Riot Games made two events @ PAX West exclusive to women and non-binary folks. Chaos ensues.

[deepFlaw]

I read a few comments acting like it was a career opportunity panel not a panel more specific to the problems certain groups face/awareness. I was wrong and would've realized that if I thought for more then half a second

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It is about career opportunities.

But that's literally a problem those groups face, not having equal opportunities. It's one of the many issues outlined as happening at Riot specifically, in fact. To hold these events is to specifically target that problem.

 

[Deleted member 1041]

I read a few comments acting like it was a career opportunity panel not a panel more specific to the problems certain groups face/awareness. I was wrong and would've realized that if I thought for more then half a second

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I mean, it is a panel for career opportunities for women in the games industry focusing on specific roles listed(ie art or producing) because well...the games industry has issues when it comes to hiring minorities.

But fair enough.

 

[rras1994]

I read a few comments acting like it was a career opportunity panel not a panel more specific to the problems certain groups face/awareness. I was wrong and would've realized that if I thought for more then half a second

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Woman do need career oportunity panels, it's both.

 

[Gentlemen]

Gotta love it when people invoke MLK's name in an attempt to wield a fisher-price at best understanding of his words and deeds as a cudgel against people trying to effect positive change for under-represented people in an industry with an acknowledged problem.

Let's fix things for women and non-binary applicants to the game industry.
No, not like that, what would MLK have said?

 

[BlacJack]

This is the problem with trying to be in the middle. You end up typing out long posts that end up saying nothing at all. You aren't clear, because you are trying to straddle the fence, which just enables the status quo. And then you bring no solutions to the table and only respond defensively while not engaging any of the actual points being made to you.

Of course, this could have been your intent all along. It's part of the playbook after all.

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First off, no one has brought solutions to the table, so there is that.

Second, the only real problem with "playing the middle" is that depending who I'm talking to, different words and assumptions get added into my posts. It's quite interesting really just how differently people can read a sentence that very clearly stated my problem with segregation into me saying "we should do nothing guys!" People see what they want to see. There was nothing unclear about what I said.

And the long posts were my attempt at stopping the constant additions that were being shoved into my posts and all the slander. I have three people stating I said we should do nothing, yet none of them could quote it.

I agree, we had a long conversation and it ended up nowhere, because people don't like arguing the actual topic. They attempted to make it a personal slant on me quite quickly, much like you are doing now. One can only guess which playbook you think I'm following. It's quite obvious and sad really, that simply because I didn't pat them on the back I have become some right wing dude. I almost can't keep up with all the insinuations.

 

[Envelope]

"If" indeed. This feels like overcompensation from a company recently called out to be fostering a misogynistic culture within the workplace.

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????
IKR, what if some top rioter is trying to compensate for their shitty company culture and decided to do something good, what an awful thing to do, remind me again why we're supposed to be upset by this?

 

[Nepenthe]

Gotta love it when people invoke MLK's name in an attempt to wield a fisher-price at best understanding of his words and deeds as a cudgel against people trying to effect positive change for under-represented people in an industry with an acknowledged problem.

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Indeed.

There is no issue- real or imagined- that men face in the gaming sphere that warrants even bringing King up in the first place. It's completely out of touch.

 

[Gxgear]

????
IKR, what if some top rioter is trying to compensate for their shitty company culture and decided to do something good, what an awful thing to do, remind me again why we're supposed to be upset by this?

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Indeed, why talk about the issues and start a dialogue when you can just physically separate them? Again with the "what if's".

 

[deepFlaw]

????
IKR, what if some top rioter is trying to compensate for their shitty company culture and decided to do something good, what an awful thing to do

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Especially when women (and I assume potentially nb folks) at Riot are the ones apparently running the panels, I don't really get this concern either. It might have been a hasty reaction to recent news, it might not have, but if it was, it's not a bad thing just cause it was reacting to that news.

