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Member
Apr 13, 2019
2,031

poe got demoted for being a reckless jackass

it was right there in the post

he wasn't in the loop because he could have done some more reckless jackass stuff to fuck everything up and even still he found a way to do some more reckless jackass stuff anyway and fucked everything up

The reason boiled down to "you're too reckless, sacrificed nearly all our starships which was our only advantage against these capital ships for your own glory, and was more caring about killing a dreadnought then the lost of all our bombers". Which, given how he immediately goes "let's risk it all on an insane ploy" and said ploy costing even more lives, she has a point.

He wasn't in a position to be told. He got demoted for disobeying orders. Nothing else is needed.

Right, I think its a valid reason, what im saying is was that made clear in the movie by Holdo? I mean she had a mutiny in her hands, showing that not only Poe but a big part of the resistance was unhappy with the "we know nothing" direction, and still she did nothing to prevent it. Her speech saying they needed to hold on to hope did nothing to help the rebellion's fears, all im saying is her making her motives clear, saying they had a plan but couldn't go to details, explaining to someone or somehow her reasons so we as an audience knew why but not the rebellion, etc, would have helped alot with this. It may seem to be sufficient to infer that it was because he was reckless and a captain, but even the rebellion Ryan wrote wasn't having it, since they mutiny.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Right, I think its a valid reason, what im saying is was that made clear in the movie by Holdo? I mean she had a mutiny in her hands, showing that not only Poe but a big part of the resistance was unhappy with the "we know nothing" direction, and still she did nothing to prevent it. Her speech saying they needed to hold on to hope did nothing to help the rebellion's fears, all im saying is her making her motives clear, saying they had a plan but couldn't go to details, explaining to someone or somehow her reasons so we as an audience knew why but not the rebellion, etc, would have helped alot with this. It may seem to be sufficient to infer that it was because he was reckless and a captain, but even the rebellion Ryan wrote wasn't having it, since they mutiny.

not a big part

only like 6 people out of hundreds if not thousands

thousands who died because of his reckless bullshit
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
That's bullshit. That's pretty much exactly what he's doing. He wants her to leave... as if to say, is this the great Luke Skywalker you were hoping to find here?

the themes even resonate further out than that, like Rian wanted the theater audience to leave, as if to say "is this the great Star Wars you were hoping to find here?"
 

Javier23

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,904
I'm not the biggest fan of the franchise, but TLJ was easily my favorite and I look forward to an entire trilogy made by the same guy. I'll definitely be staying away from the threads though lmao.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
Right, I think its a valid reason, what im saying is was that made clear in the movie by Holdo? I mean she had a mutiny in her hands, showing that not only Poe but a big part of the resistance was unhappy with the "we know nothing" direction
No. It was Poe, Poe's squadron, and one other person who trusted Poe. That was not a big part of the resistance, it was literally just Poe and his friends.
 

Future Gazer

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
4,273
I just don't know how a rational person could think that Poe was in the right. The guy has a problem following orders, a problem that leads to disastrous losses for the Resistance in the beginning of the goddamn movie, and you still get dudes who think he is right to CONTINUE to not follow orders as if him following them should be conditional in some way.

Poe obviously acted like a fool, I'm not sure anyone really disagrees with that. But Holdo's complete lack of communication in such a critical and time sensistive situation was dumb as shit. They both acted like incompetent clowns.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
I just don't know how a rational person could think that Poe was in the right. The guy has a problem following orders, a problem that leads to disastrous losses for the Resistance in the beginning of the goddamn movie, and you still get dudes who think he is right to CONTINUE to not follow orders as if him following them should be conditional in some way.

It's not like you have to follow orders, mind. Anakin frequently ignored the orders of the Jedi Council and saved billions of lives doing so. Poe was just an idiot that overplayed his hand and others suffered for it. I'm really curious what conclusion we'll get to his story because we actually don't know anything about the guy except he's a good pilot and Leia sees potential in him.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
He wasn't in a position to be told. He got demoted for disobeying orders. Nothing else is needed.
The resistance was barely a few hundred people strong at that point and someone pointed out nobody was even promoted to fill his position. And it belies the fact that his actions in the prior movie - AND the opening of this one - turned out to be the correct actions that saved the Resistance.

But not only was he not told, NOBODY ELSE WAS TOLD EITHER. Hence why others joined him in the mutiny. The whole point of the mutiny was they kept asking for reassurances - a plan, an explanation, HOPE - and they received nothing at all from their leader, leading them all to assume the worst and to try and come up with their own plans to save the Resistance.

