-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Rian Johnson on the Freedom of his Star Wars Trilogy (Yes, he's still making them) and Knives Out
- Thread starter Ryan.
- Start date
She also never said she could use the Force like that. What else is Leia withholding from us?!
Yep. Obviously a sizable enough group were told or Holdo wouldn't have been able to execute her plan so quickly lol
Do you know the way in which the military mitigates the risk of spreading information to spies?
By limiting information to only the people who need to know.
The second Poe knows he goes and tells another person who does not need to know and lo and behold it gets to a spy. Demonstrating why military tactics are kept to a need to know basis.
"Oh, but how would Finn have found them again if Poe hadn't told him?" Tough shit. Shouldn't have sent him out on a aecret mission because your ego wasn't being properly massaged. Tell him to lay low and pick him ip later.
I'm honestly not sure if I've seen this, ever, on ERA. The only thing that comes close is her not immediately locking up Poe after barging in and throwing a tantrum for not being in the know, hours after a demotion.
I once argued with someone who literally criticized Holdo because "her satin finish dress is too contemporary for Star Wars"
Which is, again, a SEPARATE ISSUE from Holdo's actions.
Hell, if Poe was told, Finn and Rose never would've left, never would've ran into the spy, never contacted Poe for an update, and the spy never would've learned about it to tell the enemy. At this point, Poe STILL didn't know Holdo's plan, so her lack of being forthcoming didn't even give him the information to prevent him from making this desperate mistake trying to save everyone.
Am I wrong? If Holdo had clued him in, the information never would've left the station because Rose and Finn wouldn't have left the station. It was Rose and Finn's plan to leave in the first place and if Poe knew there was a better alternative (again, he 100% was on-board once he was told Holdo's plan), he would've told them to stay put instead of bail to try and do a suicide stealth mission to save everyone.
Finn and Rose could've left on their own without even informing Poe, the situation would've played out the same when they reached back to him for an update.
Poe is litteraly in trouble for disobeying a direct order and sending people on a do or die mission. He also, vehemently hates Holdo's idea and starts complaining about it to anyone in earshot. He's a risk and the only true mistake was Holdo not throwing him away in a cell so he would not fuck things up.
How would Holdo know that not telling him would lead to this string of actions? When you dont want info getting out, you dont release it. This is on Poe, not Holdo.
I think her not talking about the plan was a bad move because in the context they were telling the plan it would alleviate and help more than harm, but whatever mistake Poe did was his own fault, not Holdos.
Holdo: Hope is the most important thing.
Rebels: Then please give us some hope that we will survive.
Holdo: ..........no.
Poe was being insubordinate by withholding crucial intel from his CO and going off on his own anyway. The first thing he should have done is told Holdo Rose and Finn's theory about the tracker and how to disable it but no he thought only he knew best and put everyone at increased risk
No. It isn't. Holdo is witholding information because that is how the military works.
"If Holdo had given Poe special treatment he would have never secretly endangered the mission because he wasn't being properly fellated."
Yes. Notice how no one else threw a shit fit and and decided they knew better than the entire command structure. Because not knowing the plan when you don't need to know is standard operating procedure.
"Officer, I wouldn't have gotten this ticket id you had just ignored me running that red light."
You know what? you are right. i watched it once years ago. Im going to watch it again and come back with a fresh perspective.
Yep. I have not seen one single criticism of Holdo on this forum that wasn't blatantly sexist so far.
Literally the only reason that makes sense for people to get so bent out of shape is because she is a woman and he is a man. Because there is literally no sane way to argue why the person in charge of the entire fleet should be expected to tell their top secret plan to lower level captain.
That and I have lost track how many times here when pressed they start to complain that she wears a dress and has purple hair lol.
I have yet to see a single woman anywhere have this issue, its always men. Which is pretty telling honestly. I would love to see an actual criticism of her that wasn't steeped in misogyny. Have yet to see it though.
Last edited:
He said he'll probably only direct the first one but he's supposed to be writting all three. So he'll have other directors come on to do 2 and 3
Expect she did. She made it clear she had a plan, she just wasn't going to share the details outside of he higher level command. Which is...how this stuff tends to always work. Poe's not part of the command. It's not his place to be involved in the planning of the mission. She said she had a plan and that should have been good enough for him.
Poe:
- Disobeys a direct order gets half the wing killed in an insane do-or-die mission that costs them all their bombers
- Disobeys another order to quit trying to subvert his superior's orders and sends another group on a do-or-die mission with the flimsiest of evidence
- Blatantly talks against his superiors with no basis in any reality
- Loudly complains about superiors orders within anyone in range, including random strangers.
