Riot Games made two events @ PAX West exclusive to women and non-binary folks. Chaos ensues.

Oct 25, 2017
2,228
So you care what is between a person's legs and that is your focus? This is my issue. People need to stop giving a fuck about male/female/nonbinary. Care about the person. Make a place that is accepting of all, not excluding someone just to make others feel better. If you feel like you need to exclude someone, then maybe you need to explain to that person what the issue is. And, if a situation like this Pax stupidity comes up, you make the information presented at the panel public after the event. Or are you ignoring the fact that the presentation was a general one about game development and not about gender stuff? A presentation that anyone could have benefitted from.That is what the hubbub is about. You don't take a general topic of discussion and turn it into an identity politics thing.
Woosh. "I don't see gender" is useless and part of the whole problem here. The damage is already done (and continues to be done, as all the stuff that's come out about Riot demonstrates). "Not seeing gender" or not giving a fuck about male/female/nonbinary as you put it doesn't magically undo that. As contradictory as it might seem at first, it's partly through stuff like this that the damage can begin to be undone and past/current grievances me addressed and justice start to be done.

Like, read through this entire Twitter thread as it does a better job explaining it that I can:
https://twitter.com/chhopsky/status/1035945025417297921

In particular though, I'd like to highlight this particular section that's really relevant here:


As for the the mere presence of a man being at an event turning some women and nonbinary people off from attending.. Well there is something wrong with those women and no binaries to think that way. The cause of that issue is clearly a greater societal thing, but no one should be afraid of another gender/sex/whatever. People need to just learn to get along and exclusion isn't going to help that.
Something wrong with those women? No, not a single thing in the world is wrong with them. What's wrong is how women are treated by society, largely. How they respond to that is just a defensive measure. There's nothing wrong with them and trying to blame them and how they respond to that as if it's the women themselves that are the problem is a disgusting form of victim blaming that I can't tolerate.

I would highly recommend you read this Washington Post article and the thread we had here based on it. There are many valid reasons women have to be afraid of men based on their lived experiences and just so callously dismissing that out of had and saying "their's something wrong with those women" as if there's a fucking right way to respond to that garbage in the first place and as if it should even be put on them and how they respond to it is at all the problem in any way is disgusting:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-perils-of-being-a-woman-whos-just-asking-to-be-left-alone/2018/08/26/fac644ec-a7b7-11e8-a656-943eefab5daf_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bb9ef2ab469e
https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-perils-of-being-a-woman-who’s-just-asking-to-be-left-alone.65182/

Like, seriously though. Take the time to read that. Really read that.


As for the anology, it is a bad one in this situation. The situation was a game development/design presentation. The topic was not gender exclusive. It was one anyone could have benefitted from.
It is gender exclusive. The whole point is the help women/nonbinary individuals break into the industry. That's something specifically for their benefit and growth. Not to help men break into the industry they already dominate. Specifically to target and help give opportunities to women/nonbinary individuals who would otherwise be passed over or missed or wouldn't feel comfortable applying. To say anyone could benefit from that is just the miss the point on such a fundamental level that's staggering to me.
 
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nillansan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,152
Denmark
At the same time there are people, women even, in this very thread, who are against an exclusive event like this because according to their principles it's not right...which is fine as well.
Oh, you mean that one poster that was pushing her experience as common occurrence despite the fact that evidence disputes this, who then implies that all sexist bullshit was somehow exclusive to the US and that people labelled her a Gamer Gater, when nobody did that? You mean her?

Yet the former group would at times automatically start labelling everyone who is at odds with them, which would also include the latter group, as a gater/pissed off white man. (And admittedly the latter would call the former to be "sexist" because of their support for such an exclusive event). And that is not ok. But both of these groups need to acknowledge the existence of the other, because neither of them are sexists/gaters etc and as such neither would want to be called one. They are two different sides of the same coin and I really find it frustrating when they automatically assume this difference in opinion to be due to them being from a different coin in itself.
What are you getting at here? Is this just a bizarre round-about way of saying both-sides?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,098
Well there is something wrong with those women and no binaries to think that way. The cause of that issue is clearly a greater societal thing, but no one should be afraid of another gender/sex/whatever. People need to just learn to get along and exclusion isn't going to help that.
As a man, this is the sort of genuine stupidity that makes me think women aren't missing out on anything by going to an event that lacks a man's perspective.
 
