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Rockstar employees were working "100 hour weeks" for RDR 2 [UPDATE: Rockstar's response]
- Thread starter Odesu
- Start date
I am super excited to play RDR2 and have it preordered but do not wish to support these kinds of practices. What am I supposed to do? Is everyone in this thread who doesnt support crunch like this abstaining from buying this or any other Rocksrar game? Not being critical just genuinely interested to know.
Yeah, agreed, I think the industry takes advantage of young engineer's willingness to work on 'passion projects.' I get how the market supports it, but I just think its wrong. Especially companies like Rockstar that have a very socially progressive mission, I think it's insane that they have these brutal hours during crunch.
I wish that more young engineers would try out the rest of the industry, where the work is still very fulfilling -- even working on a boring B2B SaaS project -- and the abuse to your life is much less.
So what? Are they able to buy extra hours in the week for sleep and family time with their money?
Buying used is usually the compromise people do in this situation. You get to play the game but you don't add a sale to the publisher.
Yeah 100 hours is an obscene high where noone is focused to work 100 hours sounds odd. Also does his use of passion as if those "passionate" people aren't looked at more favourably than those people that aren't as "passionate".
lol "no one was forced to"
one of the responsibility of managers is to set examples so employees don't feel pressured to overwork and take care of themselves
one of the responsibility of managers is to set examples so employees don't feel pressured to overwork and take care of themselves
You are still a metric in Rockstar's numbers. Another person to show as a DaU, someone to push microtransactions at. Complete disengagement is best.
Didn't some employees sue Rockstar after making RDR1? I remember there was some uproar about the working conditions during the making of that game.
Exactly so why are they working 100 hour weeks? It'd be one thing if Rockstar was some one off developer but there's enough evidence that this is a widespread issue.
100 hour weeks ain't good for noone. I'm pretty sure plenty of minimum wage jobs don't encourage that nonsense. At least in the UK they don't. You'll find some egregious shit but that's far from the norm.
The Kotaku article (published literally minutes ago) touches on it, yeah.
Not sure about a lawsuit, though.
do you think anyone making 6 figures is a super rich person?
"You're not "forced", you'll just be looked upon as not being a team player - not a good look! - and thus be given shitty stuff to work on until you leave or we find a reason to replace you. BUT WE'RE NOT FORCING YOU TO WORK 100 HOURS A WEEK!!"
That's probably not true, and even if it is, it doesn't matter.
Videogame sector pays about around 20% less than comparable positions, and 'crunch' definitely is not reserved for just senior developers... It's probably more likely in junior developers who are making between $70,000-$90,000. And it doesn't matter.
Plus, insane work schedules don't improve projects. They make worse projects, they lead to bugs, they lead to lost revenue. Any project made with a 100-hour work week, which is completely insane, can be made with a 60-hour work week, or ideally, with a 40 hour work week. You'll make better software, and your company will make more money. It's completely unjustifiable.
But, I kinda suspect that Houser is bragging here about a 100 hour work week and that it's not nearly close to that ,but he wants to make it seem like it is to brag about his project. Steve Jobs used to do that and it's become a trend among software entrepenuers. At least, I hope he is.
*edit*
Going on GlassDoor, Rockstar seems squarely in the average for pay here, not above and beyond.
- Software Engineer, salary range is $71,000 - $98,000
- Programmer is $58k - 74k.
- Game programmer, $74k-81k
- Game designer is listed at $97k.
- Associate game designer $48-$52k
- Senior Level designer $53-$58k
- Game Developer $38k-$63k
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lol how stupid is dan houser to have actually said "100-hour weeks" and then to follow up with a statement like that
You gotta give Jason though, it's so obvious he's not buying the response he got but he's reporting it accurately nonetheless like a pro.
Thankfully I doubt this will make nobody but the most apologetic fans of Rockstar forget about this issue.
Thankfully I doubt this will make nobody but the most apologetic fans of Rockstar forget about this issue.
At least in the US, most of the people working those hours are salaried employees and are exempt from overtime pay.
Those employees get bonuses after ship usually, but they still have to be working there and not be burnt out and quit. Also bonuses usually take a huge hit from taxes, so you never get what your time and effort is really worth, compared to income that can be taxed at the capital gains rate.
The best way is to just publicly help support and spread the word about unionization in the industry. Because we need one desperately.
How do they get anything done? My mind checks out and my husk remains in my seat barley functional after lunch. They get 5 hour of production time from me and 3 hours of soulless vessel a day.
I couldn't imagine what working 100 hours in a week would be like.
I couldn't imagine what working 100 hours in a week would be like.