That's terrible leadership that also severely undercuts what was needed for the scared, panicking, desperate people who were looking for any sign of competent authority and a plan of action. The message to "blindly just follow orders, soldier, and trust your superiors" is actually pretty heinous and sort of a complete counter to the message Finn learned one movie prior.
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,836
I'd agree it was reading into things if not for the fact the dude is staring her down while he's doing it.

That's bullshit. That's pretty much exactly what he's doing. He wants her to leave... as if to say, is this the great Luke Skywalker you were hoping to find here?

All of that was established well before that scene. He tosses the lightsabre aside. He says it himself telling her to specifically to go away before that moment and asks her 'why do you think I came here'. I have a hard time believing that after he says that, he thinks to himself, you know what, I'm going to drink milk out of a nipple to drive that point home.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
Poe obviously acted like a fool, I'm not anyone really disagrees with that. But Holdo's complete lack of communication in a such a critical and time sensistive situation was dumb as shit. They both acted like incompetent clowns.
She. Is. An. Admiral.

He. Is. A. Captain. A demoted captain with a record of disobeying orders.

If he were a perfect sildier he still wouldn't be entitled to having the admiral explain herself to him. That he was a captain freshly busted down to that rank entitled him to even less than that.

The only incomptent thing she did was not immediately toss his ass in the brig for insubordination.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
All of that was established well before that scene. He tosses the lightsabre aside. He says it himself telling her to specifically to go away before that moment and asks her 'why do you think I came here'. I have a hard time believing that after he says that, he thinks to himself, you know what, I'm going to drink milk out of a nipple to drive that point home.

i mean she is literally following him like a little puppy
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,576
Poe obviously acted like a fool, I'm not anyone really disagrees with that. But Holdo's complete lack of communication in a such a critical and time sensistive situation was dumb as shit. They both acted like incompetent clowns.
Poe was told everything he needed to be told. You're right, it was a critical and time sensitive situation, and it makes sense that Holdo would tell anyone the bare minimum of what they need to know.

I really don't understand how people sympathize with Poe here. The idea that an unruly subordinate who refuses to follow orders deserves greater explanation in order for him to follow orders is ridiculous.
 

Bad Advice

Member
Jan 8, 2019
795
Why are people rooting so hard for Rian Johnson here? I don't recognize any if his other work except for the 3 Breaking Bad episodes and his one Star Wars movie was terrible. I remain skeptical.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
those cannons excel at orbital bombarding.

it doesnt make any difference if it was the supremacy or the dreadnaught shooting at the rebels.

it was for nothing.



don waste your time, like 6 people mutinied and the rest were on holdo side.

I agree that orbital bombardment is their main purpose but the guns were aimed at the Raddus just before Paige took them out so the movie shows them to have more than on use
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Poe was told everything he needed to be told. You're right, it was a critical and time sensitive situation, and it makes sense that Holdo would tell anyone the bare minimum of what they need to know.

I really don't understand how people sympathize with Poe here. The idea that an unruly subordinate who refuses to follow orders deserves greater explanation in order for him to follow orders is ridiculous.

the reason they sympathize with him it is because of what he has between his legs
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,620
Why are people rooting so hard for Rian Johnson here? I don't recognize any if his other work except for the 3 Breaking Bad episodes and his one Star Wars movie was terrible. I remain skeptical.
One possible explanation is that there are people who like his TV and film work and want to see more stuff from him.
 

kvetcha

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,835
Why are people rooting so hard for Rian Johnson here? I don't recognize any if his other work except for the 3 Breaking Bad episodes and his one Star Wars movie was terrible. I remain skeptical.

Three excellent original movies, three great BB episodes, and the second best Star War. Why wouldn't I be rooting for him?
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Poe was told everything he needed to be told. You're right, it was a critical and time sensitive situation, and it makes sense that Holdo would tell anyone the bare minimum of what they need to know.

I really don't understand how people sympathize with Poe here. The idea that an unruly subordinate who refuses to follow orders deserves greater explanation in order for him to follow orders is ridiculous.
Apparently not, since "what he needed to know" was "explain to me why our entire Resistance won't get SLAUGHTERED right now?"

That is NOT "need to know" information. That is information EVERYONE involved in such a sensitive situation should be clued in on, no matter if it's a captain, disgraced pilot, prisoner of war, janitor, droid... This is their very survival at stake.

Being told "shut up and do as you're told" while it looks like the Titanic is sinking and the Captain appears to just be going "stay the course" is horrible leadership.

Admirals lead by inspiring trust and confidence in their troops. She utterly failed to do that with Poe and several others during a moment where their very mortality was coming down to a very thin wire.

