Riot Games made two events @ PAX West exclusive to women and non-binary folks. Chaos ensues.

[Deleted member 5853]

I stumbled upon this while browsing reddit.

In case you forgot, Riot Games, makers of League of Legends, recently weathered a massive scandal wherein female employees discussed the bro gamer culture at Riot and the sexism that impeded said women's careers. In an attempt to earn back some goodwill, it appears that they chose to tailor some events specifically for women & non-binary folks who wanted to get into game development:

Right next door in Room 613 we're hosting a variety of sessions to support women and non-binary folks who are interested in getting into games professionally. Stop by to learn from and get to know some of the badass women of Riot! Tentative schedule below, but all subject to change—stop by the room Friday-Monday for a daily schedule.

• 10 AM-12 PM: 1-on-1 resume review & feedback
  
  
• 12-3 PM: Presentations including:
  
  • Art + Champions/Skins Design
    
    
  • How to be a Producer
    
    
  • Narrative Writing
    
    
  • Production Careers
    
    
  • Game Design
    
    
  • Advanced Cosplay
• 3-4:30 PM: Meditation / quiet space hour (except Sunday)
  
  
• 4:30-6 PM: "Ask a Rito" (Stop by and chat with a Rioter)

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Specifically, the events from 10 AM - 3 PM would only be for those two groups. Reddit being reddit, the LoL subreddit responded in its own unique ways. A selection of responses follows:

• I am a woman (who has been active in the toxic culture threads) and I am just sitting here going......what....the.....fuck? who ok'd this????? riot, this isnt how you do things. you have a session titled lbgt/women in gaming paneled by women, lgbt and your most senior people at the event and make it available to everyone. what if someone's sister or shy girlfriend cant make it to pax so they have a dude attend for them and take notes? just....christ guys (riot) stop just fucking stop.
• Imagine being a woman who worked your ass off to create an incredible cosplay that you wanted everyone, as many people as possible to be able to appreciate in-person. Then you find out Riot banned your event from being seen by all men. To be progressive
• No, the worst part is that one of the biggest developers in the games industry just took an official stance in support of prejudice
• How do they confirm who's non-binary? What's stopping me from walking in and saying I am?
• (in response to the one above)
  They will call in the penis inspection day nurse from your elementary school.

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Now, one Daniel Klein, whose Twitter bio describes him as "Systems Designer at Riot Games, also virtue-signalling door mat. Life is good. Tweets are my own. He/him", chose to respond to the bullshit.

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Reddit obviously chose to respond to this in a polite understanding way: Daniel Z Klein is calling the league community here "manbabies" for discussing the issue at PAX

• Remember that the mods also found a bullshit reason to remove the initial article about Riot's sexism. The mods have now protected Riot from both their sexism against women and their sexism against men, really high quality team we got here.
• Yeah it's absurd. "Violently angry" where??? I was also discussing with another dude why excluding people from spaces does little to solve sexism and he started rambling about "white male can't stand anything taken from them": wtf nobody was talking about racism?
• It's pretty racist on his part.
  
  He is not seeing or acknowledging anyone else besides white men. People who pull that card only show the world how racist they themselves are.
  
  Especially when no one even mentioned race.
• you know what I find terrifying? A top riot employee is calling a large portion of the community "terrifying" and is speaking on behalf of women/nonbinary people despite being a white male himself. how delusional and self-centered is this guy. he claims losing attendance to PAX panels is a "small thing" which again assumes everyone shares the same priorities as him. what a dreadful human being.

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The previous thread was locked for being inflammatory in its titling, so hopefully this should be better. I think that Klein is right and the fact that people are in omnishambles about this proves his point about manbabies.

 

[Water]

Sounds reallyyy dumb of riot and If I'm understanding this right, and guys who paid for the same event can't go to some of the shows? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Personally I'd be pretty mad.

Like this is the reason they go to this stuff, and there was no heads up about this until way later. Some people travel very far and spend a lot of money to watch some of these events live.

I'm all about giving women a safe space, but if I signed up for an event, was going to travel far and possibly spend a lot of money to watch people talk, and found out later that there's a few talks that were only for women / non-binary but covered topics I was something I was really interested in, and going to the event in hopes to see, I would be upset.