Well, this thread is certainly an example of the left demographic not being a monolith.

So apparently we've got two prevailing lines of thought going on here:

1. You can't be discriminatory toward one group, then try to make up for it by being discriminatory toward another group to "even things out". You're not getting the point, that's literally "separate but equal" and is part of the mindset that is causing this whole problem in the first place. Essential point - we need to encourage people to be better.

2. Inequity is a step toward equality, and women + minorities occasionally need safe spaces to be able to progress and not have to field the endless line of questioning from men who still intrinsically believe that "equal opportunity" means white men will inevitably be primarily represented because they're just better or something. Essential point - people aren't going to get better, and we need to fight for what's ours.

Let's look at the context here.

What's under the knife is our perception of Riot Games vs. our perception of this panel, which are related but are also able to be inspected separately as well. The gesture that is this panel is both welcome and pragmatically useful, but it doesn't really cleanse their sins to any meaningful degree as this could be nothing but a throwaway PR event for them with lessons that are likely to be forgotten in the near future. Riot Games has been accused by multiple sources of being an incredibly sexist and toxic work environment - and we're not simply talking subtle undertones or what one might think of as run-of-the-mill, unconscious discrimination either. They've been accused of some pretty heinous behavior. When someone is guilty of bigoted actions, what do we typically expect from them as an indication that they've turned a corner and are willing to own up to what they've done? An admission of guilt with a thorough explanation that describes their transgressions and communicates understanding of why they were in the wrong, a reprimanding and disciplining of those who committed these infractions if the offending entity is a group or chain of authority, and possibly some kind of reparative works in support of those on the receiving end. As far as Riot Games themselves are concerned, we're getting the works, but - as far as I'm aware - we're not getting the admission and we're not getting the repercussive actions.

Then there is the panel itself, which sort of touches on one particular dichotomy; do women and minorities need assistance and encouragement in actualizing in their given field, or do they simply need men to stop being roadblocking assholes? On one hand, it's nice to see an event that is - presumably - going to be primarily hosted by women, as that seats women in the position of power in the industry that they've been sorely lacking for a long time. On the other hand, do these demographics really need help with...resume writing? Is that really the issue that's preventing them from getting work in gaming? That seems like a real condescending hand-holding operation, and definitely not one that seems necessary to structure an exclusionary event around. I would proffer that both the desire and the talent for women and minorities to succeed in gaming is already there, but it's being snuffed and ignored respectively because of discriminatory mindsets. What Riot is doing here is being exclusionary for entirely the wrong reasons, because I would proffer that what women and minorities truly want is to be able to sit beside white men at the same generalized industry panels and simply exist in peace. I will not throw stones at Riot for what is ultimately a gesture of fairly good will, but it is misguided and I think alludes to a fundamental misunderstanding of where and with whom the problem lies.

As far as the two points I mentioned initially and passing judgment on this panel as a marker of either opportunity or prejudice, an event that bars men but caters to general interests is discriminatory in nature, full stop. However and for example, we can construct a pretty convincing analogy for this by weighing it against the concept of violence. Violence is an awful thing, yes? And yet, how must we typically respond to violence? Violently, to be sure. Violence has different motivations; I don't know anyone who is willing to sit and be repeatedly beaned in the face because their sense of philosophical equivalency forbids them from committing any violence at all (the "bad" thing). There is a difference between violence out of destructive rage and violence for the sake of self-preservation (oh, I see those lines blurring already). Similarly to the point of "discrimination", why do we have shelters for female victims of domestic violence? While reciprocal domestic violence tends to hover around the 50/50 mark, women are overwhelmingly the recipients of domestic violence that results in serious injury or death. They need a safe space, because sometimes their lives depend on it. Is this issue quite as severe or dramatic? No, and as with all things it's the collective consciousness that decides where within a spectrum we draw the line, but I'm personally inclined to lean toward being in favor of it, simply because I as a while male don't view getting to eat only 80% of the cake instead of 90% to be a very threatening prospect.

