and limiting Rose to literally a background presence. Oh and returning Poe to a general state of childishness.
My ultimate point: TLJ was a character development movie designed to set up the 3rd act. It did plenty to develop the main characters through adversity. Every core character grew in meaningful, demonstrable ways from who there were at the beginning of the movie to who they were at the end. Nothing was taken away from the characters involved. They all got more complex and more interesting. All JJ had to do was take the new state of those characters (Poe - the best X-Wing pilot but now with real willingness to develop leadership skills \\ Finn - force sensitive and now with a true passion to fight for EVERYONE instead of just himself and Rey \\ Rey - now with inner peace/peace of mind of knowing who she is and that her lack of family does not define her future, the Jedi instruction manual in hand \\ Kylo now resolved to become the new emperor who must be stopped at all costs) and land the fucking plane.
It's not RJ's fault JJ couldn't land the plane. JJ couldn't have ask for a better set; just gotta be able to spike the ball. That's what he gets paid millions of dollars to do. If RJ had time to do E9, I suspect the trilogy goes down as the best of the franchise.
First, there's a difference between being *dissatisfied* with a character arc and *hating* a movie. Next, I didn't really feel like he was *sidelined* so much as...he had other shit to do. Mans was out there literally trying to help save the remains of the Rebellion who were getting run down like a Battlestar Galactica episode. Remember who Finn was in TFA: an escaped soldier/janitor who was scared to fight and genuinely afraid of the First Order. So much so that he was ready and willing to ABANDON REY (who he clearly was trying to start a thing with) rather than face them again. Even when he joined Rey on Starkiller and faced down Kylo, he was only there for Rey. Not for the Rebellion. Movie ends and he's in a coma and Rey is peacing out to find Luke.
Ya'll remember that, right? So if the next movie is going to pick up when that one left off, RJ has to do 2 things: (1) follow Rey on her own quest away from the rest of the cast and (2) take Finn on a quest that exorcises the bitchassness out of his system so that he can be in a position to grow into a true leader instead of one selfishly trying to save himself or the individuals he loves. After all, there were lots of people to whom his story could be an inspiration, who are dealing with the same kind of oppression and fear that need the same kind of help. And that's exactly what happens. Rey does her own thing and Finn is introduced to the perspective he needs to curve his fear into a fighter's anger. It's not refined as he's only just starting to channel that fear into fight. We see that as he almost gets himself killed at the very end. But he doesn't die and this puts him in great position for a 3rd film.
In fact, it's easy to imagine a 3rd film where the many lessons learned in E8 carry on to E9 and his feelings for the First Order are refined, allowing him to become a true general and the beating heart of the Resistance. Built on his passions, knowing better than anyone just how much there is to lose for everyone. They could have continued to build on his force sensitivity and -- perhaps in an alternative dimension -- we would see an Episode 9 where in some big climax battle, we get our suspicions confirmed as he force pulls the light saber from an injured Rey and goes to fucking work, showing off his quietly-kept light saber dueling skills (it is then revealed that Rey had been training him in secret). Then they both go on to save the day. Or galaxy, as it were. We could have seen Poe's newly-gained maturity and decision making in crucial space battles, earned after the costly losses of Leia and Holdo. We could have had Rose keeping the mains encouraged and engaged through rough situations and failures, ever reminding them why we can't quit. We could have enjoyed full Super Sayan Rey. Shit, maybe we even get the Rey x Finn a lot of us wanted to see. Mans took a light saber swing for her. Half of ya'll wouldn't even split a happy meal with a potential SO!
We could have gotten something like that. But we didn't because JJ decided that he'd rather not build off that all the good character development in E8, instead just turning the volume up on the action, taking a reasonable number of enemies and multiply it by 2 orders of magnitude for "coolness", relegating Finn's lines and presence to shouting "REY!" and running after her, riding a space horse, and limiting Rose to literally a background presence. Oh and returning Poe to a general state of childishness.