Rockstar games, of all AAA game studios out there, can easily afford to double the developers so they can split the work tasks into proper time shifts for every employee, or keep the same number and take their time on developing the game, I mean, they can get away by launching it till next year anyways since they still keep making money thanks to GTA V... 100+ hour long work weeks are insane. You have to be completely devoted and passionate about your work in order to accept 100 + hour work week journeys. Even though artists are mentally prepared to that because they all love what they do, there's simply no excuse to make them work for that long.
Years ago, I wanted to pursue a career on the game industry. I actually studied/practiced ZBrush and Maya for a couple years since I sorted wanted to be a game character modeller... but starting by the fact that is insanely difficult to get hired by a studio on the first place, I've also read some horror stories about the work environment from people who already was working on the industry, telling the amount of software you have to literally master in order to at least get a decent paycheck. ZBrush, Maya, Cinema 4D, 3DS, Max, Marvelous Designer, Photoshop, Mari, Unreal Engine, etc, etc, etc. I simply didn't had the budget to afford and learn all of that so I've got very discouraged and it's when I unfortunately stopped pursuing that dream. And all of that was back in 2013! I cannot imagine how the requirements must be nowadays, it must be 10x worse! Anyways, my absolute respect to all of those people at R* or any other developer on the industry that despite all the obstacles, they keept pursuing their dream of working on the industry and that despite the unacceptable amounts of crunch time, they still go to work every single day.
Years ago, I wanted to pursue a career on the game industry. I actually studied/practiced ZBrush and Maya for a couple years since I sorted wanted to be a game character modeller... but starting by the fact that is insanely difficult to get hired by a studio on the first place, I've also read some horror stories about the work environment from people who already was working on the industry, telling the amount of software you have to literally master in order to at least get a decent paycheck. ZBrush, Maya, Cinema 4D, 3DS, Max, Marvelous Designer, Photoshop, Mari, Unreal Engine, etc, etc, etc. I simply didn't had the budget to afford and learn all of that so I've got very discouraged and it's when I unfortunately stopped pursuing that dream. And all of that was back in 2013! I cannot imagine how the requirements must be nowadays, it must be 10x worse! Anyways, my absolute respect to all of those people at R* or any other developer on the industry that despite all the obstacles, they keept pursuing their dream of working on the industry and that despite the unacceptable amounts of crunch time, they still go to work every single day.
Not going to lie. This is the type of stuff that is making me second guess my career choice and go from computer programmer to business analyst.
That's not how game development works or even any type of software development. You can't simply throw more people at a problem or project and expect it to get fixed faster. In fact, adding more people can actually make it take longer. So hiring enough staff isn't the problem at all.
This is also not how game development works. You don't have people working in shifts. You have people assigned to specific tasks or areas and then you have people dependent on those areas. You can't hand off the work to someone else to complete while you go home. That task is on you and people need you to complete your work so they can complete their work a lot of the time.
Often people making 6 figures in game dev also live in expensive areas which offsets those 6 figures so it doesn't mean they're making a ton of money after you factor in the cost of living.
This is one of the reasons why I don't want to support this publisher. They're being rewarded to pushing their employees to extremes.
Well said, you cannot imagine any software engineer working in the military, space or theorical science sector being mistreated like this.
Remember people, when you're working 40 hours you aren't working hard.
Don't forget their travel. I seriously doubt many of them live right next to the studio or in it. When we did crunch at Gazillion many of the employees worked an hour or two commute away on top of a 14-hour day.
For the record I was not one of them and I loved working as many hours as I possibly could because I really enjoyed what I did and never saw it as work.
Edit: Gaz also made up for crunch time with things like 3 day weekends, paid non-mandatory work cookouts and going to the movies as a group. Additionally I clocked in so many hours per week that people above me would constantly check in on me to enforce the ideal that I was working TOO much and they didn't want me to burn myself out, but not everybody had the same love for what we did as I did and that's ok. For those folks 14+ hour a day weeks may have seemed hellish and I don't wish anyone to be tortured anywhere.
For the record I was not one of them and I loved working as many hours as I possibly could because I really enjoyed what I did and never saw it as work.
Edit: Gaz also made up for crunch time with things like 3 day weekends, paid non-mandatory work cookouts and going to the movies as a group. Additionally I clocked in so many hours per week that people above me would constantly check in on me to enforce the ideal that I was working TOO much and they didn't want me to burn myself out, but not everybody had the same love for what we did as I did and that's ok. For those folks 14+ hour a day weeks may have seemed hellish and I don't wish anyone to be tortured anywhere.
Boycotting anything that was made from greedy companies would require us to give up 80% of everything we own, it's not feasible. Your comment about giving everything up is not feasible in a world that relies on all the technology we have, and giving up all entertainment that let's us relax after a long day.
