• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,902
Never forget the immortal quote:
robinhood.png
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
Glad I got out while only taking a slight beating, I was worried they were gonna crack down but I didn't expect them to go all out like it did. Feels like they got everyone EXCEPT Gamestop lol
 

Deleted member 2379

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,739
Why would Robinhood need any money themselves.

Does this have to do with the time period it takes to settle cash?

When you buy or sell a stock the broker uses a clearinghouse to settle the transaction. There is one that controls all to ensure we know who owns what. Stocks settle at T+2. The clearinghouse expects that the buyer will pay the sale price at T+2 and seller expects to receive it then.

In case the buyer goes insolvent and can't fulfill its obligation brokers must post collateral (incredibly arcane calculation heavily dependent on volatility) as a deposit. This amount was updated post-Dodd Frank to be higher to ensure there are no failures requiring unwinding.

This collateral can only be from the brokers own equity account. Cannot use client money. In normal times this isn't an issue and its deminimis. Because of the government mandated calculation highly volatile stocks require significantly more collateral and it can grow exponentially. Thus liquidity crisis.

Essentially, SEC regulations post 2008 were setup to make sure all the brokers posted enough collateral and had skin in the game to ensure trades were made and no required unwinding on a broker failure. These regulations were never designed for this type of volatility in a stock. The total collateral that had to be posted by brokers went up by a couple billion this week tied to the few stocks named.

See my next post below.
 

Deleted member 2379

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,739
Robinhood established their own clearinghouse (Clearing by Robinhood), but they're also still using third-party clearinghouses. You can see this by the fact that they have two DTC numbers, 6769 for Clearing by Robinhood, and 0158 for Apex Clearing. They likely silently returned to being just an introducing broker to handle the surge in demand...which is fucking them over right now.

RH isn't using Apex. They are their own clearinghouse. IT was the DTCC that got them.

Why did Robinhood stop them?
You don't think about it much, but every stock trade involves an extension of credit. You see a price on the stock exchange and push a button and instantaneously get back a confirmation that you bought some shares of stock, but you actually get the shares, and pay the money for them, two business days later. This is called "T+2 settlement," and it might seem a little silly in an age when a "share of stock" is an entry in an electronic database and "money" is also an entry in an electronic database. Why not just update the databases when you push the button? T+2 settlement feels like a vestige of the olden days, when traders agreed to trades on the stock exchange but then had to go back to their vaults to dig up stock certificates to hand over in exchange for sacks of cash. Back when I worked on Wall Street it was T+3. These days it is not hard to find people who want to talk to you about moving to instantaneous settlement on the blockchain. Bitcoin trades settle immediately. But U.S. stocks, for now, settle T+2.

This means that the seller takes two days of credit risk to the buyer.[4] I see a stock trading at $400 on Monday, I push the button to buy it, I buy it from you at $400. On Tuesday the stock drops to $20. On Wednesday you show up with the stock that I bought on Monday, and you ask me for my $400. I am no longer super jazzed to give it to you. I might find a reason not to pay you. The reason might be that I'm bankrupt, from buying all that stock for $400 on Monday.

The way that stock markets mostly deal with this risk is a system of clearinghouses. The stock trades are processed through a clearinghouse. The members of the clearinghouse are big brokerage firms—"clearing brokers"—who send trades to the clearinghouses and guarantee them. The clearing brokers post collateral with the clearinghouses: They put up some money to guarantee that they'll show up to pay off all their settlement obligations. The clearing brokers have customers—institutional investors, smaller brokers—who post collateral with the clearing brokers to guarantee their obligations. The smaller brokers, in turn, have customers of their own—retail traders, etc.—and also have to make sure that, if a customer buys stock on a Monday, she'll have the cash to pay for it on Wednesday.[5]

This is not stuff most people worry about most of the time. Generally if you buy a stock on Monday you still want it on Wednesday; even if you don't, we live in a society, and you'll probably cough up the money anyway because that's what you're supposed to do. But at some level of volatility things break down. If a stock is really worth $400 on Monday and $20 on Wednesday, there is a risk that a lot of the people who bought it on Monday won't show up with cash on Wednesday. Something very bad happened to them between Monday and Wednesday; some of them might not have made it. You need to make sure the collateral is sufficient to cover that risk. The more likely it is that a stock will go from $400 to $20, or $20 to $400 for that matter,[6] the more collateral you need.