My ultimate point: TLJ was a character development movie designed to set up the 3rd act. It did plenty to develop the main characters through adversity. Every core character grew in meaningful, demonstrable ways from who there were at the beginning of the movie to who they were at the end. Nothing was taken away from the characters involved. They all got more complex and more interesting. All JJ had to do was take the new state of those characters (Poe - the best X-Wing pilot but now with real willingness to develop leadership skills \\ Finn - force sensitive and now with a true passion to fight for EVERYONE instead of just himself and Rey \\ Rey - now with inner peace/peace of mind of knowing who she is and that her lack of family does not define her future, the Jedi instruction manual in hand \\ Kylo now resolved to become the new emperor who must be stopped at all costs) and land the fucking plane.
It's not RJ's fault JJ couldn't land the plane. JJ couldn't have ask for a better set; just gotta be able to spike the ball. That's what he gets paid millions of dollars to do. If RJ had time to do E9, I suspect the trilogy goes down as the best of the franchise.
Last edited:
He does sound like one of the nerd characters from the Simpsons.
I wont derail this thread any further as it is rightly should be focued on the impact that the alt right fuckheads had on the the sequal trilogy.
But having said that the line below is pretty why I personally hated the direction that Rian went with Finn.
But having said that the line below is pretty why I personally hated the direction that Rian went with Finn.
I see. What would have have liked to see happen with Finn, based on where he was left at the end of TFA? Remember: comatose, ready to run, now separated from Rey.
Great article on the way the right wing media has used the internet discussion of games and films to spread white supremacy and misogyny. The Star Wars films are besides the point; it's just been very successful topic for the alt-right to feed on because everyone continues to discuss it ... just like in this thread. They could be harping on Game of Thrones if people were still discussing that.
I think JJA would deserve some of the blame here. Finn was set up as a red herring jedi lead, in TFA, where Rey catches the light saber and it lands in her hands, revealing her as the true hero of the new saga, the first woman lead. (And in IX he could have still made him a jedi in training, pick up the saber)
I'm still salty that this killed MC Chris's version. I like his version better.
By the end of TFA Finn had helped his friend and had shown he had the bravery to stand up to those who had practically raised him. He was in effect, free. Free to leave the rebellion which largely meant nothing to him to explore the galaxy and figure out what was important to him. Imagine if he had met other ex storm troopers and joined the rebels to protect them or help them.
Instead TLJ treats his care for arguably his first friend as a disease that must be cured and his hesitance to fight his kidnappers as cowardice that he must be led by the nose to get over. How fucking insulting is that? How many empire deserters are there in the universe. Are they all cowards for not wanting to join up the rebels first thing?
Yeah, a lot of people are missing this. It could have been anything, but the internet at large latched on TLJ and the alt right saw an opportunity. Youtube's algorithm makes it so easy for them to put their alt right videos in front of people's eyes about popular topics. In this case TLJ is still extremely relevant over 3 years later because people still haven't stopped arguing about it in vain.
Honestly, I wish ERA drew a harder line on TLJ discourse.
Everyone knows how much damage it did here and in the wider fandom, and how it was a gateway to further alt-right bullshit.
If people think their critique is so special it rises above the real harm the discourse caused, that’s a problem on them and their ego.
Everyone knows how much damage it did here and in the wider fandom, and how it was a gateway to further alt-right bullshit.
If people think their critique is so special it rises above the real harm the discourse caused, that’s a problem on them and their ego.
Holy shit because it's not the same thing? I have to like this movie in order to not be alt right? Jesus Christ people. Feel free to look through the history of this board. I guarantee you the amount of threads started by the people who dislike this movie is 10% of the threads made about the sequel trilogy. And the discourse has basically turned into "If you don't like TLJ your alt-right" With PLENTY of threads starting with that narrative.
The harassment of Marie Tran is disgusting. Yes the way the Alt Right has used this movie to rehash and put their talking points out their is disgusting. But the amount of hand waving criticisms due to racism/sexism is just insane. Go through our fucking posts we're clear about our dislikes of this AS A MOVIE. Jesus Christ. On the KK stuff is it not okay to criticize an executive of a trilogy where every movie in a trilogy has made less money? Seems pretty basic to me.
For those people that love it great. I have as much right to post a critique as you do your love. But genuinely that's great you love it. For me TLJ and the sequel trilogy has some of the more baffling choices in movies made recently and I enjoy talking about it why I think that.
