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RagdollRhino

Banned
Oct 10, 2018
950
It's very easy not to order from Amazon. There are plenty of other retailers, both online and offline, though it may not be as "convenient" as some are accustomed to.

While you are not wrong about clothes, food, etc. being delivered by terrible work conditions as well, multiple battles can be fought at once, and equating a video game company - a company that creates optional, consumable media purely for the sake of profit - to food and clothes, which are actually necessary, is a bit loose.

The necessity part shouldn't have been my main point, I should have given more optional examples to fall in line. But even though everyone knows about Amazon, how much did that revelation hurt their sale really? RDR2 will sell bonkers regardless of how much traction this gets, even if every single gamer is fed info about these conditions, video footage, whatever, the vast majority doesn't care enough to do anything about it. They moan a bit just to make themselves feel better but on day one they'll be playing.
 

jblanco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,489
I hope you haven't played any AAA games since 2010, because the same complaints about the same studio were made back then, and you'll notice the absence of AAA games on this list of games made without crunch. You'll also be denying them their royalty bonus, after they've already done the crunch.

That is why I am in a dilema. What do you suggest can we do as consumers?

Maybe a game can finally be the drop that spills the jar. And yes, the devs would suffer the consequences of no royalties but hopefully it would send a message to the industry. I assume 90% or more of the people who will buy RDR2 do not care though. Hell, they may not even be aware of the crunch practices.
 

Shadout

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,806
Didn't Amazon recently increase the minimum wage across the board and stated they'll lobby congress to raise the federal minimum wage across the board? That's what talking about issues does folks. Is it good enough? Probably not, so keep talking about their bs ey?
Yeah, talk about it. Show companies like Rockstar that you dont like it. Bad PR sometimes changes things.
Honestly I dont think people who really want this game should choose not to buy it, as a protest. In all likelihood, you are inflicting a bigger "loss" on yourself (not getting something you want) than on Rockstar with your individual action. And you money will likely just go to some other crappy company (within or outside gaming).
"Voting with your wallet" is mostly a lousy , fake option created by those who want the current system to never change - since they can always claim they are merely delivering what customers want, no matter how unethical or how harmful it might be.
Instead, make sure to actually vote for someone who seems to genuinely care about better labor laws - as hard as they might be to find. And join unions if you at all have the choice, no matter which profession you work in. In the long run, stronger unions in some sectors, might spill over to others. And yeah, complain as much as possible.
 
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Karppuuna

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
332
We're 50 pages into this shit, there's no excuse at this point for the mods to not immediately warn lazy drive by posts like this.

Video Game companies truly don't need to spend money on PR, they'll always have legions of sycophants lining up to carry their water for free.

I'm not here to defend anybody, i'm just saying that if you don't know the current facts, hold your judgement. I'm tired that so many people in the internet are judging others, even if they don't know the facts!
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
Why are you telling me that, where did I suggest any of that? Was it when I said to keep raising a stink about their bs?

I was just adding to your point, not directing it at you personally. Apologies for that.

The necessity part shouldn't have been my main point, I should have given more optional examples to fall in line. But even though everyone knows about Amazon, how much did that revelation hurt their sale really? RDR2 will sell bonkers regardless of how much traction this gets, even if every single gamer is fed info about these conditions, video footage, whatever, the vast majority doesn't care enough to do anything about it. They moan a bit just to make themselves feel better but on day one they'll be playing.

The game will sell well, no doubt about it. There are many, many people who lack empathy. You can choose not to be one of those people, however.
 

Justified

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,021
Atlanta
Google says "nurses salary" is $67,490 from 2015. Here is the final Game Developer magazine salary survey from 2014 (the magazine closed down). Average programmer salary in the US was $93,251 and 77% received additional compensation averaging to $16,534 (bonuses, stocks, profit sharing, 401K matching, etc.) So yeah, I'd say almost $110K is more than $67K.

I would say those salaries arent comparable unless you took averages from lets say, just San Francisco. Most Game developers in the US are in super high cost of living cities, so their salaries (while still crappy for where they are living) is much higher than the average nurse across the country
 

Gwarm

Member
Nov 13, 2017
2,153
Nurses in San Francisco can make anywhere from $60-75/hr and are entitled to overtime pay. It's a pretty decent got, and some people fly in from out of state to work during the week.
 

Rapscallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,792
Creating a culture in which people are "encouraged to work more than their allotted time is nearly as toxic as forcing them to work overtime. This is true for any industry, but especially within the gaming community.

The response makes me feel as if that's the case at Rockstar. People aren't forced, but senior level staff "passionately" working on projects through the night creates expectations for others to follow suit.

Life cannot and should not be mostly labor.
 

