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Rian Johnson Explains Away One of the Big Complaints in The Last Jedi
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
Like the old saying in politics: if you're explaining. You're losing.
What scene was JJ in the TFA?!? Was he at the bar owned by anal eyes?
He's doing it because his social media pages are getting hammered by death threats from psychotic nerds
I would argue these are different. A new IP doesnt need to explain the backstory of everything, as a viewer you can just accept the state of the world as is. Any additional backstory on the Emperor is nice, but not necessary.
For the new trilogy, we now have a world state directly framed by the preceding events in the OT and beyond. Snoke is the major player shaping the state of the First Order and the opposition to Lukes Jedi training. Snoke is the lore source for the entire inciting event that kicks off the new trilogy and is primarily responsible for the over arching world setting. Having him come out of no where (and also existing during the entirety of the OT) with no explanation or story is sloppy.
The viewer is expected to question his origin and want answers to how we got from the end of the OT to the new Trilogy. This is not necessarily the case for the Emperor. The situations are completely different.
So, force users can shoot lightning out of their hands and people are concerned about a force projection?
Ok...
Ok...
There are some things I agree with (I loved holographic Luke, as well), so let me go over the quibbles:
1) I didn't use the PT to defend TLJ; I even said straight from the post you mentioned that the PT is a great example as to why explaining things can lead to horrific consequences. I brought up the "lightning block" as an aside because g'damn, Obi-Wan and Yoda look like dicks, now. =P xD~~
2) Yes, the Emperor having a big power is cool. Force Pull is there simply as a plot device to get him out of a predicament. They are brought up for plot devices. Empire stops Obi-Wan? He can control their minds. Luke is trapped? Force Pull. Obi-Wan is dead? He can not only speak to Luke, but he can show himself and sit on things (as we see him sit near Luke in ROTJ). Luke is dangling in Cloud City? Speak to Leia telepathically. Emperor says he's unarmed? Lightning. This is Star Wars. This is what Star Wars does. It's okay and needs no exposition.
3) The moment with Luke projecting himself isn't confusing, but there's a tendency for people to want to feel smarter than the movie, which means if they don't understand something, the writing is bad. That leads me to:
4) The movie expertly telegraphs it. Many movies leave many clues as to future big twists, and a good movie will allow you to see what you missed in repeat viewings so you know the movie played fair.
The first or second time Kylo and Rey speak to one another, Kylo wipes away water from his forehead. Despite not being next to her, her surroundings affected him. They touch hands. Luke sees him despite his not being there. Luke is using a broken saber and leaves no footprints in the salt. Luke looks as Kylo remembers him, not as we just saw him. And if Obi-Wan can sit near Luke as a Force Ghost, I'm sure Luke can kiss strong-with-the-Force Leia.
Rian did an expert job leaving bread crumbs there. If you picked up on it, great. If not, the movie played fair with you the whole time. That's good writing.
The only time Force Lightning has been cool was in The Last Jedi.
Well in that case why doesn't Luke carry around a cloud gun, so he and Yoda can combo these n00bs?
I just wanted to add that I personally think Kylo as a villian works much better as the main villain for emotional purposes and as a parallel to Rey. I'm not upset Snoke is not the main bad guy. I'm just mad we don't know shit about him anyways. I've never heard of a film intentionally making a badly developed character to set up for no reason and then kill off without ever explaining a single thing about him.
Pretty much what I'm saying only I'm on mobile and can't be arsed.
I have seen hardly any comolaints with Lukes force projection. Most complaints are with Leia surviving space and flying like superman. There is also the question of Yoda's ghost using Lightning. We have never seen a ghost use force powers and lightning is a power associated with the Sith.
Rian is playing fast and loose with the lore, so people are irked by it.
All this tells me is that if there's a blurb in Episode 9 about where Snoke came from, then everything's explained. For me, it doesn't matter. He's powerful and swayed Kylo Ren, who is the real bad guy and developed villain.
Lightning used as an attack is the Sith. Also, Obi-Wan is surely using the Force to help guide Luke against the Death Star.
The Leia thing is fine (as explained multiple times in this thread), it's the effects that are corny.
Yeah was just going to edit my original post - the idea that prequels were planned/might come out was out there, but my main point is that people treated EP 4-6 as a self contained trilogy.
You were originally making the point that 'gaps' in the storytelling were ok if the author has signaled intent to fill them in later, but the Emperor's presence in the original trilogy is completely fine without explaining his history. The story is not about him, in the same way the story of the sequel trilogy is not about Snoke. Snoke's purpose in TLJ is to facilitate Kylo becoming an even greater threat to the heroes, and also helps Kylo crystallize his 'burn it all down' worldview.
Just because you are interested in Snoke's backstory doesn't mean it's actually important to the story that is being told.