 

[RedMercury]

That whole twitter thread from Daniel Klein makes me think that someone created some kind of woke feminist AI that just auto-generates these spiels, they are all so identical with the same talking points, like most people here probably don't have to read beyond the first post to know everything else that is coming.

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What problem do you have with his statements specifically? At least the ones in the OP are pretty sensible. What is your opinion on them having these specific events?

Indeed, why talk about the issues and start a dialogue when you can just physically separate them?

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There is a necessity for physically separating them because in general spaces men generally can't be trusted to give women fair opportunities or an equal voice.

 

[L Thammy]

I feel like my response to seeing that I wouldn't be allowed at this event would be "ah well". I don't care for MOBA or even cons so I'm not speaking from reality here, but presuming I did, wouldn't there be other things for me to go to at PAX West?

Even if it is "overcompensation", it seems to be "offensive" in the same way as women's sports or affirmative action. That is, it's unequal in that it serves to address a situation that's already unequal, and protesting it on that grounds tends to be either confused overidealist people or people who are trying to paint themselves as victims when they've been in power the entire time.

It's like the question of "why is black power good when white power is bad". There's a good chance that you know that, and even if you don't, it's not hard to figure out.

 

[deepFlaw]

Indeed, why talk about the issues and start a dialogue when you can just physically separate them?

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What dialogue are you possibly imagining here? Do tell.

And is it somehow more useful than allowing potential Riot employees who are not men have a "dialogue" with current Riot employees who are not men, so that they can talk about the issues without the people perpetuating them present?

 

[rras1994]

Indeed, why talk about the issues and start a dialogue when you can just physically separate them?

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Why do you need to start a dialogue with the male community - isn't just inviting women who are interested in the games industry starting a dialogue with the people who are actually affected by Riot? What would asking random male gamers/guys interested in games industry help about improving the life's of women in Riot?????

 

[Gxgear]

What problem do you have with his statements specifically? At least the ones in the OP are pretty sensible. What is your opinion on them having these specific events?

There is a necessity for physically separating them because in general spaces men generally can't be trusted to give women fair opportunities or an equal voice.

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And a panel can't facilitate that? It's worst than I thought...

 

[Deleted member 835]

Gotta love it when people invoke MLK's name in an attempt to wield a fisher-price at best understanding of his words and deeds as a cudgel against people trying to effect positive change for under-represented people in an industry with an acknowledged problem.

Let's fix things for women and non-binary applicants to the game industry.
No, not like that, what would MLK have said?

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Also forgetting what happened to MLK

 

[deepFlaw]

And a panel can't facilitate that? It's worst than I thought...

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I really want you to explain to me how this panel you're imagining is supposed to fix sexism, because I think women everywhere would love to hear it

 

[JDazzle]

This seems like a very odd way to address the recent scandal they are caught up in.

Rather than focus on the steps they are taking to make the workplace more inviting and safe for women, they do a whole recruitment thing to help women enter the industry... that they are making less inviting and safe for women...

I feel like they may need to re-evaluate everything on how to respond to this scandal... this isn't addressing their issue and is clearly a PR move.

Taking a step back, though, if Nintendo did something like this we would all rejoice.

However, context is everything here. This is a company coming off of very bad publicity showing how toxic their environment is to non-men and these presentations don't address that at all.

 

[deepFlaw]

This seems like a very odd way to address the recent scandal they are caught up in.

Rather than focus on the steps they are taking to make the workplace more inviting and safe for women, they do a whole recruitment thing to help women enter the industry... that they are making less inviting and safe for women...

I feel like they may need to re-evaluate everything on how to respond to this scandal... this isn't addressing their issue and is clearly a PR move.

Taking a step back, though, if Nintendo did something like this we would all rejoice.

However, context is everything here. This is a company coming off of very bad publicity showing how toxic their environment is to non-men and these presentations don't address that at all.

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They implicitly do address that, by allowing direct access to non-men who already work there who can be talked to about the environment. There's literally a portion of the time dedicated to just asking them questions.