Just to hammer this in, I'm hopefully going to a summit later this month. I can't wait to go and watch people talk about different topics, and one of the topics I'm excited to hear experts talk about is anatomy. If the company was involved in a scandal, and their response was to close the talk about anatomy off to men I would be livid.

Overall this seems very reactive and phoned in. Do women and non-binary folks want this? Maybe they should be working with them them to develop something from the ground up rather than this very artificial method.

 

[ggdeku]

Loser idiots on Reddit get mad.

Ok? What else is new lmao.

 

[Deleted member 8852]

That just makes me laugh, given Riot's godawful track-record of how they treat women and lgbt folk.

With that in mind, David Klein's twitter thread feels like projection.

 

[Deleted member 1589]

This is all so absurd that Im still trying to process most of it.

 

[artemis]

See them making men only events next, to balance it.

 

[aiswyda]

Sounds reallyyy dumb of riot and If I'm understanding this right, and guys who paid for the same event can't go to some of the shows? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Personally I'd be pretty mad.

Like this is the reason they go to this stuff, and there was no head up about this until way later. Some people travel very far and spend a lot of money to watch some of these events live.

I'm all about giving women a safe space, but if I signed up for an event, was going to travel far and possibly spend a lot of money to watch people talk, and found out later that there's a few talks that were only for women / non-binary but covered topics I was something I was really interested in, I would be upset.

Just to hammer this in, I'm hopefully going to a summit later this month. I can't wait to go and watch people talk about different topics, and one of the topics I'm excited to hear experts talk about is anatomy. If I later learned the talk about anatomy was closed off to men I would be livid. This is any different, or am I not understanding something properly here?

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Here's the thing--nerdy (for lack of a better term?) conventions are inherently not safe spaces for women/people presenting as feminine. I fit within that category and have been attending nerdy conventions for over ten years, and never within those ten years have I felt safe within that space unless I am with multiple people I trust, especially during panels. I cannot tell you the amount of times I had to stop grown ass men from ogling or groping my girl friends who were cosplaying (or like..not! sometimes just wearing normal ass clothes), who, for a decent chunk of those years, were children. I have been pushed around and grabbed and spoken over at panels, to the point where I simply don't attend them because of my experiences.

Game development is also a pretty unsafe space for women/non-binary folx. Look to gamergate and many other instances, including the recent riot controversy that sparked this. Men don't seem to have an issue with harassing women and non-binary folx for being interested in what they consider to be "their space".

So if a gaming company wants to put on a series of panels about getting into the game dev industry that are actually beneficial to women and represent a safe space for them, do you think it's wise to have men, who have continuously disrespected and harassed and sexualized these people, within that same space?

 

[GitarooMan]

I don't see the issue and people who think it's sexist are naive and missing the point entirely but that's par for the course for a certain subset of gamers.

 

[KillLaCam]

That is kinda strange. I don't understand why people would be mad about it though

 

[-JD-]

It's not surprising. These kind of exclusive events draw a lot of ire even when completely removed from a scandal such as Riot's. I mean, just take a look back at how certain people responded to a theater hosting women-only screenings of Wonder Woman.

 

[tmarg]

Uh oh, someone's being rude to customers on twitter.

Good thing they're a white dude.

 

[Water]

Here's the thing--nerdy (for lack of a better term?) conventions are inherently not safe spaces for women/people presenting as feminine. I fit within that category and have been attending nerdy conventions for over ten years, and never within those ten years have I felt safe within that space unless I am with multiple people I trust, especially during panels. I cannot tell you the amount of times I had to stop grown ass men from ogling or groping my girl friends who were cosplaying (or like..not! sometimes just wearing normal ass clothes), who, for a decent chunk of those years, were children. I have been pushed around and grabbed and spoken over at panels, to the point where I simply don't attend them because of my experiences.

Game development is also a pretty unsafe space for women/non-binary folx. Look to gamergate and many other instances, including the recent riot controversy that sparked this. Men don't seem to have an issue with harassing women and non-binary folx for being interested in what they consider to be "their space".

So if a gaming company wants to put on a series of panels about getting into the game dev industry that are actually beneficial to women and represent a safe space for them, do you think it's wise to have men, who have continuously disrespected and harassed and sexualized these people, within that same space?

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First of all, I'm sorry you, your friends and any women has to deal with that.