Ultimately, with respect to the panel itself I find myself weighing the former against the latter. The conclusion I've come to is...I really don't care that much because this panel isn't that fucking important.
 

CenturionNami

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,889
Yes let's call our entire fanbase manbabies, that really worked out well when Dice did it...

Don't even really care about not letting binary people in for an hour, but when a company attacks there own fanbase like this, fuck them. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
 

Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
It surprises me to see many on Era crying about Riot "excluding" men from this event. We, as men, are fucking privileged in several ways and Riot has been treating women and other groups like shit for a long time now, who cares if you weren't invited to their event as a man? Who gives a shit? If they actually want to start and enact change, then I'm all for it, shit's not gonna happen overnight and the sooner they start, the better. Maybe they want to have a long and sincere conversation with these discriminated groups first, why are you crying that men are being excluded from this? How fucking entitled are you? Holy shit, you guys really disappoint me. "Boo boo booo b-b-but this is not how you d-do things! Why are you excluding men? waaahh waahhh". Pathetic.
Lol, really? Even on Gaming Side? Seems about par the course to me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,098
Yes let's call our entire fanbase manbabies, that really worked out well when Dice did it...

Don't even really care about not letting binary people in for an hour, but when a company attacks there own fanbase like this, fuck them. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
That didn't happen, though, so why are you tripping over yourself to act like it did? Even if you think the whole of LoL's customer base is represented by Reddit, Klein wasn't calling everyone in that thread a manbaby - just the ones whining about this whole thing.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,221
Who said this excuses their poor working conditions? Can you quote the people in this thread that said that?

You said there are women in this thread against this, but I can only count one poster (Jacqui) that said that, not to mention people debunked her opinion on the matter. Where are the other women that are pushing back against this?
I did not say anything about people saying this excuses that behaviour, but it does not have to be explicitly stated for it to be the case? Look at the thread and tell me how many people here actually doubted whether what Riot games is doing feels disingenuous or honest. Instead everyone is arguing about whether an exclusive event is right or wrong. It matters because it's not right if a dishonest effort ends up overshadowing their prior issues.

Oh, you mean that one poster that was pushing her experience as common occurrence despite the fact that evidence disputes this, who then implies that all sexist bullshit was somehow exclusive to the US and that people labelled her a Gamer Gater, when nobody did that? You mean her?



What are you getting at here? Is this just a bizarre round-about way of saying both-sides?
Man if you think it's me saying both sides then I don't think you understood a word of what I said, and if you cannot what see that there is always a division in terms of how equality is to be achieved with the group that fights for equality then I do not know what else to say other than read my post again. I wanted to avoid being too specific but I will now. This might be and likely is anecdotal, but I from my time involved in activism I have seen enough to know that there is infighting within the same groups due to differences in principles. For instance, you could have two people arguing for feminism but one of them fights for feminism with intersectionality while the other doesn't. Both want equal rights for women and neither are the "other side" (i.e. the side that opposes feminism), as such there is no "both sides" argument to be made here, but it is also true that they both view equality and how to achieve equality differently. One would claim there is "no feminism without intesectionality" (that's an actual quote I once heard from the president of the feminist society from my former university), while the other will claim that intersectionality is not as important and feminism is about taking every chance to take down our patriarchal society, even if it means seclusion/exclusivity at the expense of others who are also marginalised but not women.

Both of these sub groups believe that they are correct and the other isn't and in a way they are both right...but at the same time they aren't totally right. It's a very complex thing to explain because this isn't a straightforward issue. But the thing to remember is that ultimately they are both fighting for the same cause i.e. feminism. So at the very least they should atleast acknowledge the other rather than automatically assuming that anyone who does not confirm to their idea is from the "other side"....which is something that I have seen in this thread (even if there are indeed people from the "other side" in here who rightfully deserve to be called out).
 
