• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Inferno

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,554
Tampa, FL
I guess breathing in outer space is a new jedi technique? When did they use that in trilogy?

Who made the map then?

Lorr Sen Tekka helped Luke find the location of the original Jedi Temple at some point in the 30 year interim between RotJ and TFA. That's why he had part of the map. The other part of the map that was in R2 came from when he interfaced with the Death Star. This is dumb EU stuff, so I don't blame you not knowing it.

But in the film, it's never said that Luke made that map so people could find it. It's stated that Luke went to exile himself on a planet he thought he'd never be found on, it's the map to the first Jedi temple, not specifically the map to Luke.
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,061
Also add in
AHA you thought Snoke was special but fuck you we ain't gonna explain his backstory cause hes dead now!
AHA you thought Rey's parents were special but they were nothing from the start!
AHA you thought Rey was going to "get" something from that evil hole but nothing happened!
The movie just felt like they wrote themselves in a corner with the first film and just said *fuck it* nothing matters who cares, I wouldn't have an issue if one or two things were overglossed but every single fucking thing didn't matter or just couldn't be fucked to bother explaining it.

No one needed the Emperor's backstory, and the prequels should be a warning as to why "explaining" things isn't always necessary. Snoke is a powerhouse who controls the First Order; that's all that needs to be known. Rey's parents being nobody was a far more meaningful resolution than, "Everybody is related to everybody," since everybody liked to theorize she was somehow related to Luke or Han. And her reaction meant a lot more than any twist could have.
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,456
The asteroid Han and Leia were inside of in ESB shouldn't be breathable. Yet it is because whatever (Starlog had a letter written to them back in the day complaining about it IIRC). Sci-fi films take liberties. At least with this, I can at least think that a person strong with the Force could do that.

Han and Leia had breathing apparatus. It was the one way to explain that scene away.
 

Contramann

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,404
Luke being able to force project isn't the problem. Luke dying afterwards is. If he didn't die, it would have been fine. But the way it is, it just seems like a messy, impersonal way of dying.
Seemed fine to me. Ben was robbed of his revenge on Luke, Luke got to buy time for his Sister and the Rebellion and as far as I could tell there is no way Ben realized he's dead, especially since Luke implied he would see him again. Luke in other words became both a literal and metaphorical spectre to haunt Kylo.
 

Cybersai

Banned
Jan 8, 2018
11,631
Just curious how many rebellion members are left? I've seen the movie twice, the vast majority of their ships were destroyed on the way to Crait. At the end it seemed like there was only around 20 people who boarded the Falcon?
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,456
Lorr Sen Tekka helped Luke find the location of the original Jedi Temple at some point in the 30 year interim between RotJ and TFA. That's why he had part of the map. The other part of the map that was in R2 came from when he interfaced with the Death Star. This is dumb EU stuff, so I don't blame you not knowing it.

But in the film, it's never said that Luke made that map so people could find it. It's stated that Luke went to exile himself on a planet he thought he'd never be found on, it's the map to the first Jedi temple, not specifically the map to Luke.

OK, you can't invoke EU stuff. Who the fuck is Lorr Sen Tekka? This is why the plot doesn't work for me. I haven't kept up with EU stuff since the 90s.

What was at the Jedi temple then that Rey needed to go there for? What's the item that would change the balance of power at the Jedi Temple? Why journey there?
 

Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
Dec 9, 2017
1,431
Has he explained why Finn and Rose thought letting the horse dogs roam free for a few hours before they were corralled back to their stables was a good consolation prize to find the code breaker who was going to save the Resistance? That totally didn't make losing the Resistance worth it.
 

TheFireman

Banned
Dec 22, 2017
3,918
Seemed fine to me. Ben was robbed of his revenge on Luke, Luke got to buy time for his Sister and the Rebellion and as far as I could tell there is no way Ben realized he's dead, especially since Luke implied he would see him again. Luke in other words became both a literal and metaphorical spectre to haunt Kylo.

This is why I don't necessarily hate it, because I fully expect him to become a literal spirit haunting Kylo throughout IX. But if at the start of IX Kylo knows Luke is dead, it's going to have been a dumb decision. And it's fully possible the movie will go that way, since Rey and Leia could tell he was.
 

Giolon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,076
Luke's Force projection wasn't something I had a problem with at all. Luke inexplicably dying/"becoming one with the Force" afterwards is the part that I have a problem with. It fits thematically, but doesn't fit logically and isn't consistent with anything we've seen before.
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,061
Han and Leia had breathing apparatus. It was the one way to explain that scene away.