My frustration is focused around the idea that these event seem like they were aimed at everyone, look like popular topics that a lot of people would be interested in, possibly travel just to see, and then due to the controversy just closed off as a reaction. As a women, is this what you want? There is a huge issue with women / non-binary people feeling safe, but do you think this was the right call?

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

See them making men only events next, to balance it.

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Ah Gender Segregation, reminds me of my childhood schooling days.

 

[aiswyda]

First of all, I'm sorry you, your friends and any women has to deal with that.

My frustration is focused around the idea that these event seem like they were aimed at everyone, look like popular topics that a lot of people would be interested in, possibly travel just to see, and then due to the controversy just closed off as a reaction. As a women, is this what you want? There is a huge issue with women / non-binary people feeling safe, but do you think this was the right call?

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Sorry, do you have an article/information saying they were edited after the fact to apply to women? The OP mentions "tailored towards" so I assumed that when the PAX schedule was released, it was released as saying these were women/non-binary folx events only as they are about women in the game dev industry, but I realize I don't know that for sure. I don't mean this as a way to doubt you just me realizing I don't actually know a sort of relevant fact.

Regardless--what happened is literally what happens non-officially to women all the time. That frustration is something women experience all the time. I suppose if it was changed after it was published it would have been nicer to have that done ahead of time, but I don't see an issue in making sure a panel dedicated to women in game development feels safe for women by asking men not to attend. I think it's the right thing to do here.

Edit: From what I've seen, someone posted the events on twitter at like 9:27 am on August 31st, and then at 9:28 am on the same day, they followed up with "events from this time to this time are for women/non binary people only." By this date PAX tickets were long sold out, and it seems like the afterthought was more due to twitter character restrictions. No one would be traveling just to see this under these circumstances, unless there was previous information released!

A bit more research--a few days before riot posted info on their website about PAX. Although it doesn't explicitly state they're asking for men not to attend, it does explicitly state these events are aimed at "support[ing] women and non-binary folks who are interested in getting into games professionally." Men obviously aren't the focus so I don't think it's wrong for them to clarify they'd like to not have men within this space.

 

[Maneil99]

Seems like fake over compensation for the previous PR. Like when a racist gets called out so he hangs out with his black friends for the next week

 

[BBboy20]

I thought chaos at PAX itself...unless shit went down there too.

 

[Pyro]

Riot still f***ing it up lol

 

[nillansan]

Daniel Klein is absolutely right and all the pathetic whining in response to it is so predictable. Fucking capital G gamers.

 

[pronk]

Seems like people are assuming that these sessions were advertised for everyone and then suddenly changed to be women/non-binary only. It sounds to me more like the 'people paid for PAX and now are told they can't go to an event they wanted' argument is actually 'people are mad that they can't attend all of the events Riot are doing at PAX because they are men'. How do you know these weren't added at the last minute specifically for women??

 

[somerandomweirdguy]

I mean, it's definitely Riot attempting overcompensating and attempting to save face after their recent exposure, but these people having shit attacks over it are a million times worse. It's so obvious that these people are almost completely arguing in bad faith. "You can't fight sexism with sexism" and that type of bullshit.

People like them are the reason why I don't call myself a gamer. I'd hate to be lumped in with people that cry "SJWs!" at every little thing.

 

[Tirisfal]

That riot employee says it's okay to be sexist sometimes and discriminate based on sex as long as it's the white Male that gets excluded, if I'm reading his tweets correctly. Because of privilege. So what about minority non-white males like myself?

 

[Marukoban]

Only in nerdy subculture do you see people complaining about ladies only event.
I've yet to see anyone complain about ladies night at local bar or ladies parking.
And as DZK said, events like PAX is already pretty much dominated by male.
There is nothing wrong with providing space and time for the non-male.

 

[aiswyda]

That riot employee says it's okay to be sexist sometimes and discriminate based on sex as long as it's the white Male that gets excluded, if I'm reading his tweets correctly. Because of privilege. So what about minority non-white males like myself?

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I think a panel aimed at people of color looking to get into the gaming industry would be a great suggestion to send to them. But it seems irrelevant in this situation where the goal is to create a safe space for women and non binary people to explore career options traditionally shunned from them by men.