Even if he was considered reckless and insubordinate, the very first thing he says after being told the plan in the movie is "oh, that's a good plan".

It's extremely frustrating.
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,836
One possible explanation is that there are people who like his TV and film work and want to see more stuff from him.

It is weird to see some people prop up his critical reception and box office reception and then turn around and say fuck JJ.

They've both made critical and box office hits.
 
OP
OP
Ryan.

Ryan.

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
12,883
The first couple of minutes here is an interesting view of the scene:


Poe probably would have been told what was going on had he not blew up on Holdo and the entire bridge.

The resistance was barely a few hundred people strong at that point and someone pointed out nobody was even promoted to fill his position. And it belies the fact that his actions in the prior movie - AND the opening of this one - turned out to be the correct actions that saved the Resistance.

But not only was he not told, NOBODY ELSE WAS TOLD EITHER. Hence why others joined him in the mutiny. The whole point of the mutiny was they kept asking for reassurances - a plan, an explanation, HOPE - and they received nothing at all from their leader, leading them all to assume the worst and to try and come up with their own plans to save the Resistance.

That's terrible leadership that also severely undercuts what was needed for the scared, panicking, desperate people who were looking for any sign of competent authority and a plan of action. The message to "blindly just follow orders, soldier, and trust your superiors" is actually pretty heinous and sort of a complete counter to the message Finn learned one movie prior.
Nobody else was told? And how big do you think the actual mutiny was? When was the last time you guys have actually watched this?
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
Why are people rooting so hard for Rian Johnson here? I don't recognize any if his other work except for the 3 Breaking Bad episodes and his one Star Wars movie was terrible. I remain skeptical.
Maybe because all four of his theatrical films to date (yes including TLJ) are critically acclaimed and he is seen as a very very good director?
 

Browser

Member
Apr 13, 2019
2,031
She. Is. An. Admiral.

He. Is. A. Captain. A demoted captain with a record of disobeying orders.

If he were a perfect sildier he still wouldn't be entitled to having the admiral explain herself to him. That he was a captain freshly busted down to that rank entitled him to even less than that.

The only incomptent thing she did was not immediately toss his ass in the brig for insubordination.
I understand and I agree. But what I'm saying is, her strategy did more harm then good in the long run. Her not telling anyone about the plan, specially a rebellion with hundreds of people, so a dying rebellion, was in the end part of their almost complete demise.

I mean look at it from a soldier's perspective. The fuel was running out, they could not outrun the first order, and you commanders tell you there' s noting to do but hope. Poe disobeyed orders, and his demotion made sense, but him trying whatever he could think of to save everyone from what he saw as inaction from his leader at least made sense, even tho was a stupid decision. I'm saying Holdo's decision to not say the plan, tho within her rights and understandable, was just as prejudicial as Poe sending finn and rose to the casino planet.

And again, at least clearly tell us, the audience, what the reason is somehow. We were put in Poe's shoes by Rian giving us the information Poe had instead of putting us on par with Holdo. That way we could see it from her eyes and understand her actions more.
 

Fonst

Member
Nov 16, 2017
7,068
Some of this stuff falls under BvS levels of analyzing like the Luke drinks milk out of a nipple to purposefully shatter his mystisicism from Rey's perspective. That's some 4D level chess being played here lol... can't tell if this a satire or not.

Wait, people have issue that it shows him drinking on an island in the middle of nowhere? Not only shows people what he drinks/eats but how he gets that sustenance.

Like seriously?
 

NinjaGarden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,550
Apparently not, since "what he needed to know" was "explain to me why our entire Resistance won't get SLAUGHTERED right now?"

That is NOT "need to know" information. That is information EVERYONE involved in such a sensitive situation should be clued in on, no matter if it's a captain, disgraced pilot, prisoner of war, janitor, droid... This is their very survival at stake.

Being told "shut up and do as you're told" while it looks like the Titanic is sinking and the Captain appears to just be going "stay the course" is horrible leadership.

Admirals lead by inspiring trust and confidence in their troops. She utterly failed to do that with Poe and several others during a moment where their very mortality was coming down to a very thin wire.

Even if he was considered reckless and insubordinate, the very first thing he says after being told the plan in the movie is "oh, that's a good plan".

It's extremely frustrating.
Then he leaks it to the enemy, ruining the plan and getting almost everyone killed.

But it's Holdo's fault. Right.
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,836
Wait, people have issue that it shows him drinking on an island in the middle of nowhere? Not only shows people what he drinks/eats but how he gets that sustenance.

Like seriously?

