I like that the hate a few fans have for TLJ has now fully evolved into a hate for any and all Star Wars concept. Having more fun watching this than fans of Zack Snyder react to the reception of the DC movies he was involved in.
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Rian Johnson Explains Away One of the Big Complaints in The Last Jedi
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
Does he? I don't recall anything to indicate that he died to anyone but the viewers.
Leia and Rey both sensed that he had passed on and become one with the Force so it would stand to reason that Kylo would as well.
I'm not going to quote all of this piece by piece because it'll look messy, so I'll respond point by point again:
1) He threw his saber down with no knowledge that it could save him. The prequels opened up an area where explaining how Anakin turned into Darth Vader opened up so many weird things later (Why doesn't Obi-Wan recognize R2D2? Why don't Yoda and Obi-Wan tell Luke how to defend himself against lightning, which they know the Emperor can use? Why are all these ensemble characters all of a sudden crucial characters who knew the OT characters?). Not to mention they
2) No, "people want to be smarter than the movie," is not a strawman; it's what people make money doing with shitty channels like CinemaSins. There is complete basis for it, and this is one point you're not going to convince me against. It's something I've seen for well over a decade now and it is one of the worst things people have used the internet for when trying to talk about movies.
3) You're creating arbitrary distinctions without a difference. The Force Pull in ESB is a plot device. He doesn't get out of his predicament without knowing how to do something we haven't seen established in previous films. The Lightning is a plot device. It gives the Emperor a power since he claimed he was unarmed as he begged Luke to strike him, and that power allows him to torture Luke in front of his father. Telepathically reaching Leia is a plot device. Premonitions over Han/Leia from light years away are a plot device. Luke's confrontation with the Wampa is completely relevant to the plot because the reason he's freezing and collapses is because he's been out there captured for a long time.
4) I realized Luke was a projection when the twist was shown, but I really have no idea what you're asking. We even had someone earlier in the thread who thought it was too obvious, so yes, it can be figured out. I'm not sure you're understanding my point, so here it is again:
"Rian did an expert job leaving bread crumbs there. If you picked up on it, great. If not, the movie played fair with you the whole time. That's good writing."
All of this makes sense on a rewatch for anyone who didn't see this coming because the movie puts the clues there. Kylo is so enraged that he doesn't realize that he's fighting someone using the light saber he saw was destroyed. Not only does the movie lay out that this will happen, but it uses it against the personality of the main villain.
The Last Jedi is basically set-up/payoff for days. It's why it's a fantastic movie.
I kind of hope this is the angle they take with the next movie. Maybe Kylo Ren because he's afraid that Phantom Luke can appear at any time and anywhere and fuck with him.
Didn't Kylo Ren say that (or something like it) to Rey? She's inexperienced. Luke is not.
Regardless I didn't see it as him dying when he disappeared, just like Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't either. They get absorbed into the force but still retain their individuality.
Just gotta say I agree wholeheartedly with your posts in this thread and that line specifically. I saw the movie after hearing all the hate and spoilers, expected to hate it and ended up floored. The excellent set-ups and pay-offs are what really made the movie for me.
No, this isn't explained in the film, so I do understand the confusion, but R2's fragment of the map has nothing to do with Luke. He got it when he interfaced with the Death Star in ANH.
eh, we are reading this scene pretty differently. I see Luke throwing that saber because he's afraid of what he's just done to Vader. He doesn't want to go dark. At that point defending himself is no longer his prerogative. He has no idea what the emperor is capable of, but he's completely surrendering himself to him to walk the light path. Much like at the end of ESB, he chooses death over the dark side, and much like he surrenders himself to Vader on Endor
I think there's a big difference between people wanting to be smarter than the movie and people wanting to able to understand the movie as it unfolds. You can't wave away all criticisms of a movie simply because CinemaSins exists. I do not watch CinemaSins and I saw plenty of issues in TLJ. I watched their TFA episode since you mentioned it here and had to turn it off after about two minutes as it was terrible. Many of the criticisms lobbied against TLJ are not this vapid. People are upset with how the movie turned out. Understanding where they're coming from can help make future movies better
TLJ most definitely prioritizes cheap surprises. We are focusing on the Luke projection because it's in the OP, but I jumped into this thread amidst a listing of other left turns the movie takes amongst three posters. And there are certainly more that weren't mentioned.