 

[GhostTrick]

Only in nerdy subculture do you see people complaining about ladies only event.
I've yet to see anyone complain about ladies night at local bar or ladies parking.
And as DZK said, events like PAX is already pretty much dominated by male.
There is nothing wrong with providing space and time for the non-male.

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I don't think so. I think some people are just so full of themselves that they want EVERYTHING. They want to be able to say any words, to go anywhere and do anything while being okay if other's people rights are restricted.

 

[Luchashaq]

Hard for me to take riot seriously in terms of stuff like this when the same people who talk tough on social media were too cowardly to protect women in their own workplace.

No issue with having talks structured this way, but no dude at Riot who allowed that garbage culture to happen deserves any credit or to be listened to on issues like this.

 

[CartridgeSmasher]

I don't know who invented the term "non-binary", but I got to say it is the weirdest term I've heard. Someone couldn't have created a word more representative or familiar?

 

[ThreepQuest64]

I think it's not an good idea to exclude anyone, who's sincerely interested (and who have paid for it), from an event.

On the other hand, the "sexism against men" argument is bullshit, because if men already feel discriminated against by such an minor event (on a global scale) they really have no idea or cannot imagine how it is to be systematically and methodically discriminated against over centuries in many different cultures in almost any aspect of life. These are completely different things and the Reddit outrage is so preposterous, and seems to be just another convenient occasion to be 'outraged', because it seems it is exactly what many people really like to be.

 

[boris_feinbrand]

Is it still true that certain talks are exclusive to one time slot? If so, people should get their money back.

 

[Tirisfal]

I think a panel aimed at people of color looking to get into the gaming industry would be a great suggestion to send to them. But it seems irrelevant in this situation where the goal is to create a safe space for women and non binary people to explore career options traditionally shunned from them by men.

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I don't think it's irrelevant at all. If it's to do with privilege like that riot employee said, then why would I, as a minority, be turned away at the door?

 

[aiswyda]

I don't know who invented the term "non-binary", but I got to say it is the weirdest term I've heard. Someone couldn't have created a word more representative or familiar?

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non-binary literally means someone who doesn't identify either with the gender binary or either gender considered in that binary (man/woman). it's a fairly representative word that uses a term associated with traditional concepts of gender to distinguish itself from that. try to think of a better non clunky way to express that

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

Frankly, I find those responses from "women" to be fucking horseshit. Reddit continues to top themselves in the race for providing the most embarrassment to those that share the gaming hobby. From the CoD women historical accuracy debacle, puddlegate, and now this? Fuck off.

Glad they're doing the women only event. Yeah, maybe they're overcompensating but so what. Would you rather they do nothing?

 

[.exe]

The response is unsurprising. The League community, probably due to sheer size, has a lot of unpleasant folks.

Daniel Klein explained it well, I think. But of course people will choose to disregard it.

Whatever their intentions, good on Riot for trying to compensate. Unfortunately, the public outcry/whining only seems to underline why many women do not feel welcome in tech.

 

[Boy Wander]

I mean, it's definitely Riot attempting overcompensating and attempting to save face after their recent exposure, but these people having shit attacks over it are a million times worse. It's so obvious that these people are almost completely arguing in bad faith. "You can't fight sexism with sexism" and that type of bullshit.

People like them are the reason why I don't call myself a gamer. I'd hate to be lumped in with people that cry "SJWs!" at every little thing.

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Problem with the internet is that it's difficult to discern genuine concern from shit stirring. I'm sure there are people who have genuine concerns and also people who just want this to blow up some more.

 

[aiswyda]

I don't think it's irrelevant at all. If it's to do with privilege like that riot employee said, then why would I, as a minority, be turned away at the door?

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Because it's *not* an event based on generic concept privilege, it's specifically about serving women and non-binary individuals within the industry. His discussion regarding privilege was in response to men being mad for being excluded and how you can't be sexist against men due to privilege and power dynamics.

 

[Acidote]

If you're really really interested in one of those talks, what stops you from saying you're non binary and just go there and listen to that talk without bothering anyone?

 

[boris_feinbrand]

If you're really really interested in one of those talks, what stops you from saying you're non binary and just go there and listen to that talk without bothering anyone?

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Would be the easiest solution really.

 

[Tirisfal]

Because it's *not* an event based on generic concept privilege, it's specifically about serving women and non-binary individuals within the industry. His discussion regarding privilege was in response to men being mad for being excluded and how you can't be sexist against men due to privilege and power dynamics.

