Especially since Punk has been far more notorious for skinheads, white supremacy and nazi punk. But any reasonable person isnt going to write off a wide genre because of a few people.
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rock isnt dead yet.
- Thread starter woodcutter
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Bullshit. The Heavy Metal community is one of the most accepting communities and fandoms around. The support Rob Halford got in the 90's when he came out as gay is proof of that.
N
Not the biggest fan of metal but a lot of my friends are metal heads and they're awesome. Rock on!
Logical fallacy. Also that's not true. Also it doesn't matter whether or not I do or don't - I just need to read about the scene and all of the horrible shit going down within it right now. Juggalos have more ethics than metal fans, who gladly defend nazis and rapists to justify their bands.
Nope.
Lmao, this is such a terrible example. The dude from Gorgoroth came out 10 years ago and said he was dating a Norwegian male model and both him and his partner got inundated by death threats. That's one of several examples of disgusting shit like that happening to the scene.
Just for TALKING about neo Nazi propaganda in the metal scene, people have been sending threats to the editors of Metal Sucks, constantly making racist anti- Jewish remarks to them.
Just for talking about the singer of Inquisiton being a pedophile and having access to child porn on verified police records - metal sites got attacked for it. These fucks defend actual child porn owners.
I have the honest feeling that many of you folks don't know what's been going on in the metal scene right now.
One might say that this deserves its own thread, but metal is largely a shitpile of toxicity and very little musical innovation these days to boot.
Up next on the top 10 list of poorly thought out posts on this site.
So because there are a few shitty people in the scene, the whole thing is bad because of my nitpicked examples
Talk about logical fallacy.
Fact of the matter is, no matter where you go there will always be shitty people. More often than not, those people don't make up the majority. Had you actually engaged in the scene rather than reading MetalSucks this would be quite clear to you. And I'm sure even they would point out how nonsense your argument is. MetalSucks and really any unmoderated comment section is and will be a shit show. And for every person that comments there are probably a hundred more that don't or won't bother. It's not an accurate representation of a group, simply a group of vocal people. To paint these people as a representation of the entire scene is nonsensical. Especially considering its a comment section of a fairly unpopular site, and one that's unpopular for good reason. Their journalism and professionalism is poor. Despite them often trying to do the right thing, their execution is poor as is the effort they put into articles. I'm not denying that a large reason that their commenters have issues with them is because they don't agree with their polititcs, but even beyond that they have a lot to be displeased with. Is that justification for people accusing them of being jewish and other stereotypically 4chan behaviour? No. Is it understandable as to why people are consistently frustrated with them? Yes.
Beyond that,let's not pretend that the homophobic and sexual abusers are another group of people that exist purely within and because of the metal scene. It's a societal issue and one that goes far beyond the reaches of the genre and those that occupy it. This is not a new issue and really has absolutely nothing to do with the metal scene in particular. Due to the sheer number of people within the metal industry there are bound to be unsavory people. As there are for literally anything else. Trying to use that as an example of why the scene is "alt right and toxic" in its entirety, is at best naive and lacking perspective.
And even beyond that. None of these issues are particularly new.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "alt right". Metal is a massive and diverse genre that appeals to a large range of people. Some of those people happen to be alt right. But considering you're on this forum I doubt you're going to start boycotting videogames as a whole because of gamergate or the fact that yes, alt right people also happen to like videogames, who knew?
Feel that the genre is lacking innovation all you want (Even though if you actually spent time exploring it you'd know that) but don't start peddling nonsense.
So because there are a few shitty people in the scene, the whole thing is bad because of my nitpicked examples
Talk about logical fallacy.
Fact of the matter is, no matter where you go there will always be shitty people. More often than not, those people don't make up the majority. Had you actually engaged in the scene rather than reading MetalSucks this would be quite clear to you. And I'm sure even they would point out how nonsense your argument is. MetalSucks and really any unmoderated comment section is and will be a shit show. And for every person that comments there are probably a hundred more that don't or won't bother. It's not an accurate representation of a group, simply a group of vocal people. To paint these people as a representation of the entire scene is nonsensical. Especially considering its a comment section of a fairly unpopular site, and one that's unpopular for good reason. Their journalism and professionalism is poor. Despite them often trying to do the right thing, their execution is poor as is the effort they put into articles. I'm not denying that a large reason that their commenters have issues with them is because they don't agree with their polititcs, but even beyond that they have a lot to be displeased with. Is that justification for people accusing them of being jewish and other stereotypically 4chan behaviour? No. Is it understandable as to why people are consistently frustrated with them? Yes.