Sorry, I didn't write that properly: that it's not breathable is fine. That their faces are exposed and that there's gravity on the asteroid are the problems scientifically. And that there's sound in space. The lack of atmosphere on the asteroid means they should have had their entire bodies covered.

We don't care because lol that's silly.
 

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,451
San Francisco
Rian Johnson explains a lot of things away. The "I can't be bothered thinking the rules of my time travel story through so let's break the fourth wall and tell you not to think about it" cafe scene in Looper was an eye roller. He's just not a good writer and it's only because it's Star Wars anyone is fighting his corner.

The Brothers Bloom is exceptionally well written.
 

Inferno

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,554
Tampa, FL
OK, you can't invoke EU stuff. Who the fuck is Lorr Sen Tekka? This is why the plot doesn't work for me. I haven't kept up with EU stuff since the 90s.

What was at the Jedi temple then that Rey needed to go there for? What's the item that would change the balance of power at the Jedi Temple? Why journey there?

Max Von Sydow's character.

I linked you a video. They BELIEVE Luke went to the Jedi Temple. They don't KNOW that he did. So they're trying to piece together the map to go there and find Luke, hopefully. Luke absolutely didn't want to be found though, he went there specifically NOT to be found.

The EU stuff isn't necessary to understand this, which I said in my other post.
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,596
Luke being able to force project isn't the problem. Luke dying afterwards is. If he didn't die, it would have been fine. But the way it is, it just seems like a messy, impersonal way of dying.
How is it impersonal? Dying after confronting his own failures, learning to accept them and forgive himself, and passing on his mistakes is an entirely personal way to go out.
 

Contramann

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,404
OK, you can't invoke EU stuff. Who the fuck is Lorr Sen Tekka? This is why the plot doesn't work for me. I haven't kept up with EU stuff since the 90s.

What was at the Jedi temple then that Rey needed to go there for? What's the item that would change the balance of power at the Jedi Temple? Why journey there?
Can you really get mad about the portrayal of a character if you don't remember backstory about them from the previous movie?
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,061
Watching TLJ immediately after ANH really helped the movie resonate more for me.

  • Luke started as a farmer, he's gone back back to being a farmer. He's obviously fallen but it's not actually that unusual for him.
  • The message that started his journey, to help Leia, is the one that inspires him once more to sacrifice himself for Leia and the other rebels.
  • He sacrifices himself like his mentor once did, albeit not giving his fallen apprentice the satisfaction of having killed him.
  • It goes from his optimism and fascination with the Jedi, to being completely disillusioned with them, to realizing once again why the Jedi are good.
  • He uses his father's lightsaber one last time.
  • Obviously, the twin suns.
They're two really great bookends to a forty year journey.

That's really cool, and watching ANH before TLJ is not something I ever thought of doing.
 

Aaron Stack

Banned
Nov 13, 2017
1,557
EU not being Canon is irrelevant because writers can still take from the EU as much as they want as long as it gets past the story team.
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
Everything was explained and built and telegraphed, lol.

The Luke thing especially. Between the power being introduced, Kylo saying, "The effort would kill you," the salt, Luke looking like he did when Kylo knew him, Luke using the destroyed lightsaber and Luke not creating any prints on the ground (ground that was explained by a footstep and the word 'salt' without using up much exposition as others seem to want), the entire thing was there. Some people ITT even said they caught on and apparently didn't like it because it was too obvious.

Everything was explained built and telegraphed in the sense that everything is explained built and telegraphed in every movie. That doesn't mean it was done successfully. The fact that the author feels the need to go to expired EU source material on Twitter to further explain decisions post-mortem tells me there's smoke here. Can you honestly tell me ghost Yoda using force lightning was properly explained and telegraphed? Don't forget, I liked this scene. It's just I can see how some would be irked

As I said in the post you quoted, I also thought the Luke power was telegraphed via the Kylo/Rey stuff. But I can certainly see how many wouldn't. There were simple things that could have been added to the Kylo/Rey stuff that would have improved the telegraphing, a few ideas I came up with off the cuff are posted above, but it's a careful balance the authors have to aim for. This is not black and white, different audiences will expect a different level of commitment before accepting something isn't pulled out of thin air. Clever writing comes from satisfying those people without ruining the surprise, but you'll never satisfy all of them. Some people want things spelled out. Some want Luke to surf in on an X-Wing and force chuck AT-ATs


Are these real complaints that make it a bad movie though? This is the real question. You don't have to like it but saying it was an "AHA PSYKE" moment isn't indicative that it's inherently bad. Putting "aha psyke" in all upper caps doesn't make it inherently bad either. That's pretty much the online version of being louder to pretend your opinion has more weight.