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Women and non-binary. So it's for some minorities, just not all of them?

 

[tmarg]

If you're really really interested in one of those talks, what stops you from saying you're non binary and just go there and listen to that talk without bothering anyone?

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Being a decent person who isn't an asshole.

 

[.exe]

Women and non-binary. So it's for some minorities, just not all of them?

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No, it's for women and non-binary folks. Hardly a minority group in the grand scheme of things. They invited women to speak at the event, probably to address issues/questions specific to this group.

 

[Lux86]

If you're really really interested in one of those talks, what stops you from saying you're non binary and just go there and listen to that talk without bothering anyone?

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Well, tbh, i'm white, male and straight, and i would never do that. It would feel wrong and disrespectful. Having said that, i don't agree with the narrative in those tweets but i also think that these events are pretty helpful and need to exist.

 

[somedaythefire]

lol fan man babies.

 

[janoGX]

I think Reddit is acting like absolute garbage. But Daniel is lashing out and letting the worst of him show up.

I believe Riot could have handled this better instead of announcing this with little time of preparation since everyone pays tickets to attend those events and see those panels, had they said weeks in advance that this is happening, people wouldn't be mad or some of their anger would have no justification. But now they gave bullets to the critics who can lash out how they please.

What they did is good to give a space to females and non-binaries, but they handled the communication side, and other aspects of inclusion, like crap.

 

[SK4TE]

Segregated events should be banned from conferences like this.

 

[Tirisfal]

No, it's for women and non-binary folks. Hardly a minority group in the grand scheme of things. They invited women to speak at the event, probably to address issues/questions specific to this group.

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Sorry but what would you classify non-binary as if not a minority group? By definition they are not women, so Riot aren't doing this for women exclusively.

 

[Deleted member 8861]

I believe that society can be sexist against men in some ways but not being able to attend a panel aimed at women/nb folks is NOT one of those ways.

Regardless, I hope they record these panels for posterity so that other people not at PAX (including guys!) can still watch them (after the fact) and learn from them.

I've listened to the rationale behind these sort of events and they still frustrate me at first (as a man), but I think I can understand why they're needed. Guess my frustration's also aimed at the fact that many women (especially in such conventions) apparently don't feel safe in the presence of men at all. It's such a shameful thing

 

[Tygre]

Women only spaces at events like PAX, and industries like gaming, are not only a good idea, they are necessary.

The entire rest of the goddamn convention is a space mostly aimed at men. The vast majority of the industry works from a male perspective, targeting male consumers.

Riot caters for women and non-binary folks for 5hrs in one room and people start acting like they've instigated Reverse Jim Crow 2: Feminist Boogaloo.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

Nazi shits on the internet finding out quickly that no one outside their turd bubble has any quarter for them, not even their hero developers. Fuck outta here.

 

[Jacobson]

ITT: reddit sucks, wahhh

for an organization filled with young people, it's kind of amazing how out of touch Riot can be.

Women only spaces at events like PAX, and industries like gaming, are not only a good idea, they are necessary.

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Making a women-only event after being hit with sexism accusations? are you not really seing the problem here? it's like Riot saying "see, we DO care about women!" with a big shit-eating grin on their faces. the idea wasn't really bad, it just felt insincere.

 

[.exe]

Sorry but what would you classify non-binary as if not a minority group? By definition they are not women, so Riot aren't doing this for women exclusively.

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They seem to communicate fairly clearly that they are addressing women of all kinds and intend to be inclusive by not referring to women in a purely binary or gendered context. This includes people who may be perceived as women by some but who do not identify in this binary spectrum, i.e. are non-binary.

And if this is still somehow not clear, think of it in the context of sub-cultures. In the tech world, women are a quote unquote 'minority', whereas your traditional quote unquote 'minorities' are primarily also men and within this sub-culture part of the majority. This talk is specifically geared towards the issues intrinsic to this sub-culture. To take it out of this context is to miss the point of it entirely. Discrimination is a context specific problem. Different contexts will have different majority/minority groups and different power dynamics.

 

[SK4TE]

Nazi shits on the internet finding out quickly that no one outside their turd bubble has any quarter for them, not even their hero developers. Fuck outta here.

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Nazi gets thrown around a lot on this forum out of context.