Go into that other thread with examples of first scenes in movies where you know it will be shit. It's not a derail a lot of people agree it's a perfect example.
the self awareness of this post is ooooooooof
people dont owe you the benefit of the doubt that MAYBE you dont actually like TLJ because valid things.
when the most prominent haters are racist, misogynistics pieces of shit.
The amount of hand waving racism/sexism in favour of 'criticism' is worse. If anyone wants to follow up "it's horrible what happened to KMT" with a "but..." maybe stfu and introspect on how that looks and sounds. It does not do you any favours. The internet has gassed people up to think their movie opinions are an honest to god valuable currency over people's livelihoods and wellbeing.
and once again can people READ THE ARTICLE
and once again can people READ THE ARTICLE
I think many many people either forgot and/or outright ignore where Finn's character arc ended in TFA, on top of how he was treated in that film vs. the film where the entire point is, everyone of the new gen characters eat shit and then get back up with the old guard's blessing.
Game of Thrones had the benefit of being incredibly misogynistic at times so ofc the alt right didn't attach themselves to it. It should be noted, this shit hasn't even ended with the last jedi. It's still ongoing, there's just a new target:
it is no secret that the leading characters of the high republic project are women/PoC. And that diversity is a focus of the project, at least to a degree that the cast of prominent characters does not resemble this:
One of the themes of TLJ is the idea of legends living up to their name. Finn, in just a day or two at most, turned into a legend due to his actions and his lie persevering. He also happened to not only be a top soldier but also an incredibly valuable source of information that could save the galaxy from more decades of fascism. Yes him running away would be a net negative. The film doesn't treat his care for Rey as a disease:
But it absolutely does say "there's a bigger picture, there's so much at stake, and you can do so much to help." Finn isn't even led by the nose, he just has a normal conversation that plants the seeds of him looking at a bigger picture. I hate TROS because all that development amounted to was, yes him fighting and blowing shit up, but also not being a character in aside from
-asking Poe why he knows about shady shit
and
-"REY!"
The moment he talks to other defected stormtroopers the movie throws out all that agency that he had as "it was a feeling i.e. the force because apparently I don't make choices on my own anymore. REYYYYYY!"
Ever since A New Hope, SW has presented "not fighting the nazis that you could help out against" as the wrong move. Han, Finn, Luke, even Rey.
It’s a movie. This is just an insane train of logic.
How does blindly liking a movie fight the harassment that Kelly Marie Tran got? Feel free to call it out when you see it and hold people accountable. I don't think blindly praising a movie is doing much. Sure let's highlight Asian American representation. Doesn't mean the movie itself is great.
Guess it's only a matter of time before any TLJ goes down the drain, better not talk about it at all, love it, hate it, just don't mention it, it won't end well.
That led to the harassment of the several people in hollywood and was used to radicalize a shit ton of young men into thinking that women and POC are out to get them. Which led to further harassment and one of the most tone deaf blockbuster movies you could possibly think of.
Who blindly likes the movie?
You...want critique of TLJ banned? Because that’s what I’m getting from this post.
Harder line how? It was a terrible film on multiple levels to where, for me personally, it squandered much of the goodwill I had for Star War on the big screen. I have no doubt that there was an online element of chuds criticizing The Last Jedi but this is just an absurd take, that we should not be able to be critical of a bad piece of media on Era because the alt-right is also critical of it...
No need to further elaborate when this point has been addressed by other posters, as recently as.
Personally? I’d be a okay with a hard limit on TLJ talk, or regulating it to a thread. The arguments never go anywhere useful, and is a breeding ground for alt-right recruitment.
Same with that ghostbusters movie, and the Harry Potter game.
Sounds like you wanted an independent movie focused principally on Finn. I'da been down for that. But if he's going to be part of a story with other existing leads, it couldn't go in that direction.
Last edited:
Yup. And we are years removed and posts pop up like the movie came out over the weekend.
Lets be honest here. You don’t care about the contents of the OP at all. You just wanted to drop your hot take about TLJ.
I mean who said anything about not being able to criticize TLJ on ERA?