I maintained the posting style used by the poster I quoted. It's like poetry, it rhymes.

I also did not say that psyke moments are inherently bad. I mentioned that I liked both of the scenes Rian is defending with his tweets, although I can fully understand why some people have issues with them. My contention was spelled out in the post you quoted: "A lot of these moments could have been great if some of the others were clipped so the ones that were kept had time to incubate. The movie just wants too hard to keep people guessing and at the same time wraps things up in ways nobody could have guessed. It's bound to annoy anyone whose trying to get into the characters heads and solve things alongside them."

People want different things from movies. Some enjoy the thrill of being surprised and taken for a ride. Some want internal logic and consistency so they can empathize with character plights and solve things alongside them. There's a balance you aim for between these two to ensure you keep both sides happy, but it's a hard mark to hit.

Where I see TLJ going wrong is that the script tries to pull far too many of these sorts of surprises. The more you do this, the more a certain segment of your audience will start to feel duped
 
Last edited:

Laser Man

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,683
Lets be honest, the Emperor randomly shooting lightning out of his fingers at the end of ROTJ is just as out of left field, if not more so, than any of the force abilities from TLJ

With the emperor I've seen it more as his special ability, dude was the big evil wizard and I expected him to have somethng up his sleeve as he was way too comfortable around Luke at the end. The guy had to be dangerous in more than his demeanor or else why would Vader be his bitch and "You don't know how powerful the emperor is!". Why is everyone afraid of that old wrinkley dude... sure he looks like a monster but that can't be it?
So while literal lightning was a surprise, some form of defensive or offensice abilities were expected. We didn't know much about the emperor back then, his set of abilities were undefined, we only knew what we were told and that was that he was powerful, whatever that meant. Turnes out shooting lightning from his hands and falling down a shaft were his strongest skills.

Now with Luke in 2017, we've seen what he could do in 3 movies, he had a framework and thus expectations. There was the possibility that he learned something knew, we didn't know what he was doing all these years while we weren't watching, the movie probably would show us if that was the case... and it did, but the actual surprise was that this ability was used as story twist-element first, not as a random Jedi attack/defense trick like we've seen in the past. That's very different from the emperor, we expected him to be dangerous. Most people (except the clever ones, i.e. not me) didn't expect Luke not to be there in his physical form in that moment. It didn't even crossed my mind that this was supposed to be the same thing like what happened between Kylo and Rey, there I thought that was purely a mental/telepathic experience for them and when someone else was watching one of then talking to each other like that, they would only see one person and not the other, so Kylo talking to himself for example.
 

Contramann

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,404
EU not being Canon is irrelevant because writers can still take from the EU as much as they want as long as it gets past the story team.
Pretty much. If it's in the movies, shows and general EU stuff now it's canon. I mean the story about why Phasma lives is in the EU stuff but it's clearly canon since she's back.
 

Inferno

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,554
Tampa, FL
EU not being Canon is irrelevant because writers can still take from the EU as much as they want as long as it gets past the story team.

Yup. A lot of times the story team are the ones that help shape these ideas too. Like with the light-speed ramming, that was an idea that Rian had, he brought it before the story team, concerned if it was possible within the universe, and they all agreed that it was. Specifically due to the size of Holdo's ship. An X-Wing wouldn't cause the same thing.
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,456
Max Von Sydow's character.

I linked you a video. They BELIEVE Luke went to the Jedi Temple. They don't KNOW that he did. So they're trying to piece together the map to go there and find Luke, hopefully. Luke absolutely didn't want to be found though, he went there specifically NOT to be found.

The EU stuff isn't necessary to understand this, which I said in my other post.

If he wanted to not be found than going to the first jedi temple was a bad idea. Especially if people believed that that is where he went.

Yoda had better hiding plan going to a generic swamp planet.

That was the other weak part of TFA, the fragmented map thing made little sense.

Luke should have just force ghosted himself if he didn't want to be found.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,612
With the emperor I've seen it more as his special ability, dude was the big evil wizard and I expected him to have somethng up his sleeve as he was way too comfortable around Luke at the end. The guy had to be dangerous in more than his demeanor or else why would Vader be his bitch and "You don't know how powerful the emperor is!". Why is everyone afraid of that old wrinkley dude... sure he looks like a monster but that can't be it?
Also Yoda warning Luke, "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor."
 