I said none of that but okay...

I really don't understand how people sympathize with Poe here. The idea that an unruly subordinate who refuses to follow orders deserves greater explanation in order for him to follow orders is ridiculous.

I'm sure there's some people that will point to people being sexist and I'm sure it's true but I just assumed people didn't like it and sympathized with Poe because Poe's the loveable hero and she's standing in his way.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
I understand and I agree. But what I'm saying is, her strategy did more harm then good in the long run. Her not telling anyone about the plan, specially a rebellion with hundreds of people, so a dying rebellion, was in the end part of their almost complete demise.

I mean look at it from a soldier's perspective. The fuel was running out, they could not outrun the first order, and you commanders tell you there' s noting to do but hope. Poe disobeyed orders, and his demotion made sense, but him trying whatever he could think of to save everyone from what he saw as inaction from his leader at least made sense, even tho was a stupid decision. I'm saying Holdo's decision to not say the plan, tho within her rights and understandable, was just as prejudicial as Poe sending finn and rose to the casino planet.

And again, at least clearly tell us, the audience, what the reason is somehow. We were put in Poe's shoes by Rian giving us the information Poe had instead of putting us on par with Holdo. That way we could see it from her eyes and understand her actions more.

why people keep saying she told nobody??????????
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
The first couple of minutes here is an interesting view of the scene:


Poe probably would have been told what was going on had he not blew up on Holdo and the entire bridge.

Nobody else was told? And how big do you think the actual mutiny was? When was the last time you guys have actually watched this?

Apparently it wasn't widespread enough for a very small resistance to let him know either. It didn't have to come from Holdo.

The resistance by the end of the film was... not a lot of people.
d328c5e992fb7389edb5bbf7f213577c.jpg


By the time they get to Crait the rebellion base shows only a few dozen fighters left.

So either Holdo withheld key mission intel from other prominent Resistance personnel, or she did tell everyone and the whole Resistance didn't let Poe know that they had a solid plan in the works (apparently Rose and Finn were ALSO not told, which led to more issues).
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,046
I said none of that but okay...



I'm sure there's some people that will point to people being sexist and I'm sure it's true but I just assumed people didn't like it and sympathized with Poe because Poe's the loveable hero and she's standing in his way.

Yeah, I think people are generally supposed to identify with the scrappy, passionate young hero when he's up against an older authority figure. Especially in the Star Wars canon where "Hot Shot Pilot" is an archetype that is pretty well established.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
All of that was established well before that scene. He tosses the lightsabre aside. He says it himself telling her to specifically to go away before that moment and asks her 'why do you think I came here'. I have a hard time believing that after he says that, he thinks to himself, you know what, I'm going to drink milk out of a nipple to drive that point home.

What do you think the point of the scene was then?

She insists on staying and following his daily routine. He wants her to piss off. He's doing things that will gross her out and continue to question her decision to find him and enlist his help
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
Apparently not, since "what he needed to know" was "explain to me why our entire Resistance won't get SLAUGHTERED right now?"

That is NOT "need to know" information. That is information EVERYONE involved in such a sensitive situation should be clued in on, no matter if it's a captain, disgraced pilot, prisoner of war, janitor, droid... This is their very survival at stake.

Being told "shut up and do as you're told" while it looks like the Titanic is sinking and the Captain appears to just be going "stay the course" is horrible leadership.

Admirals lead by inspiring trust and confidence in their troops. She utterly failed to do that with Poe and several others during a moment where their very mortality was coming down to a very thin wire.

Even if he was considered reckless and insubordinate, the very first thing he says after being told the plan in the movie is "oh, that's a good plan".

It's extremely frustrating.
...
This is not how any military operation ever has worked, what are you even on about? The brass on the bridge are the people who needed to know what was going on. They knew. None of them had a problem. If Poe wanted to know so desperately, he could relay the question to his commanding officer instead of the god damn admiral, ya know, rhe chain of command, and if said CO decided Poe needed to know they would either make a command decision and inform him, or run it up to their CO for permission. That no officer above Poe felt the need to inform Poe tells you that Poe's reckless ass had no right to know.
 

Javier23

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,904
I was a big fan of Star Wars until I watched the prequels then I quit caring until I watched TLJ. TLJ has revitalized Star Wars for me.
I had this feeling watching it in the movie theatre that it is the only movie since the original trilogy that truly gets the spirit of it. But you'll never catch me saying that around here, specially since I'm not such a die hard fan as many others here and arguments over it just bore me.