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Deleted member 1041

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
10,725
I dont think this is a dishonest effort on their part. Many of them arent treating it as a dishonest effort.

The fact is time will tell if it is a dishonest effort. But between this, the steps they said they were taking, its a bit disingenuous to think its a dishonest effort, unless they were lying. Which I doubt they are right now.
 

Sub Boss

Member
Nov 14, 2017
12,304
User banned (1 week): inflammatory drive-by, a history of similar infractions
Its a trap, i wouldn't trust Riot games if i was a woman
 

Vicious17

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,293
I like how the idea is to not discriminate by... discriminating.

Like, don't get me wrong, I'm fine with this. It's just a really weird way to go about saving face for Riot imo.
 

Alucrid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,583
I can't tell if people who think this will make people forget their past are concern trolling or goldfish
 

Vicious17

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,293
User Banned (2 Weeks): Transphobia.
Question.

I apologize if I come off as offensive for this, but this is a genuine question. What are the rules for claiming you're "non binary"? Like, if I tell them I identify as a helicopter, would they just let me in? Or what?

But theyre not discriminating.
Not letting in men, is still technically discriminating, is it not? I understand that it's not/shouldn't be a big deal for us (men), and it isn't but you're still leaving out a group of people.
 

Klois

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,051
Question.

I apologize if I come off as offensive for this, but this is a genuine question. What are the rules for claiming you're "non binary"? Like, if I tell them I identify as a helicopter, would they just let me in? Or what?
......................................................................................
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,809
I dont think this is a dishonest effort on their part. Many of them arent treating it as a dishonest effort.

The fact is time will tell if it is a dishonest effort. But between this, the steps they said they were taking, its a bit disingenuous to think its a dishonest effort, unless they were lying. Which I doubt they are right now.
And the thing is, even if they are disingenuous, or it’s a thing that was hastily put together, it’s... not bad? Like even if they did a good thing for a selfish reason, the thing itself isn’t bad. Maybe don’t praise them too highly for it, sure, but it doesn’t mean they were wrong to hold these events.

...after they wasted their money on tickets
Tickets that sell out immediately, before panels are even announced.
 

Falconbox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,600
Buffalo, NY
Man, Riot Games is really messing up.

Toxic company internally, toxic community and fanbase, now they're trying to jerk the steering wheel in the other direction, overcorrecting and tipping the tractor trailer over on the highway, fanning the flames of the bro community they inadvertantly helped build.
 

Siege

Member
Jan 31, 2018
19
Haha, I hope that's ironic, but based on other B^U stuff I've seen that's probably not the case.

But yeah, I've never wanted to call myself a gamer because I either think of this edgy shit, or the typical fratboy type. Ever since Halo came out Gamer "culture" just kind of infuriates me.

On the topic at hand: I think it's fine to do an event like this. But I think it's concerning that they apparently had 400 signups. Anyone who was upset by the recent articles about Riots work culture: Stop playing their game. Stop supporting them at events. Shame them until they do something about it. Maybe they'll burn down entirely, fire all the children that work there, and become a professional company. (One can dream at least). Just my two cents though, don't want to guilt anyone that enjoys the game itself. Was never a LoL player to begin with so my boycott won't do anything, but I'll keep shittalking them.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,809
I was using that as an example. So, what are the "rules" then? Like, obviously men identifying as a woman and vice versa is one thing, and perfectly normal imo, but what about identifyig as animals, or objects?
You can fuck off wirh this concern trolling, thanks.

It doesn’t even make anything close to sense given that they specifically mentioned women and enbies anyway, not otherkin or anything like you’re tying to associate with this.
 

benzopil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,322
This may come as a huge shock to you but there are actually some other events and games and things at the Penny Arcade Exposition and probably a handful of them are open to men
I have another huge shock, there are people who are only interested in one particular game. Like people who are visiting Blizzcon to buy Hearthstone merch and visit Hearthstone panels or whatever
 

Heisenberg726

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,053
This may come as a huge shock to you but there are actually some other events and games and things at the Penny Arcade Exposition and probably a handful of them are open to men
This may come as a huge shock to you, but there are actually people who go to conventions like this to just see panels of a single game
 