It's not men running this stuff, if you read the OP. It's women/nb folks helping other women/nb folks. And they're, at large, not the ones making the environment worse for people who aren't men.

 

[Adamska]

The safe and inclusive environment for one group is created by excluding another group
Don't know how you can say it ain't when it clearly is.

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It's not exclusion to provide a safe environment for those who are routinely and systematically oppressed in open spaces, period.

Picture a situation where, while walking the street, at least half of every person is openly carrying a semi-automatic rifle, and you're not. People with rifles will sometimes pass you by doing nothing, but some will point their rifles at you playfully or even shoot their rifles upwards near you for fun, some will even be enraged if you don't smile while they do so, not to mention all the cases where people with rifles injured or killed people without rifles just because. This is the kind of threat of violence that women and LGBT-folks are subject to daily. In this example, anyone without a rifle would feel much safer inside a rifle-free environment, because they would not be subject to a constant threat of violence. As for the people with rifles, they already control every other environment, they are never at a threat of violence or exclusion, and the rifle-free environment doesn't change that. In our society, we have a duty to provide safe spaces for those who are excluded by those who control most open environments in order for these people to feel more comfortable and, eventually, more included.

 

[Deleted member 835]

Privileged people like to moan when people that aren't as privileged/ have no privilege get a lil privilege, is my take on this whole thing

 

[Suzushiiro]

Reminds me of the female-only Wonder Woman screenings that Alamo Draft House put on... only this time we already know that the company is infested with sexual predators instead of it not coming out until a few months later. The fact that they think women will feel more safe in a space where the only men are employees of a company led by a man who effectively fired a guy for complaining about a rape-ey joke that he not only made at an official company function but added to their recruiting manual is fucking laughable.

 

[deepFlaw]

Reminds me of the female-only Wonder Woman screenings that Alamo Draft House put on... only this time we already know that the company is infested with sexual predators instead of it not coming out until a few months later. The fact that they think women will feel more safe in a space where the only men are employees of a company led by a man who effectively fired a guy for complaining about a rape-ey joke that he not only made at an official company function but added to their recruiting manual is fucking laughable.

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Would it kill people to read the OP before posting?

"Stop by to learn from and get to know some of the badass women of Riot!"

 

[Nepenthe]

Indeed, why talk about the issues and start a dialogue when you can just physically separate them? Again with the "what if's".

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What ideas do you think men can uniquely contribute to a dialogue about sexism in gaming?

 

[Deleted member 1248]

First off, no one has brought solutions to the table, so there is that.

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Holy shit. The PAX panel is a solution.

 

[Silent]

I've been following this on Reddit for a while and it's absurd how the women-only panel is misconstrued as an attack on men. It's telling how loudly people protest anytime a minority is given preferential treatment that had been enjoyed by the dominant group for centuries. Yet the initial reports of the sexist dude-bro culture within Riot received a fraction of the criticism. People literally think white men are being victimized in this country. Some comments even talked about this being the reason Trump needs to/will win in 2020 again.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

Name one opinion relevant to any of the topics that women haven't already heard from men. Just one.

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"We support women in the games industry and don't mind stepping back and giving you space to speak your mind for once!"

Oh…

Masculinity within gaming circles stays misdirected, pathetic and fragile judging by many posts in this thread. What a farce.

Indeed, why talk about the issues and start a dialogue when you can just physically separate them? Again with the "what if's".

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Men in gaming have been speaking for decades and we've only been saying complete and utter shit in terms of female representation and opportunity. I think we deserve to shut the fuck up for a while, don't you?

It's not my job to explain a warped conversation you're steering towards. I've made my point.

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So, like always with concern trolls, you're essentially saying literally nothing and sticking by it. It's easy to "win" an argument by being as vague as possible in order to shield yourself because you're too scared to say what you really think about the issue. Either say something and defend your position or enjoy having words put into your mouth because you only leave yourself open to assumptions. Those assumptions are not reflecting positively on you right now, FYI.