Another good example is when Finn and Rose are saved by BB-8 piloting an AT-ST. This same scenario plays out in ROTJ. However, in ROTJ we see Chewie and the ewoks commandeer the walker, we see them learn to pilot it and kick some ass. Later when Han and Leia are in a dire situation, that walker shows up. We feel the tension, but we know there's a chance it's our buds. The reveal is still relieving, we chuckle and wipe our brows
Imagine that scene if we never saw Chewie and the ewoks hop in that walker. A walker just shows up at the end and trains it's gun on Han. Surprise, it's Chewie! Now compare this to BB-8. We haven't seen BB-8 for awhile. We're getting a lot of close up shots of Finn, Rose, and Phasma. The situation sure is dire. Crazy blaster fire from off camera and chaos ensues. Oh, look, it's a walker stomping around shooting all the bad guys. And now the sides of it fall off so we can see it's BB-8...
This is the type of surprise that TLJ revels in. I can understand that has an appeal to some audience members. I can also understand that it is a turn off for others
In this sense, everything is a plot device. My point is that there were a hundred and one ways for the writers to get Luke out of that situation. The reason he does the force pull is not because the plot needed him to. It is specifically to remind us that there is something different about Luke, as this is the 2nd entry in a new series and the force is underexplained as of yet
And my point is that Rian did not do an expert job leaving breadcrumbs. I believe he left just enough hints to justify the twist in retrospect, but nothing more. I would call the job "passable". I believe an expert job would have tied more physicality into the force projection stuff between Kylo/Ren, but I also believe that Rain did not want to do this at the expense of dampening the twist. And do recall, this is a scene that I liked. This is all subjective. How much people wanted telegraphed depends on what they expect from a story. My point is simply that it's reasonable many people found the lack of establishment for this power unsatisfying, and the author seems to be proving that point by trying to tweet the existence of prior establishment. Rian should've stuck to his guns, digging up EU text to satisfy these people just affirms that something was missing
And of course everything makes sense on a rewatch. Once you know what's going on, you can rationalize anything in hindsight. BB-8 piloting that walker will also make sense on a rewatch, I guess. Good storytelling would have let the audience discover the mechanism as it unfolds. I'm not sure the majority of the audience had what they needed in this instance, despite the claims that some people in this thread thought it was too easy to figure out
It was a poor choice of words on my part. I was more getting at the idea that certain Jedi/Sith have had a much longer time with the Force, and present a more believable case for doing cool shit with it. Like, the Emperor could have done just about anything in RotJ and I'd have believed it because the dude practically looks ancient—he's had a long ass time with the Force to learn how it works—and visually it fits into the old master/wizard archetype. In your Snoke example, it might be ridiculous to see him stop a ship, but I'd atleast believe it more than, say Kylo.
In Rey's case I think there's room for raw talent, which (IMO) Anakin, Luke, and Rey are all great examples of: Force-wielders who are strong in the Force, but aren't properly trained in yet so their abilities are still rough around the edges. Leia falls into the same category, though again I think shes had a lot longer to tune into the Force, even if shes not formally trained.
"The legendary jedi Luke Skywalker just got his ass handed to him by the First Order."