브라이언

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,169
Why are we comparing emergency service workers to a game developer? What in the actual...

I can't even fathom working 80 hours a week. Highly respect people that need to (aka lack of doctors, nurses) but for a game developer, seriously? I mean Rockstar needs to have proper hours put in place. To brag about it is disgusting.
 

Shadout

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,806
I had really prefer if doctors and nurses do not work anywhere close to 100 hours a week, considering their work is slightly more important, and fatal, than whatever Rockstar is doing.

There just aren't any good reason why anyone should work that much per week for any substantial stretch of time.
 

Subxero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
611
United States
80+ hour work weeks are not limited to software comapnies or high salaried jobs. Its not something I would imagine anyone wants to do and I dont think they should have to. A lot of people don't have the ability to make that choice so they do what they have to survive.

I worked in managment in retail. It was common and expected for me to work 80+ hour weeks from mid October to after inventory in January. Some times working close through off hours stock when we were getting multiple trucks a day. The most hours I recall working was 96 hours in a week. I absolutely did not enjoy it but I had to do it. I also didn't make what I felt was fair for what all did. My last year there I made about 21k.

I'm so glad to not be in retail and I dont think I could invest that much time of my life to a company again. I learned really quuckly that non of them give a shit about their employees or their wellbeing. Its all about sqeezing as much out of them as possible for more profits.
 
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nDesh

The Three Eyed Raven
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,072
That is why I am in a dilema. What do you suggest can we do as consumers?

Maybe a game can finally be the drop that spills the jar. And yes, the devs would suffer the consequences of no royalties but hopefully it would send a message to the industry. I assume 90% or more of the people who will buy RDR2 do not care though. Hell, they may not even be aware of the crunch practices.
90%? 99% I would say, I sincerely think that outside of ERA people barely gives a shit about this.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
So anyone who buys this game lacks empathy?

Not necessarily, but it takes a special kind of person to say "Oh well, don't care!" when reading these stories and then lining up at Gamestop for the midnight release. There are so many better things to do with your life that don't involve supporting terrible business practices.
 

LinLeigh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
193
I think projects like that often suffers with feature creep and keep adding more stuf along the way. Combining it with "reinventing the wheel" almost every project have, it's very hard to project of needed workhours. Of course it should be management role to step in and say enough is enough. Imagine how many hours was spent to implement horse testicle shrinking so R* could get all those articles paising them for unparallel attention to detail. That was more important than wellbeing of their employees.

I actually think feature creep is more likely when people are overworked. It is so easy to put more on your plate when you are so busy you don't have time to do all your tasks.

I have a few difficult deadlines coming up and I'm still waiting on some stuff I need.

Did I spend my day preparing for the stuff so I can immediately continue once I receive it? Or did I spend my day finding issues and creative solutions in area's that have next to nothing to do with my deadlines but will probably create extra work for me?

The latter ofc
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,006
Not necessarily, but it takes a special kind of person to say "Oh well, don't care!" when reading these stories and then lining up at Gamestop for the midnight release. There are so many better things to do with your life that don't involve supporting terrible business practices.
It's ironic that you mention GameStop, considering the millions their execs make and how little their workers make. The execs even started burning all of GameStop's cash on share buybacks years ago, in an effort to prop up the share price and with it their own stock options and grants. They also gave themselves share grants at $20 and had it in writing that if the stock was below $20, they'd be paid the difference in cash. In other words, they'd win if the stock went up, and they'd win if it didn't.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
It's ironic that you mention GameStop, considering the millions their execs make and how little their workers make. The execs even started burning all of GameStop's cash on share buybacks years ago, in an effort to prop up the share price and with it their own stock options and grants. They also gave themselves share grants at $20 and had it in writing that if the stock was below $20, they'd be paid the difference in cash. In other words, they'd win if the stock went up, and they'd win if it didn't.

I was an ASM/SM for nearly a decade. I mentioned them for a reason. :P
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
Not necessarily, but it takes a special kind of person to say "Oh well, don't care!" when reading these stories and then lining up at Gamestop for the midnight release. There are so many better things to do with your life that don't involve supporting terrible business practices.

Most people – you included I'd wager – have no idea the conditions and grind that people suffer under for the vast majority of the products we buy.

On the full scale of exploitation, this controversy isn't even at the halfway point.

Now, it's shitty and I agree it needs to change but boycotting the product will accomplish absolutely nothing and might actually be detrimental to the very people you claim to care about.

By contrast, becoming politically active, informed and voting for those who support fair labor practices and the promotion of unions can actually do a great deal to temper this kind of nonsense if not outright nullify it.