 

[Gxgear]

I really want you to explain to me how this panel you're imagining is supposed to fix sexism, because I think women everywhere would love to hear it

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It's not my job to explain a warped conversation you're steering towards. I've made my point.

What ideas do you think men can uniquely contribute to a dialogue about sexism in gaming?

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How about something as simple as hearing the challenges that women faces in the workplace? Acknowledging the things that may have been taken for granted in a male-dominated industry.

 

[Deleted member 1041]

I've been following this on Reddit for a while and it's absurd how the women-only panel is misconstrued as an attack on men. It's telling how loudly people protest anytime a minority is given preferential treatment that had been enjoyed by the dominant group for centuries. Yet the initial reports of the sexist dude-bro culture within Riot received a fraction of the criticism. People literally think white men are being victimized in this country. Some comments even talked about this being the reason Trump needs to/will win in 2020 again.

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Honestly right now the League reddit is being overrun by incels/gamergaters/what have you. Ive read a ton of comments from multiple pax threads there and just the garbage being said is disgusting and embarrassing.

 

[deepFlaw]

I've been following this on Reddit for a while and it's absurd how the women-only panel is misconstrued as an attack on men. It's telling how loudly people protest anytime a minority is given preferential treatment that had been enjoyed by the dominant group for centuries. Yet the initial reports of the sexist dude-bro culture within Riot received a fraction of the criticism. People literally think white men are being victimized in this country. Some comments even talked about this being the reason Trump needs to/will win in 2020 again.

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Now I'm gonna do a PAX panel that's just me screaming "Anyone whose allyship only exists on the condition that you're nice to the oppressors isn't an ally at all." till I lose my voice.

 

[Nepenthe]

It's not my job to explain a warped conversation you're steering towards. I've made my point.

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It is, however, your job to explain yourself after vaguely alluding to the notion that these panels are going to lose something without the presence of men.

 

[Mobyduck]

Privileged people like to moan when people that aren't as privileged/ have no privilege get a lil privilege, is my take on this whole thing

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It's definitely the case, as is with many of this cases when they are brought up. People who never suffered for being a minority can't seem to comprehend why this kind of thing is needed to those who have.

 

[deepFlaw]

It's not my job to explain a warped conversation you're steering towards. I've made my point.

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You sincerely have not made any point at all, since you've only vaguely mentioned a "dialogue" between men and women with no elaboration at all as to what that would be, or how they could present a panel that would solve extremely common issues that are tied to sexism everywhere, not just at their company.

Or would posting more than two sentences at a time to explain what you actually mean be too hard?

 

[JDazzle]

They implicitly do address that, by allowing direct access to non-men who already work there who can be talked to about the environment. There's literally a portion of the time dedicated to just asking them questions.

It's not men running this stuff, if you read the OP. It's women/nb folks helping other women/nb folks. And they're, at large, not the ones making the environment worse for people who aren't men.

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But the issue isn't with the women on the panel or the women attending. The main issue occurring at their HQ is that the environment is toxic for non-men and that isn't gonna be addressed by a panel meant to help recruit people into the industry.

Also, I did read the OP and never suggested that men were running the stuff, nor did I place any blame on the people running the panels.

 

[Pasha]

What problem do you have with his statements specifically? At least the ones in the OP are pretty sensible. What is your opinion on them having these specific events?

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Power + privileged nonsense about how people can't be sexist against men or people can't be racist against white people, ect. It's just at this point I've read so many of these and they all sound the same and read as a laundry list of talking points at this point. It's like listening to a right-winger talk about socialism and the inevitable "but Venezuela" bomb drop, I can't help but roll my eyes.
As for the events, I'm totally fine with Riot doing them and I don't consider exclusive events like these to be "sexist" whether they are female or male exclusive, although I do get the feeling that people around here would actually consider the latter to be sexist but not the former.