As far as I'm concerned the Force is just traditional fantasy magic in a sci-fi setting, and can be whatever it needs to be provided the user has trained under it.
Jedi or Sith abilities needing to be shown to us beforehand to justify their existence is silly, and limits the scope of the Force to spells out of a Dungeons and Dragons manual.
IMO Leia surviving in space just illustrates to the audience that she was strong in the Force (beyond sensitivity) this whole time and yet chose to become a different type of hero from Luke. Theres no further justification needed.
Yeah Snoke is just an incredibly arrogant moustache twirler who doesn't really have any overarching aims or motive (basically like the Sith and the Emperor, in fact). Whereas Kylo actually has a motive and character depth.
I'm going to play devil's advocate here.... Technically, Yoda summons lightning from clouds. cause you know, "more powerful than you can possibly imagine." (TM)
I'm ok with yoda being the origins story of Odin, and by extension, Thor's father. But the scene was just hokey all around. BTW, expect a cross over from the SWU to the MCU. You heard it here first!
I think for most fans he had to die. As is tradition of Jedi Masters.
Rylo Ken: You can't use Force Projection to speak to me. The effort would kill you.
*Snoke used Force Projection to set up a 3-way conference call, and did it repeatedly*
Luke: I sure wish there was some way for me to not be useless, and that the writers hadn't written my X-Wing off as "broken" as part of an ESB-inspired fakeout.
*Luke finds Force Projection while flipping through the Jedi Texts"
Luke: A short lived illusion, that can kill the user in seconds? I can totally use this to buy loads of time for the Rebels to escape. I won't even need to tell Leia to hurry.
*Snoke used Force Projection to set up a 3-way conference call, and did it repeatedly*
Luke: I sure wish there was some way for me to not be useless, and that the writers hadn't written my X-Wing off as "broken" as part of an ESB-inspired fakeout.
*Luke finds Force Projection while flipping through the Jedi Texts"
Luke: A short lived illusion, that can kill the user in seconds? I can totally use this to buy loads of time for the Rebels to escape. I won't even need to tell Leia to hurry.
But that's the prequels, not important for the first 3 movies. The emperor is different from Snoke insofar that the emperor is crucial to Lukes quest to save his father. We didn't know what evil things Vader did in the OT, he was not a very friendly person, that's for sure. When he became Lukes father in the second movie and Luke started his campaign to bring him back from the dark side, that right there is where the emperor is validated as a character, he is the obstacle to overcome to rescue his fathers soul because the movie made it out as if Vader was under the emperors spell. The entire saga builds up to the showdown of these 3 characters and it ends with the emperors death, quest fullfilled... sort of.
Now in hindsight, Lukes quest for the soul of his father was a bit simple minded, it worked as long as we had to deal with mystic powers that are equivalent to magic, Vader was evil because the emperor made him evil via magic, kinda like that. That was before the prequel trilogy of course, I doubt there is much acceptance for Lukes plan left from the audience at this point.
The overall point is that the emperor works as the third element in the Luke Vader father/son rescue story, there was no need to know anything about the emperors background for that to work. What was neccessary was there! To save your father, kill the wizard that holds power over him!
Now let's compare that to Snoke, he was supposed to be the dude that turned Kylo/Ben, but Kylos relationship to Snoke was completely different. He was never under his spell, Snoke was more like an unlikeable teacher for Kylo, always telling him what to do and Kylo getting angry and showing no real respect to him. It was more like Kylo didn't like Snoke and didn't want to kill his father etc and the only thing that made him not outright kill Snoke was that Snoke was more powerful than him, but we had to guess that in TFA.
Then you introduce the temple incident with Luke, it isn't explained what part Snoke played in that incident, he wasn't even mentioned I believe. Perhaps the darkness Luke felt was Snoke in that moment, but the movie doesn't hint at that, so Snoke is not really important there.
There really isn't any purpose for Snoke existing at that point, he's just there telling Kylo to get rid of his past and get him Rey, until he gets killed.
If you do not use him for some interesting story that fleshes out Kylos or Reys background, then why introduce him in the first place? He should have been cut right there in TFA and just be mentioned in a conversation between Han and Rey or Leia "When Snoke deceived our son, Ben also killed Snoke".
Snoke was the leader of the first order too, we didin't need that to be the guy that compromised Han and Leias son, could have been anybody, wouldn't have made a difference. So now hes gone and the only thing he left behind are questions that wont be answered (I think)
The emperor didn't leave any questions when he died! He fullfilled his purpose, giving Luke the framework for Lukes character progression in 2 movies!
I'm glad Rian Johnson is writing this movie's dialogue and not you.