And to be clear, I respect your decision not to buy this game but I find it incredibly offensive that you would assert that those of us who choose to lack empathy, especially when I have no doubt that you and the rest of the people in here asserting this boycotting argument readily frequent establishments and purchase products that support far worse labor practices than this.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
Most people – you included I'd wager – have no idea the conditions and grind that people suffer under for the vast majority of the products we buy.

On the full scale of exploitation, this controversy isn't even at the halfway point.

Now, it's shitty and I agree it needs to change but boycotting the product will accomplish absolutely nothing and might actually be detrimental to the very people you claim to care about.

By contrast, becoming politically active, informed and voting for those who support fair labor practices and the promotion of unions can actually do a great deal to temper this kind of nonsense if not outright nullify it.

And to be clear, I respect your decision not to buy this game but I find it incredibly offensive that you would assert that those of us who choose to lack empathy, especially when I have no doubt that you and the rest of the people in here asserting this boycotting argument readily frequent establishments and purchase products that support far worse labor practices than this.

There is always something worse, I agree. The game industry is completely optional and unnecessary outside of demand for entertainment and escapism, and it means very little in the grand scheme of the world. Your wager would come up short, however, as you and I both know that most products are manufactured without a thought put towards the well-being of workers. That obviously goes beyond the US and other industries as well.

Boycotting the product may mean very little to Rockstar and the rest of upper management, but to me personally, I know I will not be contributing money towards a company in which those practices are not only common, but defended. That alone is worth it to me, and I do what I can to stay involved in terms of voting opportunities to suppress these ideologies at a local level, if possible.

I mean no offense, and in the past year or so I have tried my absolute best to avoid more "problematic" establishments, if that makes any sense. I don't purchase from Amazon or Wal-Mart, but plenty of my friends do. I try and buy locally as much as possible, and in truth many of those local businesses could also treat their employees like shit. However, putting your mind to people first, focusing on that possibility of breaking habits of convenience, isn't something that occurs overnight. It takes time to inform yourself and those around you regarding practices that are deemed (such as this case) as inhumane, and it will take even more work for the majority of people to be able to walk away from products and companies like this.

Again, you personally may have empathy towards those employees, and I don't doubt that, but that has to be set aside to purchase a piece of entertainment that will inevitably only make CEOs and shareholders happy, especially given the conditions it was created in. There are so many other wonderful pieces of entertainment and means of escapism that exist, avoiding one like this isn't that difficult of a decision to make.
 

bad poster

Banned
Jan 6, 2018
428
Everybody has different circumstances, whether the person is doing something to make it happen is based on alot of different things, and right now their top priority might be keeping a roof over their head.

by this i didn't mean improving their own situation, i mean not treating the way things are now as some sort of natural order that can never possibly be altered.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
Even the venerable Mad Magazine are getting in on the action.
dpvulbdxcaazmf2.jpgla8li0j.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/MADMagazine/photos/a.473009419386172/2037387556281676/?type=3&permPage=1
 

Łazy

Member
Nov 1, 2017
5,249
I've worked 16-18 hours for days at a time sometimes to hit deadlines.

It's not nice but the pay is fucking good and that makes up for it at the end of the day.

That's why I'm saying without knowing what their pay is, and the working conditions usually, 100 hours doesn't mean much.

Working like that bought me my house.
Yeah, money makes up for everything.

...
 

Olaf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,419
It's weird to hear these stories about being pressured to work. I spent a year in the army more or less against my will. I would have never done it if I wasn't forced to do it by law. But somehow doing work 100 hours a week still sounds worse.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,775
It's definitely not damage control at all.

Uh why would developers try and damage control a situation they are the victims of? Are we just gonna brush everything not fitting the current narrative off as "lies" or "damage control"? Rockstar is a gigantic company, its perfectly feasible that not all workers had the same experience.
 

Al3x1s

Banned
Nov 13, 2017
2,824
Greece
Uh why would developers try and damage control a situation they are the victims of?
Not saying this is what it is as it's obvious different positions and ranks will have different experiences within the same studio (so people saying "ah didn't happen to me, R rocks" don't really prove anything anyway) but, the reason for the damage control would be the same reason the crunch wasn't even spoken of before someone's slip of the tongue. To protect their job and wage. I'm supposed to get 2 days off a week at work, that rarely happens but the official schedule that is sent in says that's the case, if the relevant government body decided to check on the company and see that I'm there working when I'm not supposed to, the company would get fined and I'd be the cause for it, so at times they heard there's gonna be a check they informed me and I temporarily left the premises, I complied because I need my job, shitty as it may be.

Still, whether there was crazy crunch or not, the backlash was for such crunch everywhere, not just because R reportedly did it, whether it's a mistaken case or not, there should always be vocal backlash at any hint of such work practices and ethics until they are eliminated (so, forever I guess).
 
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