See. Your post is the example why moderation could be tougher on these type of threads.
Sounds great. The amount of takes we have on it is pretty overwhelming.
Article is good though in illustrating how the Alt Right used this movie. Long but worth a read or a skim
Some people who dislike TLJ are intelligent people with legitimate grievances. There are things to criticise in the film. But the sheer amount of basic people who hate the film for reasons such as Luke not being a Force god (check any random sequel trilogy Facebook thread at any point in the day) suggests that there is a very large contingent of people with low intelligence, poor critical thinking skills and probably in some state of arrested development. Which are all precursors to being indoctrinated into ideologies like the alt right where critical thinking is left at the door.
No, I've said my piece on TLJ countless times here (most of us have, the conversation has been had to death). What got me to post in this thread was a poster suggesting that criticism of certain pieces of media should be bannable if that media was also being criticized by alt-righters, which is just ludicrous. We should be able to talk about the merits of things as they stand.
BTW, I did read about half of the OP's article. It's very long, way too much of an investment to put into an article which is trying to deflect criticism of what is, at the end of the day, a very bad film. Again, as I said, I agree that there's an element of chuds spewing out shit against the newest trilogy to suit their agenda. I've seen it myself on right-wing media, it's impossible to miss.
It does when that care is treated as the small picture. Like an item that must be outgrown to become a hero of the rebels. But he already was a hero by focusing on the small picture, by focusing on the things which at the time made sense to him to care for. He was straight up threatened and forced to stay when he wanted to leave, Christ even TFA gave him enough agency to leave that decision to him, if thats not the plot leading you by the nose I dont know what is.
And this is precisely an issue. As far as TFA Finn is concerned , he went down helping a friend and when he woke up he was a hero who's lie helped millions of people. Should he be now trapped by his legacy , "should the bigger picture" of fighting the rebels who he barely knows and cares for trap him here. The language used here is different but the words are the same. "Stop being selfish/cowardly". Where is the personal introspection afforded to Rey and Kylo in all of this? Yes him running away would have been a net negative for the rebels but so what? The desperation of the rebels means that for some one like Finn, that just makes them more people who want to chain him up and make him fight someone he doesnt want to. Canto does not accomplish this, in fact on the surface it gives more reason not to care for the republic than fight for it.
Im not even arguing for a new concept here. We already saw Han get back to fighting the empire because he cared. Not about the bigger picture, it wouldnt make sense to him , but about his friends. We also saw this with the Mandalorian and his care for baby yoda which supoerceded any conversation regarding mandalore or the empire. There wasnt a big picture, there was just what he as a character wanted and why that made sense to him.
As to the topic, I fucking hate that people got harassed because of all this shit and I fucking hate that TROS ended up as the flamming turd thats not even worth discussing. No buts, no although. Regardless of how people felt about the movies theres absolutely no reason to harrass , belittle or threaten people and that shit needs to be stomped out.
Rey’s entire arc is about her looking at the bigger picture too. Everyone’s arc in the movie is about moving beyond their personal desires and looking at an bigger picture. Trying to frame, and this is a story for children mind u, “don’t be afraid to fight back against fascism because of what’s at stake” as “chained” is an incredibly bad take. Finn’s MO is not that he doesn’t want to fight. He’s afraid of dying.
They may have grown up reading the (now non-cannon) novels who usually picture Luke as much more powerful than the movies ever did. I recall him force pulling a Star Destroyer from space and crashing it on a planet in the Thrawn saga.
I would be more careful before blatantly tagging insults on people. This is a complex situation with a lot of identity politics which is why it's so easy to co-op by hateful actors and flinging insinuations only gives more room.
Think of it as blue knight VS red knight and a bunch of vultures waiting on the side. The harder the battle, the better the meal.
The difference between those characters is that Han's primary motivator wasn't fear; it was business, self-interest, and indifference. Mando's motivators? Business and indifference. Things they could casually put aside if they wanted to at any time and did to the indirect benefit of all (most of the time).