 

[Grimminski]

Daniel's right, and yeah events like this do need to exist, but I'm not sure if Riot is the company that should be leading this charge given their history and the constant stream of negative stories from women that work/ed there.

Also, fuck Reddit. Between this and the puddle thing earlier this week it's been non stop embarrassment in the gaming community. Why can't you fuckers just be normal???

 

[deepFlaw]

Power + privileged nonsense about how people can't be sexist against men or people can't be racist against white people, ect. It's just at this point I've read so many of these and they all sound the same and read as a laundry list of talking points at this point. It's like listening to a right-winger talk about socialism and the inevitable "but Venezuela" bomb drop, I can't help but roll my eyes.
As for the events, I'm totally fine with Riot doing them and I don't consider exclusive events like these to be "sexist" whether they are female or male exclusive, although I do get the feeling that people around here would actually consider the latter to be sexist but not the former.

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I'm sorry that the truth sounds very samey to you, but that's sorta your own problem?

 

[TyrantGuardian]

Power + privileged nonsense about how people can't be sexist against men or people can't be racist against white people, ect. It's just at this point I've read so many of these and they all sound the same and read as a laundry list of talking points at this point. It's like listening to a right-winger talk about socialism and the inevitable "but Venezuela" bomb drop, I can't help but roll my eyes.

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Or maybe you have no clue what racism or sexism even are and how they function in society if you don't understand what those arguments are saying. Can't help but roll my eyes.

 

[Nome]

But the issue isn't with the women on the panel or the women attending. The main issue occurring at their HQ is that the environment is toxic for non-men and that isn't gonna be addressed by a panel meant to help recruit people into the industry.

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Riot has always considered outreach to be a major arm of its community policy, well before any articles of impropriety were published.
This event is an affirmation and focusing of that policy.

 

[Gxgear]

You sincerely have not made any point at all, since you've only vaguely mentioned a "dialogue" between men and women with no elaboration at all as to what that would be, or how they could present a panel that would solve extremely common issues that are tied to sexism everywhere, not just at their company.

Or would posting more than two sentences at a time to explain what you actually mean be too hard?

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Except I already did, that Riot's overcompensating. But as always someone twists it to the extreme and expects their interpretation to be defended.

It is, however, your job to explain yourself after vaguely alluding to the notion that these panels are going to lose something without the presence of men.

Click to shrink...

Already done.

 

[Deleted member 1041]

Daniel's right, and yeah events like this do need to exist, but I'm not sure if Riot is the company that should be leading this charge given their history and the constant stream of negative stories from women that work/ed there.

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Honestly if it wasnt Riot, what other big game company was gonna do it? Yes, Riot has had stories about its toxicity come out. But in their responses to it, theyve seemingly been sincere about trying to do and be better.

And thats fine. Thats what we should want out of situations like this. Not for a company to bury their head in the sand, not for them to pretend it never happened, but for them to strive better. And Riot is trying to do that.

 

[RedMercury]

Power + privileged nonsense about how people can't be sexist against men or people can't be racist against white people, ect. It's just at this point I've read so many of these and they all sound the same and read as a laundry list of talking points at this point. It's like listening to a right-winger talk about socialism and the inevitable "but Venezuela" bomb drop, I can't help but roll my eyes.

Click to shrink...

Instead of rolling your eyes you should try opening them.

 

[Nome]

You sincerely have not made any point at all, since you've only vaguely mentioned a "dialogue" between men and women with no elaboration at all as to what that would be, or how they could present a panel that would solve extremely common issues that are tied to sexism everywhere, not just at their company.

Or would posting more than two sentences at a time to explain what you actually mean be too hard?

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I'll give you a "hot" take on this: they don't even need to present a panel catered towards women.
All they really need to do is present a normal panel and exclude men to create a safe space. Period.