Anyway why did Robinhood (and other retail brokers) shut down purchases of GameStop (and other meme stocks)? Here is a good explanation from Bloomberg News:

One key consideration for brokers, particularly around high-flying and volatile stocks like GameStop, is in the money they must put up with the DTCC while waiting a few days for stock transactions to settle. Those outlays, which behave like margin in a brokerage account, can create a cash crunch on volatile days, say when GameStop falls from $483 to $112 like it did at one point during Thursday's session.

"It's not really Robinhood doing nefarious stuff," said Bloomberg Intelligence analyst Larry Tabb. "It's the DTCC saying 'This stuff is just too risky. We don't trust that these guys have the cash to be able to withstand settling these things two days from now, because in two days, who knows what the price could be, it could be zero.'"

The trouble on Thursday began around 10 a.m., when after days of turbulence, the DTCC demanded significantly more collateral from member brokers, according to two people familiar with the matter.

A spokesman for the DTCC wouldn't specify how much it required from specific firms but said that by the end of the day industrywide collateral requirements jumped to $33.5 billion, up from $26 billion.

Brokerage executives rushed to figure out how to come up with the funds. Robinhood's reaction drew the most public attention, but the firm wasn't alone in limiting trading of stocks such as GameStop and AMC Entertainment Holdings Inc.

In fact, Charles Schwab Corp.'s TD Ameritrade curbed transactions in both of those companies on Wednesday. Interactive Brokers Group Inc. and Morgan Stanley's E*Trade took similar action Thursday.

And here is the Wall Street Journal:

At least three brokerages said the trading restrictions stemmed from mandates from their clearing firm, which process the securities on the back end after a user executes a trade with their brokerage. Webull Chief Executive Anthony Denier said his platform's clearing firm, Apex Clearing Corp., notified him Thursday morning that Webull needed to shut off the ability to open new positions in certain stocks. Otherwise, Apex wouldn't be able to settle the trades, he said. ...

Mr. Denier at Webull said the restrictions originated Thursday morning when the Depository Trust & Clearing Corp. instructed his clearing firm, Apex, that it was increasing the collateral it needed to put up to help settle the trades for stocks like GameStop. In turn, Apex told Webull to restrict the ability to open new positions in order to prevent trades from failing, Mr. Denier said.

DTCC, which operates the clearinghouses for U.S. stock and bond trades, is a key part of the plumbing of financial markets. Usually drawing little notice, it facilitates the movement of stocks and bonds among buyers and sellers and provides data and analytics services.

In a statement, DTCC said the volatility in stocks like GameStop and AMC has "generated substantial risk exposures at firms that clear these trades" at its clearinghouse for stock trades. Those risks were especially pronounced for firms whose clients were "predominantly on one side of the market," a reference to brokers whose customers were heavily betting for stocks to rise or fall, rather than having a mix of positions.

Robinhood drew down "at least several hundred million dollars" from its bank credit lines and "said on Thursday that it was raising an infusion of more than $1 billion from its existing investors." The volatility of those stocks is approaching infinity as their trading volume increases, so the traditionally mild and technical credit risk around settling trades has become real and scary. Brokerages have to put up more money to guarantee against that risk, and also think about ways to prevent the risk from coming true. "Stop buying super volatile stocks" is one obvious way. It has become expensive and risky to be a broker for the meme stocks, so some of them tried to stop.[7]

There are conspiracy theories floating around, because this feels weird, but it is actually pretty normal? Byrne Hobart writes:

In a way, WallStreetBets' GameStop experience is the culmination of efforts to give retail investors an institution-quality experience. As Josh Brown points out, WallStreetBets is a scaled-up version of an idea dinner. It might seem more raucous than how financial professionals behave, but competitive hyper-bullishness and hyper-boorishness are not restricted to reddit and Discord. Most individual investors don't lever up enough, or get into crowded enough trades, that their broker raises collateral requirements at the most inconvenient possible moment, but this does happen to institutions. And professional investors often develop somewhat conspiratorial instincts—the more research you've done before a trade, the more losing money on it feels like the result of sinister forces trying to thwart you. After many layers of indirection, WallStreetBets and Robinhood have given retail investors a version of the professional experience.
 
Nov 18, 2020
1,408
RH isn't using Apex. They are their own clearinghouse. IT was the DTCC that got them.