Finn? His primary motivator was fear, pure and simple. It hold full control over him, like a metastasized cancer. You could see it in his eyes as he was perparing to leave Rey in TLJ and board that ship to the outer rim or whatever. And for good reason; he had been through and seen some shit. If he was going to grow into the hero we wanted him to be, that fear instinct was going to have be broken. Shown to him so that he could see it, then excised from his spirit.
Fear is different than indifference or selfishness and has to be handled differently. Fear is probably the biggest weapon and limiting agent known to mankind. It has to be respected and treated as such. This fear acted as blinders on Finn's face. TLJ's journey was him getting help having those blinders removed. It's a journey that goes beyond the movie for a lot of people, which makes Finn more personally identifiable for the audience, many of whom struggle with various aspects of fear in their lives. Nothing wrong with that or how they developed him at all. Nothing wrong with your idea either and it would have been cool for a Star Wars: Finn movie.
Both of these would be true, Had TFA Finn not chosen to come back for his friend, to risk his life for his firend and to put his life on the line for his friend.
Fear is a part of his life but he already showed that when he has something important enough to fight for, he will conquer it. Also crossing, well congnissent that this is a child's movie for a child's property where it was just simply good vs evil. But we arent in the 80's anymore, a complex issue such as child soldiers being forced to fight their captors either needs to be handled with respect or rightly called out when its not.
Edit: upont reflection , you've both just proven my point. His character growth in TLJ is apparently largely driven by the hero the rebels need him to be or by what the lessons the writers want to teach. Not by his own wants and needs.
Edit 2: I do want to apologise to the OP about derailing this thread with our disagreement. As I've said, whilst I have my issues with the movie, the treatment of the stars and the guys who put their hearts into this is beyond repugnant. Even now, you'll still see the channels which were not all that popular prior to TLJ but now make a living spreading anti-feminist videos on youtube after.
Last edited:
So, how did we get to discussing the merits of the movie again, in the year 2021? Because people have discussed the merits of the movie to death, people who love will continue to love it, people who hate it will continue to hate it, I think there's value in analysing how the alt-right used the movie to gain viewership, but discussing the merits has been done. To death. Several times. And I don't think it's going to end differently this time.
In any case, Youtube really should change their algorithm.
In any case, Youtube really should change their algorithm.
Well, you're attacking them right now.
The aggressive defense is a part of the strategy to spread the hate. They need something to reply to.
Copy paste this to gamergate and tell me again how well that has worked out.
The problem isn’t that both groups are critiquing it, its that the language and critics cross pollinate and you effectively have alt right viewpoints ‘laundered’ into discourse. Even in a post about Tran’s abuse, people had to give hottakes about her character, even in this post we’ve got side concersations on how the movie sucked...as if there have not literally been a hundred era posts covering the same thing.
There’s no benefit to kicking the shit out of tlj in 2021 outside of rehashing the same alt right adjacent points
The article isn’t loading for me right now, but it seems very thought out. There absolutely was a lot of alt-right hate regarding the movie due to bigotry. And I can see how that could sway opinion.
I saw the movie on release and almost walked out half a dozen times because I thought it was so bad. The issues I have with the movie aren’t the ethnicity of the characters or the sex of the protagonist, and I will call out those attacks when I see them.
I saw the movie on release and almost walked out half a dozen times because I thought it was so bad. The issues I have with the movie aren’t the ethnicity of the characters or the sex of the protagonist, and I will call out those attacks when I see them.
This is why I simply don't associate with the star wars at all. Between the obsession with relitigating TLJ and the sheer difficulty many seem to have with empathizing with what KMT went through without include a side-note about how much they hated her character, I'm just done. There's nothing to salvage.
The never ending TLJ discourse is driving engagement for alt right videos on youtube because of their algorithm. It's not about anyone being right or wrong. It's about the alt right benefiting from the fact that no one can let it go.
You made up your mind what the article was 'about' without reading it. You're wrong. Read it and you might actually learn something.
My favorite bit from that thread was someone trying to compare people calling for Musk to be fired to Kathleen Kennedy as justification for the question during the call.
While I think all of the new Star Wars movies are bad, and would be regulated to streaming dumping grounds if not for rabid franchise support, Last Jedi is by far the least bad. It's absurd in a number of points, but it has a life and energy to it that Force Awakens completely lacks for me.