Either way, I really enjoyed watching the original three as a kid multiple times over the years, the prequels were a thing that happened that I last saw like over a decade ago, TFA felt like a really well produced but ultimately hollow best hits remix of the first three, and TLJ, despite very low expectations, somehow wormed its way into my brain for a few days afterwards. Felt so much more substantial and interesting. I never thought I'd care enough again about the franchise to actually be somewhat excited for more.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Then he leaks it to the enemy, ruining the plan and getting almost everyone killed.

But it's Holdo's fault. Right.
That's actually a SEPARATE issue from Holdo withholding the mission parameters. His information was leaked to a spy, and the point of a spy is you're not supposed to know they were the enemy. It's never intentional, and the story contrived it to be that way.

You could have just as easily had someone within the Resistance just outright betray Holdo as their numbers dwindle to a few dozen and reach out to the First Order in exchange for leniency, and then everyone would've gone "Oh, Holdo's info wound up in enemy hands. She should've known better. But POE'S the one who was wrong."

As an audience surrogate, Poe is our eyes and ears, and Holdo's role in the story is to demonstrate leadership qualities that would make us, the audience, want to trust and believe in her. The film does not frame this in a way that we would. It's a "gotcha!" moment in the film, but only because the story worked backwards from the misunderstanding.

...
This is not how any military operation ever has worked, what are you even on about? The brass on the bridge are the people who needed to know what was going on. They knew. None of them had a problem. If Poe wanted to know so desperately, he could relay the question to his commanding officer instead of the god damn admiral, ya know, rhe chain of command, and if said CO decided Poe needed to know they would either make a command decision and inform him, or run it up to their CO for permission. That no officer above Poe felt the need to inform Poe tells you that Poe's reckless ass had no right to know.
This is a resistance. Guerrilla fighters and civilian sympathizers. At this point, the "chain of command" is a few DOZEN people. This isn't an army; it's a rag-tag group of dying survivors. I had more people in my graduating class in high school than they did Resistance fighters by the time they make it to Crait.

They're pathetically outnumbered, outgunned, outmanned. They're dying like flies. Everything is going wrong. They have no fuel, no weapons, no resources. Their leadership is already in disarray as veterans they looked up to - Ackbar, Leia, etc - are dying off and being put out of commission.

This is why a military operation at this point would focus on "rallying the troops". It's why generals give speeches to their charges to inspire and lead and get everyone on the same page, even for a strategic retreat.

Someone already mentioned, it's a "military" so pathetic that Poe got "demoted" and yet they never had anyone qualified to replacement. Nobody actually got promoted to his vacant position because they were so low on troops and didn't have time to go through proper channels for a suitable replacement.

This isn't a "by the books" operation from a well-run military power. It's a bunch of scared civies with a select few military personnel (again, down to the double-digits) at the very brink of ruin. This was less a "military operation" and more of a "plan of SURVIVAL" because their enemy was not going to take prisoners of war. They were made clear they were aiming to WIPE THEM OUT.

That is not the time to calmly tell the last few survivors - who have fought and bled and nearly died over and over for this imbalanced war - to shut up and stop being so reckless as they feel more and more backed into a corner.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Ryan.

Ryan.

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
12,883
Apparently it wasn't widespread enough for a very small resistance to let him know either. It didn't have to come from Holdo.

The resistance by the end of the film was... not a lot of people.
d328c5e992fb7389edb5bbf7f213577c.jpg


By the time they get to Crait the rebellion base shows only a few dozen fighters left.

So either Holdo withheld key mission intel from other prominent Resistance personnel, or she did tell everyone and the whole Resistance didn't let Poe know that they had a solid plan in the works (apparently Rose and Finn were ALSO not told, which led to more issues).
She probably only told the people who needed to know. If she didn't tell Poe why would she tell the rest of the Resistance? And why would Rose and Finn, who are off on their own mission going against the rest of the Resistance which no one but Poe's mutiny knows about, know about Holdo's plan?
 

kvetcha

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,835
As an audience surrogate, Poe is our eyes and ears, and Holdo's role in the story is to demonstrate leadership qualities that would make us, the audience, want to trust and believe in her. The film does not frame this in a way that we would. It's a "gotcha!" moment in the film, but only because the story worked backwards from the misunderstanding.

See, this is a perceptive criticism.
 

Mcfrank

Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,216
Didn't Leia know the plan as well? She didnt tell Poe either, but no one seems to hold it against her.
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,836
She insists on staying and following his daily routine. He wants her to piss off. He's doing things that will gross her out and continue to question her decision to find him and enlist his help

You mentioned he's doing things to gross her out. Plural. Were there other moments of him trying to gross her out? I can't recall anything else.