That's the point. We can't just abandon technology that's ingrained into our everyday lives just because they're made by companies with greedy and harmful work ethics, it would require us to give up almost everything we have. Just how I think unchecked capitalism is bad, but I'm not gonna stop buying things and make my life miserable over it.
You all missed my point entirely about Mercedes. I was not even talking about Rockstar, the discussion I was replying to was about whether or not people in general NEED to work 100 hours. My point was if someone wants to drive expensive cars, etc, the their lifestyle MIGHT require them to put in extra hours...which is logical.
You can't do this in game dev or even software development. That's not how this works. Throwing more people at a problem in software development doesn't make things go faster.
Personally I finally escape contract hell after doing it for 7 years and have my first full-time position now. even the hr rep in charge of my hiring case was like "holy shit, you should've been hired a long time ago".
Research shows pretty definitively that the more weekly hours your employees work past 40, the less their overall productivity output will be (and that's taking into account the extra hours being worked). For 60 hour weeks your employees will only be outputting 2/3rds of what they normally would be doing at 40 hour weeks. The effect only grows more pronounced as you start to go beyond that, so you can imagine the hit you'll take at 80 or 100 hours. Plus in professions like programming, mistakes and errors are far more significant problems than general office workers making typos in internal documents.
It's not just a cruel business practice, it's an objectively irrational management strategy.
It's not just a cruel business practice, it's an objectively irrational management strategy.
Ugh this is gross. Unfortunately I just can't see a solution? Maybe hire double the amount of employees is the only one I can throw out there.
Even suggesting paying overtime etc doesn't work as the employees simply shouldn't be working these hours in the first place.
Not nice to hear this stuff, I feel bad for them
Even suggesting paying overtime etc doesn't work as the employees simply shouldn't be working these hours in the first place.
Not nice to hear this stuff, I feel bad for them
I don't really get where the car thing comes tbh. Where do you get the impression that these people working 100 hours are driving mercedes.
Unfortunately, most of the time below the line developers are contract employees, so after working so many hours on a game this size, they are out the door.
I want there to be unionization for developers, but the publishers won't budge.
I want there to be unionization for developers, but the publishers won't budge.
As long as it was not mandatory and they were compensated accordingly, then I don't see the problem with it. But we all know that they were pressured during the crunch. I'm thinking some of that 100 hours a week has to be exaggerated.
If they are at rock star they are at the top. The money the developers are paid there will be top of the industry.
You Guys can try to single out rockstar but it's something that happens in every single Industry when you are at the top. Every single one. What do you think happens to teachers when it gets close to the time they have inspections coming up? Should we boycott schools aswell?
The solution isn't going to come from within the industry. Unions need to enter the workplace, overtime laws need to change, and worker attitudes need to change. Plenty of other sectors that produce software need these changes also but it seems games in particular is prone to burnout explicitly because of how bad the crunch is, and the churn of skilled, senior employees has got to contribute somewhat to the neverending cycle.
The point was about if they can go get another job. If you make 100k and drive an expensive car replacing your income is more difficult meaning it might not be so easy to just quit a job where you have to work so many hours and find something else.
Getting paid 6 figures means someone should work 100 hours per week?
It's not okay in those other industries. It's not okay in the video game industry. Full stop.
Sweet shit. I'd have died.
I work in the game industry, if I work more than 50 hours in a week I'm absolutely dead. I have not ever had crunch this severe so far in my 5 years, I hope its a dying practice.
I work in the game industry, if I work more than 50 hours in a week I'm absolutely dead. I have not ever had crunch this severe so far in my 5 years, I hope its a dying practice.
Fair enough on both points (and mostly agreed). That said, I think that good, strong ownership and management has a responsibility to run their businesses ethically and to treat their employees respectfully regardless of the systems they are operating in. I think that too often the narrative can leave out ownership and management, by blaming the system (which isn't to say it isn't to blame too, and which isn't to say I don't think things will change until unionization). Yes, the system which places shareholders' interests, who often know little of the industry or how games are made, let alone the employees' personal struggles, above the people who make the things which make their shares worth anything at all, is thoroughly fucked. And in a case like Rockstar, we're likely talking difference of "making lots of money" vs "making more money." But, at the end of the day, ownership and management have somehow either been complicit in inflating fiscal expectations to a point where shareholders won't be happy unless measures like this or taken, are themselves not happy unless they can do the same or have not been able to share a vision for their company as a leader in making videogames as an art, making videogames as a business and making videogames as a healthy life.
ok and people also have to work 100 hours just to get by...which is what?