You're right, I'm not sure of the exact nature of their current relationship because it's not publicly disclosed anymore. Apex Clearing is the backbone for pretty much all of these new age trading platforms, so that's speculation on my part, my bad.

For clarification for others, clearing firms (e.g. Robinhood acting as their own clearinghouse) still have obligations to DTCC. Almost all US equities are settled by DTCC two days after the transaction takes place. Brokers need to put up money / collateral with the DTCC to back those trades during the two days, which creates cash crunches on volatile days.
 

Damaniel

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,535
Portland, OR
When you buy or sell a stock the broker uses a clearinghouse to settle the transaction. There is one that controls all to ensure we know who owns what. Stocks settle at T+2. The clearinghouse expects that the buyer will pay the sale price at T+2 and seller expects to receive it then.

In case the buyer goes insolvent and can't fulfill its obligation brokers must post collateral (incredibly arcane calculation heavily dependent on volatility) as a deposit. This amount was updated post-Dodd Frank to be higher to ensure there are no failures requiring unwinding.

This collateral can only be from the brokers own equity account. Cannot use client money. In normal times this isn't an issue and its deminimis. Because of the government mandated calculation highly volatile stocks require significantly more collateral and it can grow exponentially. Thus liquidity crisis.

Essentially, SEC regulations post 2008 were setup to make sure all the brokers posted enough collateral and had skin in the game to ensure trades were made and no required unwinding on a broker failure. These regulations were never designed for this type of volatility in a stock. The total collateral that had to be posted by brokers went up by a couple billion this week tied to the few stocks named.

See my next post below.

In other words, if you're going to trade in pumped up meme stocks, do it through a traditional broker since they're likely to have the equity to cover that volatility.
 

Autumn

Avenger
Apr 1, 2018
6,304
Wonder what this means when a massive economic collapse happens? I know there's circuit breakers but would trading platforms or stock exchanges just shut it down?
 

Razgriz417

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,107
sounds like a coverup for yesterday, for the 10 clients they'll have left after all this is said and done
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,009
cashing out as soon as doge goes up a bit more and moving to Webull. I am taking a loss because RH took a shit and wouldn't let people invest.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Wonder what this means when a massive economic collapse happens? I know there's circuit breakers but would trading platforms or stock exchanges just shut it down?

Forget it, the volume of people who can trade by themselves at any moment has increased by an amount disproportionate to server capacity. I couldn't even log in to RBC Investment for an hour two days ago and I wasn't even trying to trade. The volume wasn't even high, it was just high relative to your average day.

A real market correction over a day or a few days would likely cause servers to go down randomly and brokerage firms setting priorities based on portfolio size.

Mark this prediction: the next bailout won't be done by the government. It will be brokerage firms force selling their retail investors' positions to protect their biggest clients. We saw this this week and regulators and lawmakers are confused, not caring, or sleeping at the switch.

Warren's comment today was basically "People are buying highly volatile stocks without understanding what they're getting into! I will take action to prevent that!"

Good luck with that kind of help.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,422
Mark this prediction: the next bailout won't be done by the government. It will be brokerage firms force selling their retail investors' positions to protect their biggest clients.


This sounds like a guaranteed way to set a good chunk of the country on fire... You do that shit and you are gonna have more problems than "storming the capitol". People would lose their shit, and rightfully so.
 

BlackNMild2k1

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,340
Bay Area, CA
I literally just started into stock trading and using Robinhood about 2 weeks ago.
I fell asleep on the AMC stock that I meant to buy 2 weeks ago because I knew they would be coming back this Summer in some way.

with all the BS they are doing now, what is the better alternative app(s) people use?
and how easy is it to transfer my stocks and remaining funds off of Robinhood
 

Br3wnor

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,982
So what would happen to my shares if they go under? I have a little NAKD and some DOGE. Only $150 worth total but would rather not lose it if they go under
 

Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
Why would Robinhood need any money themselves.

Does this have to do with the time period it takes to settle cash?

That huge company behind the hedge fund pays for all their trades to get users data to use to calculate trends. Fuck robinhood forever.

It took a few days to cash out to my bank account. I suggest everyone else do the same.

..all 500 bucks .. but still.... It's the principle.

Also. This is the one time I wish everyone with bots and shit would out them to use.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
youre trying to tell me that these laidback longhairs arent actually just chill dudes trying to use tech for good


a4ikt34.png



what


no way


how cud this happn