Tharp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,265
I was using that as an example. So, what are the "rules" then? Like, obviously men identifying as a woman and vice versa is one thing, and perfectly normal imo, but what about identifyig as animals, or objects?
I mean I doubt they ask you to go into specifics, you would just say "i'm non-binary" if they even asked in the first place.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,809
I have another huge shock, there are people how are only interested in one particular game. Like people who are visiting Blizzcon to buy Hearthstone merch and visit Hearthstone panels or whatever
But when they bought their tickets they had no idea whether or not these panels would be happening, so it’d be a pretty fucking foolish idea to buy tickets for an event just cause there might be a Riot panel there.

EDIT:
This may come as a huge shock to you, but there are actually people who go to conventions like this to just see panels of a single game
See above.
 

benzopil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,322
But when they bought their tickets they had no idea whether or not these panels would be happening, so it’d be a pretty fucking foolish idea to buy tickets for an event just cause there might be a Riot panel there.
Well they had panels during PAX East, kinda makes sense that they will continue with PAX West. Maybe i'm wrong
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,787
This may come as a huge shock to you, but there are actually people who go to conventions like this to just see panels of a single game
They came to see an event that was for getting women into gaming? More specifically, a 1 on 1 resume building personal help desk for women trying to get into gaming? Are you serious right now? And even if you are talking about the other meetings, it's PAX, there's going to be like dozens of other panels even on the same topic for them. Why is not having 100% of them such a big deal?
 
OP
OP
torre_avenue

torre_avenue

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,168
Behind you.
Will someone please think of the men who are going to be taking notes for women, who will give female cosplayers meaning to their sad lives, who will be fighting for equality despite the evil feminism discriminating against them?

Gamers rise up!
 

BlacJack

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,021
See them making men only events next, to balance it.
As silly as this would be, all this division we are making between races/sex/gender is only making the idiots dig down deeper and draw those lines in the sand. I can see it happening someday in the future.

We are trying to work toward peace and unity but somehow can't do it without attempting to make some grand gesture, which ends up working against the original goal.

These issues are getting worse in our country in the past years, not better. People need to stop and realize that. Maybe rethink the methods in which we are going about all of this.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,809
Well they had panels during PAX East, kinda makes sense that they will continue with PAX West. Maybe i'm wrong
They had 2 panels at East this year, neither of which have anything to do with the job related topics covered here- one was about playing competitively and one was about recent design changes to an old character.

So that’d be a very weird expectation.
 

Dr Wily

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,112
I have another huge shock, there are people who are only interested in one particular game. Like people who are visiting Blizzcon to buy Hearthstone merch and visit Hearthstone panels or whatever
This may come as a huge shock to you, but there are actually people who go to conventions like this to just see panels of a single game
There were two panels.
There was one for ~3 hours that was put on specifically by female Riot employees specifically for the purpose of encouraging womena nd non binary people to work at Riot.
Given recent allegations, its not hard to imagine much of that was "its not what you've heard".

There was a secondary panel that was a free for all welcome to everyone.
There was also presumably the actual show floor for 'just fans' to meet employees, because these panels were not on the show floor and were next to the cosplay repair room.

So if you're thinking "Wow, thats pretty fucking petty to complain about not being able to go to a panel made specifically for not me for 3 hours at a busy expo with a fuckton of other things to do", congrats.
 

nillansan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,152
Denmark
Man if you think it's me saying both sides then I don't think you understood a word of what I said.
I didn't, I interpreted it that way when you mentioned a poster that made the same, tired dismissive arguments that are often seen in threads covering racism and framed her as one side of the same coin, it made me question your intentions. While I don't fully agree with the points you're making, I appreciate that you took the time to explain your post. I don't really see many examples of what you're arguing in this particular thread however. Also, while I fully acknowledge that infighting does exist (I am guilty of this myself), as a person of colour, I firmly believe that colour-blindness and refraining from applying concepts like intersectionality to activism surrounding equality is very harmful and ultimately self-defeating, but I guess that's a discussion for another time.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,422
Let's see, we have:
  • Misrepresenting safe spaces as "discrimination" thus being, wilfully or not, ignorant of the concept of institutionalised bigotry and the need for marginalised groups to have spaces where they are not forced to interact with their oppressors
  • Crying because wahhhh how dare ONE THING on the entirety of planet earth which has catered to me for literally all of history NOT BE ABOUT MEEEEE
  • Transphobic 4chan memes
  • "I don't see gender"
  • 1 woman swooping in to declare that since she, one single person, has not experienced sexism, it doesn't exist and thus women who want safe spaces are snowflakes
  • "This is why misogyny exists"
How many do I need to get a bingo?
 