- Starts a mutiny
Some of y'all: Why doesn't Holdo just tell Poe everything?
- Disobeys a direct order gets half the wing killed in an insane do-or-die mission that costs them all their bombers
- Disobeys another order to quit trying to subvert his superior's orders and sends another group on a do-or-die mission with the flimsiest of evidence
- Blatantly talks against his superiors with no basis in any reality
- Loudly complains about superiors orders within anyone in range, including random strangers.
- Starts a mutiny
Some of y'all: Why doesn't Holdo just tell Poe everything?
Yeah! Lanky Kong is the best Jedi there is!
And deny exposing the greatness that was Lanky Kong, Jedi Master extraordinaire?
Rey walks into a dark cave... grows darker with each step.
"Who am I?"
Grey lightsabre ignites.
"I've been waiting for you... daughter"
Lightsabre is pulled closer and we get a grand reveal of Lanky Kong's face.
"How are we going to SURVIVE THE NEXT FEW HOURS?!"
"I'm sorry, that's NEED TO KNOW information."
Again, this "military" is a few dozen people strong. They are one stray shot away from giving the guy who cleans the toilets the position of admiral because they're hemorrhaging support and leadership like flies.
This is NOT a well-run military organization of trained, veteran soldiers. Most of the recruits are civilians with almost no military training at all. This is a TERRIBLE time to try and teach troops to unquestionably follow apparently-hopeless orders because "that's how a military works".
I'm... not sure where this is going. And that's kind of making me cringe.
If Poe was included in the mission parameters, yes, nobody would've been spread out to endanger the mission with someone outside of their core group.
Others joined in the mutiny, and there are many other reasons no one else may have thrown a fit - such as being intimidated by Holdo for dressing down one of their most famous heroes, to having already been given the mission plans so they had no reason to, to being low-ranking enough to feel their opinions didn't matter, to being resigned to death already, etc.
Or, more sensible, nobody else threw a fit because nobody else in the scene was considered a MAIN CHARACTER. Poe is the audience surrogate at that point, not Holdo. He's voicing the concerns we, the audience, should be having. We expect HIM to be the voice of protest - and also the hero who rebels when it's hardest to save the people who loves no matter the cost.
It's insulting to assume he doesn't have those qualities given he's literally been tortured to near-death for the sake of the Resistance and is 100% the reason they're even still able to keep fighting. We, the audience, know of Poe's qualifications - which is why the audience trusts him. We are not given Holdo's qualifications through action, and the only things we are shown paint her inaction as something Poe should circumvent. It's not for Poe's sake that she withholds essential information because he's insubordinate or reckless - we have COUNTLESS Star Wars heroes with those qualities. It's because the story is trying to trick the audience, and that just doesn't work if artificial conflict isn't created to mislead the audience.
Also, everyone keeps bringing up "this is how standard operating procedure works" when, again, most of the Resistance at this point are NOT veteran military personnel and, AGAIN, the group has shrunk to a fraction of a fraction of its starting size and more keep dropping like flies, which doesn't inspire confidence. This isn't a well-regulated military. These are volunteers, farm boys, defectors, and idealists with very little training composing a makeshift group of misfits.
I don't think "blindly follow standard operating procedure" is even a healthy lesson to learn, given that rebelling against blindly following orders is something Finn learned in the prior movie, as well as something deconstructed in Rogue One. "Be part of the military machine" and don't question, don't disobey, don't follow your instincts... those run opposite of many lessons Star Wars heroes learn.
Heck, even in THIS FILM, you have Captain Phasma raving about how Finn a "bug in the system" of their military order, whose rebellion against their order and rules disgusted her. But I guess questioning authority and following your heart only works if you're part of the First Order...
I haven't brought up her gender once. I'd have the same criticisms if she was played by a man.
In fact, I've done that too....
Rey: Are you really him?
Lanky: *Does a handstand*
Rey: *Tears well up* It's true
As far as Poe-Holdo situation goes, TLJ kind of engineered a situation where the characters are making believable mistakes. Holdo is 100% within justifiable reasoning to withhold information from holdo basically because of....
...all that.
And if Poe was some nameless extra, nobody would be questioning it. Well, they probably would, because sexism means a female boss can't ever be actually rude without it being viewed as hyper negative as opposed to a male boss that would just be enforcing his authority, but other than that, it'd be normal procedure.