Inferno

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,554
Tampa, FL
If he wanted to not be found than going to the first jedi temple was a bad idea. Especially if people believed that that is where he went.

Yoda had better hiding plan going to a generic swamp planet.

That was the other weak part of TFA, the fragmented map thing made little sense.

Luke should have just force ghosted himself if he didn't want to be found.

He went to a planet that only he knew the location of. How is that a bad hiding spot? It took years of trying to find him for anyone to piece together the map.
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,456
Can you really get mad about the portrayal of a character if you don't remember backstory about them from the previous movie?

You mean some random guy who no one mentions his name and has a 40 second screen time? What oscar did he win cause yah, I don't remember all the tertiary character with 2 lines of script.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,612
If he wanted to not be found than going to the first jedi temple was a bad idea. Especially if people believed that that is where he went.

Yoda had better hiding plan going to a generic swamp planet.

That was the other weak part of TFA, the fragmented map thing made little sense.
Blame it on JJ then. And TFA gives no indication that Luke wanted to be found. He definitely didn't look like he was happy to be found at the end.

He planned to die where the Jedi were started.
 

TheXbox

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,548
So her biggest flaws are having feels about not knowing her true parents, having hope that someone with conflicting emotions (moreso than Vader no less) would choose to do the right thing, and being briefly seduced by the dark side (before overcoming it quickly)?

Also, didn't she get the best of Luke in that quick bout? AND didn't she rek Kylo in their very first battle the moment she realized she could?

I don't mind the idea of a character who is an unstoppable force prodigy, but not so sure it makes for a compelling lead protagonist. Give me a main character who's arch is more than just a bland hero's journey.
Yes, Rey's major conflict - I'd hesitate to even call it a flaw, but I guess that's how we're measuring the worth of characters - is that she believes her worth is tied to her parentage. She's a no one from nowhere. Part of why she's drawn to Kylo Ren is that he feels the same sense of rejection, and he values her intrinsically (or at least he says he does). Do I have to explain why this is misguided?

No, she did not get the best of Luke. She pulled a lightsaber in a stick fight. She didn't hit him, she didn't try to, and she couldn't have if she tried anyway.

Yes, she beat Kylo in the first film. I'm not retreading that territory for the thousandth fucking time since TFA. Kylo Ren is the better swordsman in TLJ. Watch the Praetorian fight and pay attention to how they cope with numbers. Kylo takes on three, Rey struggles with one.
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,061
Everything was explained built and telegraphed in the sense that everything is explained built and telegraphed in every movie. That doesn't mean it was done successfully. The fact that the author feels the need to go to expired EU source material on Twitter to further explain decisions post-mortem tells me there's smoke here. Can you honestly tell me ghost Yoda using force lightning was properly explained and telegraphed? Don't forget, I liked this scene. It's just I can see how some would be irked

As I said in the post you quoted, I also thought the Luke power was telegraphed via the Kylo/Rey stuff. But I can certainly see how many wouldn't. There were simple things that could have been added to the Kylo/Rey stuff that would have improved the telegraphing, a few ideas I came up with off the cuff are posted above, but it's a careful balance the authors have to aim for. This is not black and white, different audiences will expect a different level of commitment before accepting something isn't pulled out of then air. Clever writing is comes from satisfying those people without ruining the surprise, but you'll never satisfy all of them. Some people want things spelled out. Some want Luke to surf in on an X-Wing and force chuck AT-ATs

No, it was built and telegraphed because it was built and telegraphed. I even went to the liberty of pointing out each instance the Luke projection was, and it was done fantastically. Here, it's clear to me Johnson's having a lot of fun with some of the critics, especially one who dug themselves in a hole arguing for a month that force projection can't exist. None of this needs to be explained (as the prequels show, sometimes explanations are better left alone, otherwise Darth Vader invents C3PO) because the Star Wars series is notorious for introducing new powers. I never needed to have explained how Force Pull was able to work; it was there to allow Luke to escape at the beginning of ESB. I never needed to know why Obi-Wan could wave a hand and make a Storm Trooper do something. I never need it to be explained why the Emperor could use lightning, especially since lightning used in the PT makes me wonder WHY OBI-WAN AND YODA NEVER TOLD LUKE THAT LIGHTNING COULD BE DEFLECTED.