Beyond that,let's not pretend that the homophobic and sexual abusers are another group of people that exist purely within and because of the metal scene. It's a societal issue and one that goes far beyond the reaches of the genre and those that occupy it. This is not a new issue and really has absolutely nothing to do with the metal scene in particular. Due to the sheer number of people within the metal industry there are bound to be unsavory people. As there are for literally anything else. Trying to use that as an example of why the scene is "alt right and toxic" in its entirety, is at best naive and lacking perspective.
And even beyond that. None of these issues are particularly new.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "alt right". Metal is a massive and diverse genre that appeals to a large range of people. Some of those people happen to be alt right. But considering you're on this forum I doubt you're going to start boycotting videogames as a whole because of gamergate or the fact that yes, alt right people also happen to like videogames, who knew?
Feel that the genre is lacking innovation all you want (Even though if you actually spent time exploring it you'd know that) but don't start peddling nonsense.
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I disagree. Both genres are incredibly inclusive and supportive as a whole, although there are obviously outliers in both, but that will happen with anything.
Great thread, found lots of "new" music that I hadn't heard before thanks to the thread.
Could not disagree more. As my avatar may indicate I am biased by being a huge PJ fan since the first time I heard them back in '91. While I do agree that thanks to PJ there were plenty of bands that tried to replicate their success (like Creed... face_puke). I can safely say that PJ did anything but rest on their laurels. If anything they actively tried to shun their success and experiment with their sound. They have been constantly releasing albums for 25 years( taking too much time between new studio albums) and they are one of the best live show experiences in rock. As awesome as Ten and Vs. are, I love some of their newer albums even more( the sole exception could be Riot Act).
Could not disagree more. As my avatar may indicate I am biased by being a huge PJ fan since the first time I heard them back in '91. While I do agree that thanks to PJ there were plenty of bands that tried to replicate their success (like Creed... face_puke). I can safely say that PJ did anything but rest on their laurels. If anything they actively tried to shun their success and experiment with their sound. They have been constantly releasing albums for 25 years( taking too much time between new studio albums) and they are one of the best live show experiences in rock. As awesome as Ten and Vs. are, I love some of their newer albums even more( the sole exception could be Riot Act).
User Banned (1 Month): Inflammatory generalizations, hostile behaviour, long history of infractions for the same behaviour
So let's talk about logical fallacies. First you make an accusation that I "don't engage with the scene" - which is not only false, but completely irrelevant to the argument.
Next, my argument being that the entire scene is a toxic shithole. I don't want to list out every single example of how bad the metal scene is now, because honestly I'd have a novel. It's not just a few bad guys, it's the entire damn scene. If some indie rock band or punk band is accused of shitty things, the fans disown them, the label drops them etc. Look what happened to Brand New for example. Meanwhile just for existing as gay or trans in a metal band gets you death threats on a huge scale. Just for calling attention to the massive neo Nazi apologism going on now in metal gets huge defenses from the scene. They would rather protect neo nazis, homophobes, racists, bigots than see their favorite bands get called out. The only time a band actually gets disowned by the fans is when the opposite happens - when said band calls out the alt right or neo nazis. Machine Head did this, and their album sales went down dramatically, they get death threats and have to hire security, they get doxed. Take your no true Scotsman fallacy out of here because it's bullshit.
To be clear, I'm not saying the majority of metal fans are nazis or pedopholes - but the majority of metal fans DEFEND musicians and bands who are these things. That's unquestionable. I'd also allege the majority of bands at best, have engaged in blatant bigoted slurs in their career. Everyone from Guns & Roses to Zakk Wylde to Darkthrone has said something gross about Jews or gays. And again, that's discounting the neo nazis in bands.