When your company is bleeding talent and putting off 50% of the human race, you're gonna need to make some amends.
This is a pretty good first step.

 

[Grimminski]

Honestly if it wasnt Riot, what other big game company was gonna do it? Yes, Riot has had stories about its toxicity come out. But in their responses to it, theyve seemingly been sincere about trying to do and be better.

And thats fine. Thats what we should want out of situations like this. Not for a company to bury their head in the sand, not for them to pretend it never happened, but for them to strive better. And Riot is trying to do that.

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People like to hate on EA but from what I've heard that do right by their employees.

 

[deepFlaw]

Except I already did, that Riot's overcompensating. But as always someone twists it to the extreme and expects their interpretation to be defended.

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It's not my fault you edited in something to respond to Nepenthe after I'd already posted what you quoted just now.

And no, any random man who wants to learn about extremely basic issues of sexism can read the fucking expose about Riot, or anything related to sexism written ever. That doesn't help people who aren't men get into the industry.

...and, like, anyone who's not already familiar with, again, extremely basic issues related to sexism, isn't going to attend a panel about it to begin with, at least not in good faith.

 

[devSin]

"Sexism against men" was all I needed to read to know Riot didn't actually do anything wrong here.

Like, I still believe this type of event is just window dressing (an attempt to distract from their pervasive internal culture of sexism, homophobia, and toxicity), but it's clear as day what the people whining about it are trying to do.

 

[Gxgear]

It's not my fault you edited in something to respond to Nepenthe after I'd already posted what you quoted just now.

And no, any random man who wants to learn about extremely basic issues of sexism can read the fucking expose about Riot, or anything related to sexism written ever. That doesn't help people who aren't men get into the industry.

...and, like, anyone who's not already familiar with, again, extremely basic issues related to sexism, isn't going to attend a panel about it to begin with, at least not in good faith.

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I didn't edit anything. I added a follow-up response to a reasonable question within a single post instead of doubling up. My initial point still stands.

 

[deepFlaw]

I'll give you a "hot" take on this: they don't even need to present a panel catered towards women.
All they really need to do is present a normal panel and exclude men to create a safe space. Period.

When your company is bleeding talent and putting off 50% of the human race, you're gonna need to make some amends.
This is a pretty good first step.

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Agreed. This kind of outreach and access is very good, but even that kind of space can be nice for folks without any specific purpose beyond making the space; that's justifiable in itself.

People like to hate on EA but from what I've heard that do right by their employees.

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Well, maybe in ways relevant to this conversation (which is certainly very important), but then there's crunch...

 

[Nepenthe]

How about something as simple as hearing the challenges that women faces in the workplace? Acknowledging the things that may have been taken for granted in a male-dominated industry.

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The consistent claims that women feel dismissed, undermined, and shut out from gaming culture from top to bottom, or have experienced verbal and sexual harassment, are viewpoints that are already easily accessed by men. There is a huge thread on this very forum outlining some of those feelings and experiences that the men who are dismissing this panel could go and peruse right now if they wanted to.

The problem is that, time and time again, women aren't listened to, or they are actively confronted by angry men, which is what would likely happen at this panel if men were allowed in, assuming the presence of the men didn't chance the nature of the conversation to the point that women wouldn't feel like bothering speaking up in the first place.

This controversy, first and foremost, is about men's feelings, which is a very difficult thing to assuage when talking about issues of cultural misogyny. Sometimes, you need to ignore bullshit to get things done.

 

[deepFlaw]

I didn't edit anything. I added a follow-up response to a reasonable question within a single post instead of doubling up. My initial point still stands.

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So you didn't edit this post, even though both me and Nepenthe quoted the version without the second half in it?

 

[RedMercury]

How about something as simple as hearing the challenges that women faces in the workplace? Acknowledging the things that may have been taken for granted in a male-dominated industry.

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Why do men need a panel to listen, they have ears, they can do it right now, they just choose not to. If they gave a shit they could reach out and ask.