Yoda does it because he can as a Force Ghost. That's it; that's all we need to know, and if you like Star Wars, I easily cannot understand how these things irk people.
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,456
He went to a planet that only he knew the location of. How is that a bad hiding spot? It took years of trying to find him for anyone to piece together the map.

It's a bad hiding spot because it's a location of interest. "Hmmm, maybe luke went to the first temple because that was the rumoured last location."

At least Yoda's location died with Obi-wan and Organa.
 

Contramann

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,404
I maintained the posting style used by the poster I quoted. It's like poetry, it rhymes.

I also did not say that psyke moments are inherently bad. I mentioned that I liked both of the scenes Rian is defending with his tweets, although I can fully understand why some people have issues with them. My contention was spelled out in the post you quoted: "A lot of these moments could have been great if some of the others were clipped so the ones that were kept had time to incubate. The movie just wants too hard to keep people guessing and at the same time wraps things up in ways nobody could have guessed. It's bound to annoy anyone whose trying to get into the characters heads and solve things alongside them."

People want different things from movies. Some enjoy the thrill of being surprised and taken for a ride. Some want internal logic and consistency so they can empathize with character plights and solve things alongside them. There's a balance you aim for between these two to ensure you keep both sides happy, but it's a hard mark to hit.

Where I see TLJ going wrong is that the script tries to pull far too many of these sorts of surprises. The more you do this, the more a certain segment of your audience will start to feel duped
I mean if you want to seem clever at the risk of seeming like an asshole, sure go head and re-use his style.

As it is with the psych-outs, there is nothign at all inherently wrong I'm glad you agree but focusing on them implies that's what you're arguing. Especially when the majority of them aren't even being played as psych-outs. The only psych-outs that are played like psych-outs are the scenes with Snoke, Holdo's plan and Luke's projection. That's pretty much it. Just because something happened you weren't expecting doesn't make it a psych-out and because something happened you didn't expect doesn't make it inherently bad either.

You mean some random guy who no one mentions his name and has a 40 second screen time? What oscar did he win cause yah, I don't remember all the tertiary character with 2 lines of script.
No need to be upset at me if you didn't pay attention. The movie explained it and you still were lost. That's more you fault isn't it?
 

Garjon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,986
I don't understand the people who think Luke should have shown up and fought Kylo and a dozen AT-ATs. Even if he could have beaten them, that sort of action goes completely against all of the teachings of the Jedi and the message of the series in general.
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,542
I don't think there's been a greater example of "head canon" than people's insistence that Luke Skywalker made a map for people to find him in The Force Awakens. And it always comes from people who seem to slavishly obsess over plot details. It's hilarious.
 

shtolky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
640
Also add in
AHA you thought Snoke was special but fuck you we ain't gonna explain his backstory cause hes dead now!
AHA you thought Rey's parents were special but they were nothing from the start!
AHA you thought Rey was going to "get" something from that evil hole but nothing happened!
The movie just felt like they wrote themselves in a corner with the first film and just said *fuck it* nothing matters who cares, I wouldn't have an issue if one or two things were overglossed but every single fucking thing didn't matter or just couldn't be fucked to bother explaining it.


TFA didn't make Snoke appear special at all. He's there for a minute or so and that's it. I just thought he was some asshole who trained the real villain of the trilogy. The emperor is mentioned in ANH and shown for a minute in TESB and I bet people weren't going nuts over his not having a backstory in 1980. Maybe people were, who knows, I wasn't born yet.

TFA didn't make Rey's parents appear special at all. You created that for yourself. Her parents are mentioned, sure, but never are there hints they are special. In fact, looking back on it, Maz pretty much tells Rey they weren't special after her vision. Story wise her parents being nobodies is FAR more interesting than them being related to someone we've already met. That would be a) boring and b) make the galaxy REALLY small.

Just because she doesn't see her parents in that dark side hole doesn't mean the scene wasn't impactful to the story. I suggest you watch it again.


If you honestly believe that the important things revealed in TLJ were "nothing" than I guess you wanted Snoke to be Darth whatever, Rey to be Rey Kenobi, Jr. and god knows what else. Nothing of importance that was established in TFA was glossed over and it's stunning people still think this way.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
I don't think there's been a greater example of "head canon" than people's insistence that Luke Skywalker made a map for people to find him in The Force Awakens. And it always comes from people who seem to slavishly obsess over plot details. It's hilarious.

and this same people think can claim what is "good" writing or "bad" writing.

anything they didnt understand or liked it is BAD WRITING