Also this "you're not one of us" gatekeeping shit isn't going to work with me. It's dumb and yet another reason why the metal scene is a pile of shit.
Firstly, I'm not just talking about comment sections. Secondly, those sites don't have unmoderated comment sections. They actually have dedicated mods. That's actually a testimony to how bad shit is.
If you read my post, I use MS as an example of a blog that called out a specific band and got doxed, raided with anti jewish slurs, sent threats, and had an attempt at being de listed from Facebook. I should also mention that I said nothing about my opinion on that site as a whole - which is that they're a blog and those guys make dick and fart jokes and aren't journalists. So not only is your comment now extremely suspicious to me that you think that's a valid response for the aforementioned abuse that the writers should get for calling out Nazi bands because of their "journalism" but I also think you don't understand what journalism is either. And unlike you, I'm drawing my conclusions from the content of your post, I'm not trying to pull some gatekeeping fallacy out of my ass because I'm triggered from having my precious and shitty scene called out for harboring nazis and pedos.
It has everything to do with the alt right. There are tons of direct correlations between the election of Trump and right wing populism's "race realist" identity. Trump being elected and the rise of the alt right and the normalization of this behavior. It just so happens that a lot of these people love metal. What a shocker.
Well I definitely try not to support developers or places etc that align with gamergate. Certainly there was a time when video games were at a critical mass in terms of toxicity, but I think most games are trying to address things like diversity, representation, etc and are trying to shave away toxicity. Let's put it this way though, I've yet to see developers who are outright nazis, pedophiles, bigots, etc that get massive defenses from the community. Even something like Kingdom Come Deliverance, which certainly does have its defenders - that's over representation. The director of the game doesn't have photos of him seig heiling or shouting "white power" etc.
Oh and funny enough - there's a huge cross section of gamer gators that are metal fans - in fact this is an ongoing thing for a while. Milo himself has talked about how metal should be more alt right, YouTube personalities who made their names as gamergators constantly putting out disgusting videos about Anita and Zoe Quinn are all huge metal dorks. What a funny coincidence
Feel free to continue to make logically bankrupt comments like these at the expense of your trash scene, I hope it all crumbles to the ground over the weight of people on the outside recognizing it as music for losers and bigots.
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OP would serve themselves well to take advantage of Spotify's Discover Weekly playlist.
Rock was never close to dying.
Rock was never close to dying.
Machine Head's album had poor sales because the album had: Poor singles, reviewed poorly and was pretty terrible. As someone who doesn't mind The Blackening and Bloodstone and Diamonds, it was trash.
And what in the god damn hell are you talking about? Phil Anselmo got plenty of shit for his white power comments, he still gets shit for it, he's had to leave a few of his bands because of it.
http://www.metalinjection.net/shock...-to-move-on-without-him-in-new-apology-letter
Sure he still has his fans that don't care, as does Brand New, who had fans on their Reddit making conspiracy theories as to why the accusers accusations are lies and bullshit and still have no issue supporting to listening to the band. You can see the same thing on this very site with people hand-waving Kanye West's recent comments. You'll always have your devout fans that defend their favorite artists tooth and nail and you'll have people that just don't really care.
Where exactly is this "Massive Neo Nazi Apologism"? Because MetalSucks accused a couple bands of being Neo Nazi's? and their typicially awful comment section continued to be typically awful? Because that's a great metric for measuring a group of people that consists of millions world wide.
Here's the video interview with Gahl from Gorgoroth where he talks about being gay. Let's look at the reception.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m591K2awZi0
Nearly a million views. 3.5k likes vs 600 dislikes.
Pretty much all of the top comments are positive and dismissive of negative behavior.
The only bullshit is the nonsense you continue to perpetuate. You're taking a minority and complaining the whole scene is ruined because of it.
Nobody's gatekeeping. You're being called out for making a dumb argument based on nitpicked examples. How does a majority of metal fans defend said people? Because out of maybe 5000-1000 people that read an article, 200 comment on it and out of those 200 maybe 100 defend said people. Is that how this works? It's unquestionable yet you can't actually provide any examples that would constitute as proof. Guns N Roses, Zakk Wylde and Darkthrone. None of which have all that much influence on modern metal. And it's another metric that amounts to grasping at straws. Some people have said some shitty things at some point, most of those people have later at the very least repented for said comments and have shown that they've learned from it by not repeating the mistake. So what?