Heisenberg726

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,053
They came to see an event that was for getting women into gaming? More specifically, a 1 on 1 resume building personal help desk for women trying to get into gaming? Are you serious right now? And even if you are talking about the other meetings, it's PAX, there's going to be like dozens of other panels even on the same topic for them. Why is not having 100% of them such a big deal?
  • 12-3 PM: Presentations including:
    • Art + Champions/Skins Design

    • How to be a Producer

    • Narrative Writing

    • Production Careers

    • Game Design

    • Advanced Cosplay
These are all the presentations that men were banned from seeing. But yes, no man would want to watch a panel on the design of their favorite game or how the writing in it is done. No one.
 

Ponn

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,169
Imagine a world where Gamers put 1/10th the energy of being outraged that a couple panels at a huge convention were catered to LGBT and women into actually being outraged and taking steps against the racism, bigotry and misogyny in the Gamer community.

Riot have a couple hours devoted to focus on women trying to break into an industry that consistently harasses and treats them unfairly?

Gamer community: “That’s unfair and prejudice!”

Ninja excluding women from his streams?:

Gamer community “You know, whatever he can do what he wants.”
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,809
  • 12-3 PM: Presentations including:
    • Art + Champions/Skins Design

    • How to be a Producer

    • Narrative Writing

    • Production Careers

    • Game Design

    • Advanced Cosplay
These are all the presentations that men were banned from seeing. But yes, no man would want to watch a panel on the design of their favorite game or how the writing in it is done. No one.
Do you understand that tickets to this event sold out months before any panels there were announced?
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,123
Let's see, we have:
  • Misrepresenting safe spaces as "discrimination" thus being, wilfully or not, ignorant of the concept of institutionalised bigotry and the need for marginalised groups to have spaces where they are not forced to interact with their oppressors
  • Crying because wahhhh how dare ONE THING on the entirety of planet earth which has catered to me for literally all of history NOT BE ABOUT MEEEEE
  • Transphobic 4chan memes
  • "I don't see gender"
  • 1 woman swooping in to declare that since she, one single person, has not experienced sexism, it doesn't exist and thus women who want safe spaces are snowflakes
  • "This is why misogyny exists"
How many do I need to get a bingo?
You're still missing the "my wife/girlfriend doesn't care about safe spaces" one. Just one short :P
 

The Kree

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,304
As silly as this would be, all this division we are making between races/sex/gender is only making the idiots dig down deeper and draw those lines in the sand. I can see it happening someday in the future.

We are trying to work toward peace and unity but somehow can't do it without attempting to make some grand gesture, which ends up working against the original goal.

These issues are getting worse in our country in the past years, not better. People need to stop and realize that. Maybe rethink the methods in which we are going about all of this.
Being excluded from five hours worth of panels at a convention doesn't compare to centuries long historic oppression. Anybody whining about this is lacking the proper perspective and the people making a forward thinking gesture towards women and LGBT people are doing nothing wrong. If things get worse, it'll be the fault of the people opposing these kinds of gestures for refusing to come to their senses and be decent. Both viewpoints are not worthy of equal consideration.
 

pigeon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,581
This may come as a huge shock to you, but there are actually people who go to conventions like this to just see panels of a single game
That seems like a really dumb purchasing decision. What if the panel got canceled because somebody caught the flu?

Also, as deepFlaw repeatedly noted, the panels weren't even decided when the tickets went on sale.