But....we know Poe is not just on the up and up, he's the savior of whatever is going on here. We know this because this is a movie. Not just a movie, a star wars movie. If we're following around somebody, that makes them the protagonist, which means they are usually going to be the ones to save the day. But that's not something you can blame Holdo for because how is she supposed to know she's a fictional side character talking to a protagonist? To her, Poe is just another hotshot pilot out of dozens, possibly hundreds. Of course she doesn't owe him shit. But she can't know that he is the only one endowed with the one power that's greater than even the Force - the Narrative. So it's just this awkward situation where she is acting perfectly reasonably, except we know this is the one person that she shouldn't be acting like this to.
It's like the inverse of dramatic irony. Like how in Jaws we know the shark is coming because we hear the Jaws theme playing, but characters in the movie have no idea because they don't have any indications that there is a shark coming. That's used to create tension in the scene. Here, it's just creating a rift between what how we know the characters as characters vs how the characters know themselves as people.
...all that.
And if Poe was some nameless extra, nobody would be questioning it. Well, they probably would, because sexism means a female boss can't ever be actually rude without it being viewed as hyper negative as opposed to a male boss that would just be enforcing his authority, but other than that, it'd be normal procedure.
But....we know Poe is not just on the up and up, he's the savior of whatever is going on here. We know this because this is a movie. Not just a movie, a star wars movie. If we're following around somebody, that makes them the protagonist, which means they are usually going to be the ones to save the day. But that's not something you can blame Holdo for because how is she supposed to know she's a fictional side character talking to a protagonist? To her, Poe is just another hotshot pilot out of dozens, possibly hundreds. Of course she doesn't owe him shit. But she can't know that he is the only one endowed with the one power that's greater than even the Force - the Narrative. So it's just this awkward situation where she is acting perfectly reasonably, except we know this is the one person that she shouldn't be acting like this to.
It's like the inverse of dramatic irony. Like how in Jaws we know the shark is coming because we hear the Jaws theme playing, but characters in the movie have no idea because they don't have any indications that there is a shark coming. That's used to create tension in the scene. Here, it's just creating a rift between what how we know the characters as characters vs how the characters know themselves as people.
It's kinda funny how much shit he gets aways with. Poe is basically an asshole through the whole movie, but Holdo says "I like him" and then he follows the snow foxes out the back of the cave so I guess he is the leader now?
Wait, I got it... we see a walking stick... and the small stature of Lanky coming from the shadows. The crowd is thinking, wait, is this Yoda?!! Lanky drops the walking stick and does a handstand.
Literally the description once the Battle of Crait began and ended.
Yep. That's it.
She could have at least told poe there was a plan, even if she couldn't tell him the details.
They could even spice it up, something like "Hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you can see it, you'll never make it through the night."
Yeah that would have helped.
but thats it after poe killed most of the resistance,
i dont remember if it darcy or holdo who states the numbers of the resistance after escaping d'qar but it is no where near on the "dozens of people"
Leia said so because otherwise we'd be scratching our heads wondering why Finn and Poe even exist in this trilogy if they don't have any meaningful parts to play in it.
So, at the end of the movie? As in, after the FO shot down all the ships that would have gotten away had Poe not done his secret mission?
i'm not particularly the biggest fan of the battlestar galactica-esque battle of attrition between the first order and the few remaining resistance ships, as some elements are a bit too contrived for me, but they do make logical sense regarding holdo and poe. you can not like something and still admit that it makes sense. it just wasn't for you. it makes sense that a superior officer doesn't tell a lower ranking officer (that had just been demoted) something of extreme urgency and secrecy. i don't particularly like it because of the twists and turns it takes that aspect of the story but it checks out.
Calling Kathleen Kennedy right now, this idea will make us the new heads of the Star Wars/Donkey Kong Cinematic Universe!
I think the intention, at least, is that him realizing that he was being a rash doofus and Holdo was actually right to treat him as such will have tempered him into a better leader for the future.
Failure is the best teacher, after all. I think Diddy Kong said that.
It'll be a backdoor pilot for us to create a Donkey Kong animated show for Disney Plus.
People complaining that she she should have at least said she had a plan make me wonder if any of them actually have watched the movie.
Wait hold up, why are you assuming they aren't a military force and are made up of civilians? They are a specialized, organized, and experienced paramilitary force put together by Leia made up of troopers, pilots, medics, and spies recruited from the Republic Army and areas most impacted by the former Empire and headed by veterans of the Rebellion specifically to combat the threat of the First Order.
nah man, Rose its just a farmer who happens to know a lot of things about technology and shit
You're right. It's just funny to see it happen so fast, but they don't have the time a TV show or comic would provide.