MetalSucks for all intents and purposes is pretty much unmoderated. They remove bots but they choose not to censor particularly deplorable content. You also fail to bring up any example of real world experiences and your entire post reeks of armchair criticisms (included with throwing around argumentative terms incorrectly)
This is a conclusion you could only come to if you had a 3rd graders level of reading comprehension. MetalSucks gets a large number of comments on plenty of their articles. Majority of them are about how the writers themselves are poor journalists. Secondary to that would be slurs and insults. I've read enough of the site to know.
So let me get this straight. You're equating the actions of a few people, to an entire scene. Who I've already agreed had some shitty people. But you continue to rail on and on about gatekeeping, engage in ad hominem attacks and fail to actually back up your belief that the entire scene harbors pedophiles and nazis, the former of which you have still yet to provide evidence for and the latter of which are few and far between. But you continue to fall back on "y-you're gatekeeping" as if that's an actual argumentative point.
Homophobia, Racism, Sexual Assault, all of that existed long before the alt right, in just about every group of people. What place does race realist identity have in this argument? You're grasping at straws again.
Charles Manson watched TV, liked music and and played instruments. Wow! you like music, watch TV. What a shocker, that two completely unrelated people can enjoy the same things. Must be because you're one in the same right?
What exactly are most games actively doing to address toxicity? Not much and they don't actively go out of their way to denounce people who may like their games but also be of the unsavory sort. Wolfenstein 2 is probably the only example. Kingdom Come Deliverance's issues come from the directors alt right leaning. Interesting that you rail against the alt right and yet hand wave that specific and popular case.
There's also a huge cross section of people that aren't gamergators that are metal fans, in fact, this has been an ongoing thing for a while. Plenty of people talk about how inclusive Metal is and can be. Plenty of people in the metal industry are fairly progressive. What a funny coincidence?
The only thing logically bankrupt is your argument, which is not only inconsistent and disingenuous but entirely hypocritical and without merit.
Edit: thanks to the mod that fixed the post
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The guitarist from Greta Van Fleet is on the cover of Guitar Player magazine this month. I like GVF, even though they are a shameless Zep ripoff, but I wouldn't put Jake Kiszka (had to look up his name) in a "guitar god" category. He plays nice riffs in a copycat style. In fact, none of the other musicians come even close to their Zep counterparts.
General rock is dead/terrible. Mostly consists of early/late 90s bands trying to cash in on their fanbase and can't tell bad music if it slapped them in the face.
But the sub genres of rock are thriving. Some very unique stuff coming out
But the sub genres of rock are thriving. Some very unique stuff coming out
There's a few bands with that name.
Initially thought you were talking about the band that came out with the album "The Place I Feel Safest" haha. That was an interesting first minute.
Listening to Tame Impala's Currents now.
Edit: Ooooh. This is niice.
No idea if rock is dead or alive and I don't care. I'll just keep listening to the old stuff until something new comes along that sounds good to me. I've never kept up with the scene. Slayer is going on their final tour which saddens me. But better to stop now before they start bringing oxygen tanks with them, I suppose.
When people imply rock is dead, they don't mean rock music is no longer made, instead they mean it is no longer at the level it use to be. Could just be nostalgia speaking, but they just don't make them like they use to, and these two examples from yesteryear aren't even the biggest of that generation but certainly had a soul to them unlike the rock music of today. Unless this isn't even considered rock, but something else entirely? Eh, yea it's probably just my nostalgia speaking.
Glad to see two Screaming Females mentions on the first page. So good.
I think an issue in rock music, which has existed for over a decade now, is that rock radio basically wants to stay in the 20th century. They do play new rock music, but a lot of it is pretty bad. Basically heavy-ish music that's palatable for regular people. Safe, soft pitches down the middle. Or they'll be firmly behind the curve. My local rock station ignored the indie boom of the mid 00s, then a few years later were playing singles from those bands' second and third albums.
Great rock never stopped existing, but it's beneath the surface. You may have to dig a little, but it's there.