"Pretty inspirational. Lets join the resistance"
saw it for the 2nd time today. I loved it the first time and it was even better the second. It's amazing how many little things I missed that I caught in this viewing that made me like the movie more. I gotta say, it's visually my favorite SW movie. The cinematography is so well thought out i.e. angles, depth, colors. I noticed the score much more this time and it's beautiful. The scenes with Luke and Yoda and Luke and Leia are very touching. The scenes with Kylo and Rey are very powerful. The throne scene is up there for best in the series' history. What really became apparent to me was how Kylo, after being admonished by Snoke and destroying his mask in the elevator, decided to put in action the plan to kill Snoke using Rey. He concocted the whole thing just to get her to come to him so Snoke would be distracted. The way Kylo was able to hide his true intentions with the turning saber was so well done. The first time I saw it I didn't notice that while the saber was turning on the arm rest Kylo was also turning his own saber which helped sell the illusion to Snoke.
I now completely understand why they handed Johnson a standalone trilogy. He really delivered. The Last Jedi is my 3rd favorite SW movie in the franchise just behind ANH and ESB. Johnson has carte blanche as far as I'm concerned. What's disappointing is that my two best friends that are SW nerds like me absolutely hate it and refuse to see it a second time. Mostly because they think Luke was character assassinated which I completely disagree with them on. It's too bad because I think they, and others, might appreciate it more on 2nd viewing. Even the Canto Bight scene wasn't as bad as I remembered. It's actually broken up with other scenes so it didn't seem as long and you can definitely see the growing bond Finn and Rose were beginning to have.
I now completely understand why they handed Johnson a standalone trilogy. He really delivered. The Last Jedi is my 3rd favorite SW movie in the franchise just behind ANH and ESB. Johnson has carte blanche as far as I'm concerned. What's disappointing is that my two best friends that are SW nerds like me absolutely hate it and refuse to see it a second time. Mostly because they think Luke was character assassinated which I completely disagree with them on. It's too bad because I think they, and others, might appreciate it more on 2nd viewing. Even the Canto Bight scene wasn't as bad as I remembered. It's actually broken up with other scenes so it didn't seem as long and you can definitely see the growing bond Finn and Rose were beginning to have.
And you're not the only one confused about the hate, either. Glad you enjoyed it! As many people I know did, watching it more times just increases your appreciation for the film. =)
See? Like this guy. ;)
Holy moly, there's so much wrong with this entire post, and I don't really don't feel like going point-for-point again, but this part struck me the most:
"And of course everyghint makes sense on a rewatch. Once you know what's going on, you can rationalize anything in hindsight."
This is totally wrong and really makes me call into question if you really know as much as you're trying to project. A good movie will make sense on a rewatch. A bad movie will become more confusing on a rewatch or expose more shortcomings. The concept of a twist seems to be eluding you completely for whatever reason, but the movie doesn't just "passably" leave bread crumbs about the big twist at the end -- it expertly does. It's why everything that was put into the movie had a purpose, everything about force projection was explained without needing to use endless exposition. And so once you watch it again, you don't have to rationalize a thing. Instead, you see that the movie was playing fair the entire time. See the guy I quoted above. A good movie will do that. A bad movie requires rationalizing. Why are you conflating the two?
It seems like you're just handwaving everything I'm saying, so I feel if I try to elaborate further, it'll fall on deaf ears.
And for the most part I agree with you. I feel Rey's victory over Kylo was sensible, and for the most part I feel her development has been earned. I see her as having raw power but needing help being able to control it
But based off your last paragraph, I think you are also seeing where there are some blurry lines here. Where we don't want to limit force use to D&D spells and power levels, but we also need a distinction between who can do what to prevent chaos. I.e. it makes more sense for Snoke to shut off those engines than Kylo. Perhaps you can understand now why some people may have found the Leia scene a bit of a bridge to far? Perhaps they would say something similar, i.e. "I'd have believed it if Snoke did it"
These distinctions all come back to writing, telegraphing, and characterization. We can like the movie, but we can also see how maybe adding in some indication that Leia has some kind of powers (or even filming this in a less extreme way) may have eased the believability for those who need a bit more convincing
They just saw him getting blasted by hundreds of missles and then did this:
And then the whole reason they were there, to kill the rest of the Resistance, was ruined because Luke pissed off their leader.