Nobody is arguing under the premise that flaws are the sole measure of a character's worth, but I do feel that flaws in heroes make them more interesting because they become more human and relatable. It's why Marvel characters like Iron Man, Bruce Banner, Deadpool, Spider-Man, Batman, etc generally take off with audiences a little better than the more OP, basic hero archetypes like Superman.
Rey is far more Superman than any of the other aforementioned characters, and it feels like step backwards in some ways that the new Star Wars protagonist is all hero/badass aside from some sparse moments of being misguided by the seductive qualities of the dark side. There's nothing to explain, it's pretty clear cut, and when future Star Wars eventually (hopefully) feature more complex female heroes (as complex as a SW hero can be, at least lol) I think the point I've been making ITT will be revealed to have held up quite well. It's like she's essentially an unstoppable force prodigy from second one who unwaveringly stands for justice and her main conflict involves maintaining that while coming to terms with how awesome she is. *yawn*
Already reached an agreement on the Luke vs. Rey thing with my previous posts ITT. Moving on...
Regardless of how much Kylo has improved since TFA (and I still don't understand this argument because, manbaby tantrums aside, he's built up to be this intimidating high-ranking force user, apparently trained by BOTH the most powerful Jedi and most powerful villain in the galaxy), it's still puzzling af that someone with very little combat experience can go from 0 to "time to defeat some of the most powerful opponents in the galaxy with far more combat and force experience than me" in a matter of seconds. Puzzling and kinda boring. For now at least. I'm hoping there will be a plot twist in the third movie that recontextualizes her in a more interesting way, but we'll see.
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There was remark in the movie that hinted that Kylo and Rey themselves unintentionally helped a lot with this.
How did DJ know about the cloaked transports? I can't recall any time where Poe told Finn about them being cloaked or Finn telling DJ about the transports. I'm sure DJ probably heard about the transports themselves by listening on Finn and Poe's conversation. But knowing they were cloaked?
I'm actually really curious about this. Not trying to start anything I just would like to know please!
I'm actually really curious about this. Not trying to start anything I just would like to know please!
There's a shot of DJ overhearing Poe tell Finn about the transports after he discovers Holdo's plan, I'm not sure if he added cloaked but I can't actually remember the transports being cloaked at all.
There's a scene where Poe calls Finn and Rose to tell them about Holdo is doing and while he does this, there's a shot of DJ listening to their conversation. It's a quickie so a lot of people miss this on their first viewing.
Oh I mean I got that part for sure. But I'm just trying to remember if Poe even knew that they would be cloaked/invisible.
If transports are always cloaked no matter what then I'm totally okay with that. Or maybe they're just too small to be seen by a normal detector.
I believe the last part is exactly the reasoning Leia gave to Poe about the transports.
Yep. We just had this discussion in another thread where people were trying to argue against the idea that TFA presented Kuke as having a plan.
Which is exactly why you see Luke barely force pulling, and being trained in it, before Vader goes ham in The Empire Strikes back
Except critics were still baffled by the non ending of ESB and no one knew that another trilogy was actually ever happening. We're you not alive before the prequels?
Deductive reasoning can explain that. If there are transports and you don't see them, they're likely cloaked.
Oooh I remember that part! Okay now it's starting to all make sense. I definitely understand how DJ was able to get all that info considering that he's a code breaker.
Thank you very much you three!
But by using it, Luke was able to become legend for taking on a bunch of lazerz
well I was replying to this quote from your previous post: "None of this needs to be explained (as the prequels show, sometimes explanations are better left alone, otherwise Darth Vader invents C3PO) " I realize your injecting some much needed humor with the 3PO comment, but this point sounds dangerously like "nothing needs to be explained because it's been done poorly in the past" which seems like a sharp logical fallacy I wanted to nip in the bud. It does sound like you are saying the new stuff in TLJ does not need explaining and you are siting the prequels as a possible reason why. Concerning the lightning block, Luke had already given up and tossed his saber, so I'm not sure blocking lightning with a saber would have mattered. Luke's trump card was appealing to his father, and the Emperor torturing him allowed him to play it
Force pull in ESB is not a plot device in that it is not there to move the plot forward. It's there to remind us that Luke has magic powers, as his powers and why he has them will be the focus of the movie. That's why this scene is right at the beginning. They could easily have had Luke's lightsaber on his belt if it was a plot device. The point of that scene in ESB is to prepare us for the direction Luke will take. The tension of Luke getting out of the cave is arbitrary and his confrontation with the Wampa has no bearing on the plot
The "people wanting to outsmart the movie" argument is a strawman I see bandied around constantly in these threads. There's no basis for it. How is wanting to understand what is going on as it's happening during the movie the same as wanting to outsmart the movie. As I mentioned before, the scene is clearly written to surprise the audience that Luke isn't there. Yes there are hints he's a projection, but there are also hints that he's real that can't be ignored and those hints were kept in there deliberately.