I think an issue in rock music, which has existed for over a decade now, is that rock radio basically wants to stay in the 20th century. They do play new rock music, but a lot of it is pretty bad. Basically heavy-ish music that's palatable for regular people. Safe, soft pitches down the middle. Or they'll be firmly behind the curve. My local rock station ignored the indie boom of the mid 00s, then a few years later were playing singles from those bands' second and third albums.
Great rock never stopped existing, but it's beneath the surface. You may have to dig a little, but it's there.
I live on alt nation and the spectrum on siriusxm. There's tons of great, new artists out there!
LOVE the Struts! Have seen them twice, once at Voodoo in Nola, second time with Foo Fighters! Great band.
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They're obviously strongly influenced by Zeppelin and other rock and blues (as Zeppelin themselves were) acts but I don't think it's fair to call them a Zeppelin rip off, especially given their ages, I doubt there's been many unique bands out there made up of 21/22 year olds who don't wear their influences on their sleeve. Also not like Led Zeppelin has put out a studio album in the last few years or even last 35 or were a wellspring of originality themselves, I'm willing to give GVF a chance to evolve and see if they manage to go beyond their influences and still get radio play or if they just end up being another Wolfmother and considering I'm from and still live in the same area as they are I'm probably going to be hearing them for years even if they don't.
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Safe and theatrical are the words that come to mind when trying to contextualize stuff like Def Leppard within all that rock music has to offer.
I'll take Ought, Iceage and Parquet Courts over radio rock from the 80s without a second thought. I don't really see where modern rock lacks soul.
https://youtu.be/IN4MEzle8Hs
I don't think rock is dead, but it is out of mainstream and I don't know when or if it will ever get back there.
Anyway there is still lots of good underground stuff.
https://musicoin.org/track/0xe8f83a4ff78f1f48f44411e59bbb9b49774ced3b
Anyway there is still lots of good underground stuff.
https://musicoin.org/track/0xe8f83a4ff78f1f48f44411e59bbb9b49774ced3b
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I dont think its unfair. Its pretty clear as day. Whether or not thats a bad thing is up to opinion. Wearing your influences on your sleeve is fine. But theres a difference between that and just kinda straight ripping it off. Even in highway tune he does Plant's signature howl with "oooooooooooh mama". A long with the riff that is a rip of another Zeppelin song. IIRC the guitarist also said he studied Page's playing pretty hard.
I think people would be more forgiving if they took their abilities and fused it with something like prog rock. But thats not something that sells.
But as it is now theyre pretty unashamed in where their music comes from.Its fine to like that and I suppose its fine to do it if the party being taken from doesnt really care(And I suppose theres a grand irony in a band that became notorious for stealing music to have their music stolen years down the line). But I dont think its unreasonable to say they riff incredibly hard on Zeppelin.
I think there are always exceptions to the norm, and within those exceptions, there will always be personal preferences as the ones you stated above. However, as a whole, there is a reason why rock music is not as popular anymore. The general listening audience does not think the current rock music catalog is good otherwise labels, production companies and radio stations would find a way to push them through. Again, that is not to say, that you can't find pleasure in those bands you listed above. Times are just different. Music has changed.
This post is to great, but wasted on that guy. What a loon.
Parquet Courts were on Ellen this week, idk what to tell you.
Tame Impala is on interscope. The War on Drugs are on Atlantic. Vampire Weekend and Artic Monkeys are about to drop huge releases on Columbia and Domino within months of each other (fingers crossed). Labels are still buying into new acts but their importance has lessened. Adele and King Krule are both on XL and both have gained from it.
The real dead zone is radio, because pop has moved on.
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In my opinion, the bands of today are nowhere near the level of popularity with bands such as Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, Poison, Guns & Roses and Queen just to name a few but if some people actually think they are I can't deny them opinion.
As for those artists you listed, I can't say much about them one way or the other. I have never heard of them. I could just be out the loop.
Edit: I just watched the Ellen clip. Music is definitely based on preference but god that was awful. Doesn't even hold a candle to someone like Queen. This is why rock is not as popular as it once way.
You're talking about this...
vs: this?
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OP
OP