Luke faced them and WON. Did you sleep through the entire last act?
They just saw him getting blasted by hundreds of missles and then did this:
And then the whole reason they were there, to kill the rest of the Resistance, was ruined because Luke pissed off their leader.
You had the same idea but found a better quality gif than I did.
awful. Right up there with the nasty ass titty milk shot.
Luke did a cheesy move to piss off, anger and embarrass a child. How dare he /s
I really liked how everyone is framed and directed to make you feel something is off but you really can't know because, really, who's going to guess that he's Force projecting himself? The fact that you never see him fly there, just appears from a doorway made out of light, the younger look, him just walking out there in front of all those ATATs and the lightsaber.
Not trying to handwave. As I mentioned, I put two and two together when the twist was revealed. I connected it to the Rey/Kylo scenes. I even connected Luke's death to Kylo's comment about "this would kill you" to Rey. Thus, I understand what you are referring to concerning bread crumbs. I'm just not agreeing, and I don't think we will agree. I see that clues were left in the movie that will make sense on a second viewing, and who knows, maybe my opinion will change on a second viewing. I also see that what Luke does goes well beyond what we see from Rey/Kylo, and that red herrings such as the dice were included to throw people off. I think mixed messages are sent, but these are my thoughts, you don't have to agree. Much like mixed messages were sent about Rey's parentage, and the result is a number of people are disappointed (Note, I am not one of those people, I loved the Rey's parents reveal, I am merely curious in understanding why some people are upset by these twists and I think the clues are in how they are built up). I do not think people's criticisms of these items are disengenious
I think enough people are complaining about this that it got to the author, so he felt the need to use outside sources to prop up his decisions. I see this as a bit of an admission that the people complaining this final twist blindsided them may have had a point. It doesn't ruin the scene for me in any way. I still think it was a great way to send Luke off, and I suspect most of the people complaining about it were actually more unhappy with the way Luke ended than with the power and the twist. But I also see how this reveal would have blindsided the audience in a way that many may have been unhappy about
No, I see it as him having fun with people who are lambasting a decision about a new technique, and I can't think of a better way to do that than to let them dig in for a month before revealing that it already existed in Star Wars lore (not that it mattered as EU also made up Force techniques). Using comical gifs to explain it and even posting pics of him pulling the book out and opening it are big clues to that.
The hyerspace kamikaze was an awesome shot. The shoulder wipe? Basura
If Luke shows up in the flesh and takes all that blaster fire from the Walkers then that breaks the SW force rules more than the Holdo maneuever in my opinion. That is an escalation of force powers that poses all kinds of problems dramatically. RJ exercised restraint in introducing these new powers and I applaud him for that.
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Then what is? Is it really significant about that you need to get indignant about it?
Did you sleep through what happens right after?
I guess pissing off the bad guy with anger issues counts as a victory.
No, he gave the rebels enough time to escape which was the main goal. Actually attempting to take on the first order would have led to Luke "getting his ass handed to him".
Some real low quality trolling again.
- Deprived Kylo the chance to kill him
- Deprived Kylo the full victory he hoped to get
- Humiliated Kylo Ren in front of the First Order
- Bought time for Leia and co. to leave
- Managed to die without Kylo or the First Order ever figuring it out.
Sounds like a victory, pyhrric maybe but it's still an underdog victory.
Cause the whole point was for Luke to distract Kylo and the New Order long enough for the evacuation of the trapped resistance.
Regardless of the powers of Luke at the time (who lets face it...stopped connecting with the force for years)..he couldn't garauntee to survive long enough as a real life corporal distraction. By being a controllable, unkillable projection..he can ensure to endure as long as is needed.
People nitpicked Rey swimming, you think they didn't nitpick this?
Spoilers: they did.
Leia force-pulled herself? I assumed Kylo scooted her in based on the scene with him prior to the bridge getting blown up.
In which case he's trolling, which doesn't surprise me considering the script for TLJ