I'm genuinely curious, when in the movie was it clear to you that Luke was a projection? At what point during your first viewing was it logical that you could have guessed what was going on? I can see how some would see it as confusing because Luke has the broken saber, because he had time to trim his hair, because he is physically interacting with Leia, because he had no way off the temple planet, because he survived the AT-AT canons, because he's not leaving footprints, because he's able to limbo dodge, etc.. etc.. All of this is pointing to something, but has the audience been given the tools to identify what? Are there red herrings included in the above? Identifying why some people found this confusing is not outsmarting the movie, it's showing empathy for the audience
I've only seen the movie once so I don't remember the extent to which the Kylo/Rey stuff showed physicality. I do remember my impression was that Luke was sensing that Kylo and Rey were talking, the same way Rey was sensing Kylo. Did they actually show Kylo walking around in the hut?
I maintain that Rian played his cards close to his chest with this, and that the telegraphing was muted. The evidence is in how heavily the script weighs left turns and surprises, and in the fact that the Luke projection is written to go above and beyond. IMHO, good writing is laying a foundation and not being afraid that a few people will figure out what is going on before the reveal. I maintain there's no reason to believe Luke is a projection until you've seen that whole scene once through. There's plenty of reason to believe something is "up" but we haven't been presented with the context to fully understand what that something is. I think being a bit more overt with it in the Kylo/Rey scenes would've done the climax some favors, assuming it was handled properly. Particularly with regards to having a non-force user see one of the telepresences, or having an object handed off at some point only to disappear. I think either of these scenes could have played well in the narrative as well, with Kylo's desire for the Anakin saber, or having Hux see Kylo with Rey and furthering Hux's distrust of Kylo
"Galaxy awed by alledged return of Luke Skywalker after some people on a garbage freighter claim that he did some stuff"
"Take up arms to fight along side Legendary hero"
"Confused due to his absence"
"I'm afraid to fight against the First Order."
"Luke Skywalker faced a dozen walkers and Kylo Ren by himself."
"If Luke can stand up to them by himself, I can too."
Hence, the end of the movie.
It's not that hard.
It's pretty silly for Jedi to die after briefly confusing and angering their opponent. What about the Masters that need to win fights, or is actual Jedi fighting out of vogue? :P
Man they're in for a rude awakening when they find out he died because of it.
This isn't tiananmen square when a regular person standing in front of a tank inspires the everyman. It's not the Last Samurai where the Samurai defeat/genocide spurred the Emperor to push back against a tidal wave of cultural erosion.
This is a legendary hero and Jedi Master showing up and allegedly doing the impossible and surviving, against a present and ongoing threat.
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While this interpretation is valid (and I agree, reducing the force to D&D spells is lame) there's a balance to be struck. The flip side of your argument is that there will never be any danger for any jedi if they can constantly pull new powers out of their back pocket when needed. Darth Maul got cut in half? He can use the force to stay alive until he gets spider legs (lol). Count Dooku got his hands cut off, no problem, he can force grow new ones. But can he regrow his head? maybe... Snoke can't catch the Raddus? No problem, he can use the force to shut off its engines. Or maybe he can force teleport onto the Raddus and start kicking ass. Why isn't anyone force teleporting yet? Why didn't Luke just force teleport to Crait, why did he bother with the projection? You can see how this is a slippery slope. The way to strike a balance is to telegraph. Don't use the force as a deus ex machina, as it is just begging to be used that way in the wrong hands. The OT was very careful about this
When you say "provided the user has trained under it" are you one of those who believes Rey is OP because she has not received any formal training yet she's able to take on Kylo and do all sorts of tricks? Do you find it odd that Leia was able to survive that bridge explosion despite giving no indication to the audience that she's been trained? Yest we can assume she trained under Luke of screen, but did her mastery of the force surprise and catch you off guard a little, the way it was presented?
Who said anything about him inventing it?... right... like that's the big crux of my issue lol...okay.
I mean
He died on a faraway planet that like two people know how to reach, and he left behind no corpse. It's nearly impossible for anyone to know that he died
This was absolutely not one of the biggest complaints about this movie. As someone who hated it and discusses the movie, ice barely seen anyone have an issue with this power. How about explaining why leia is now the most powerful person on the star wars cinematic universe.
This largely reflects my feelings on the movie. I enjoyed it and am hoping somehow that Episode IX will put it all together somehow, but many parts of TLJ were just annoying to watch.
Considering that the Empire failed miserably at keeping the Emperors death a secret with the iron curtain, and Luke would be expected to be much more active as the Jedi Master Savior. I mean, ehhhhh.
I mean Kylo, the leader of the FO certainly knows.