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kaishek

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,144
Texas
And sales will show that no one care about working condition.

the idea of consumer-led activism is ridiculous and in the end, usually ineffective.

what we can do is morally and materially help in their unionization efforts, vote for the right people, and let them fight for their own working conditions without us needing to starve their employer of revenue

then maybe one day they can just seize the whole company for themselves *sighs wistfully*
 

Wiped

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,096
Over 7 days that's 14 hours per day, which isn't too insane.

How much are their salaries? Do they get overtime during crunch? A nice bonus when the game inevitably gets 99 on MC? Good holidays during normal workload times?

You can't really judge what this means without any of that info.

14 hours per day for 7 days straight isn't insane? What are you on?

The working week in the UK is set at 40 hours and it's illegal to do a certain number of days in a row. If that's unpaid overtime, that's illegal too but even if it's paid it busts way past legal limits.
 

Kenstar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,887
Earth
wake up at 6am, leave 6:30 to get to work at 8am
leave work at 11pm (assuming they dont count that lunch hour) and get home at 11:30
do everything that needs to be done for the day in an hour and a half to get to sleep by 1am because you kinda need your 5 hours of sleep if you're out 17 hours a day

and that's just monday-fri, you still gotta go in sat and sunday

no thanks
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
5,710
They should be unionized, OT should be mandatory during crunch time, with double and premium rates after 35 hours, and sick time (with note) should be permitted.
 

Aswitch

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,118
Los Angeles, CA
did you miss the entire rockstar spouse controversy that occurred 8 years ago at the same studio working on the previous red dead title?

We literally do know. Former employees are literally describing the environment. Even if they did it willingly and you paid them triple their usual rate, you are still horrible for asking someone to work 100 hour weeks. That will fuck up anyone.

Ok wasn't aware of these. If they're forced to do this then yeah that sucks. I feel like there has to be some type of other way they are compensating for this outside of pay. Like a huge amount of paid time off after the game's out or something. Otherwise than yeah I'm amazed how they still stay with it. Maybe just the reputation of rockstar games themselves.
 

spad3

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,122
California
11 pages in and not a single "it be like that sometimes" post. Proud of you era. yall great people.

Rockstar needs to work on their employee incentives and benefits. Everyone should get like 200hrs of PTO after something like that.
 

daybreak

Member
Feb 28, 2018
2,415
Inhumane working conditions. The industry as a whole needs change in the United States.
 
Last edited:

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,494
I agree, a lot of people don't mind working these hours as long as they're being compensated properly for it. That's something we don't know. We also don't know if this has been just a suggestion from the rockstar staff to work overtime if they can. Maybe they had the option to? They also could just be doing it on their own accord saying that they'll be compensated for it, if you do. I know a lot of folks that would do so if they're allowed to.

I think we should see all facets of the story before jumping to conclusion that Rockstar is so horrible for this.

Just because they "don't mind" doesn't mean it's healthy or actually worth it. And on an individual level, just because some of the devs don't mind doesn't mean that it's ok to enforce/promote crunch if there are other devs that do mind.

Companies shouldn't be able to exploit workers even if some of the workers say it's fine.
 

loquaciousJenny

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,457
Rockstar is terrible and their "success" with the previous GTA is more than enough incentive for me to never touch one of their games again
 

Delriach

Combat Designer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
930
Chicago
Ok wasn't aware of these. If they're forced to do this then yeah that sucks. I feel like there has to be some type of other way they are compensating for this outside of pay. Like a huge amount of paid time off after the game's out or something. Otherwise than yeah I'm amazed how they still stay with it. Maybe just the reputation of rockstar games themselves.

My compensation after my contract was done was "maybe we'll call you back in 3 months, assuming there is work to be done during that time. If not, please be excited for our call at a later time".

I know people who have been going through the grind of a 9 month on and MAYBE 3 months off at a AAA studio for nearly 10 years. I don't know why they do it, personally. I think some of it has to do with the idea of prestige for working for a AAA studio. After my contract was up at my first job I frantically found another job and never thought about going back to the other place again.
 

Aswitch

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,118
Los Angeles, CA
You know what is also acceptable and less damaging? Proper management of a project so that crunch isn't required.

To play devil's advocate here. I would argue that there's things\variables that aren't able to really be seen that may take a long time to resolve (resolving bugs that end up creating other bugs etc.). I think crunch is pretty unavoidable making video games specifically in respect to those unknown variables which more than likely will always happen.
 

no1

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Apr 27, 2018
954
I mean if it wasn't forced then I sorta applaud them for working so hard on it but they really don't need to push it at 100h weeks, really they could do just 70 at most and delay the game.
 

Deleted member 15311

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,088
This is wrong on so many levels and not good at all to the final product. We have crunch time too, and i seriously went above 14 hours/day on two consecutive weeks, but that's so wrong and so many mistakes happen.
 

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
I pulled 100+ hour weeks at my previous job and was tied to my phone for every hour I wasn't working.

It was pure hell and affects every aspect of your life: physical health, mental health, social life. You sleep way worse, eat way worse, exercise very little, socialize basically never. When you work that much, there is no "off" switch, even during the hours where you aren't working. It's simply not enough time to decompress and recharge. It feels like you're working 24 hours a day.

I understand misery is relative and that, from an absolute standpoint, there are far worse things in the world, but it is a soul-crushing feeling to get a new batch of emergency e-mails at 7pm, running off of 4 hours of sleep and some Subway or McDonald's, and then have to respond negatively to the usual "Home for dinner?" text from your spouse. The pointlessness of it all really comes crashing down on you in those little moments.
 

Nothing Loud

Literally Cinderella
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,975
Over 7 days that's 14 hours per day, which isn't too insane.

How much are their salaries? Do they get overtime during crunch? A nice bonus when the game inevitably gets 99 on MC? Good holidays during normal workload times?

You can't really judge what this means without any of that info.

14 hours of work per day 7 days a week is unethical no matter what pay you have. I even hate that doctors do that shit. And it doesn't make you more productive, that's been proven in labor studies. Your position doesn't have a leg to stand on. That setup is inexcusable except for people like Americans accustomed to poor labor rights who aren't familiar with how business is done in the rest of the western developed world that does have real labor rights.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
Ok wasn't aware of these. If they're forced to do this then yeah that sucks. I feel like there has to be some type of other way they are compensating for this outside of pay. Like a huge amount of paid time off after the game's out or something. Otherwise than yeah I'm amazed how they still stay with it. Maybe just the reputation of rockstar games themselves.

A huge amount of bonuses for the CEOs, maybe.
 

Vuze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,186
Are people who say this is okay or "lol work somewhere else then" actually employed or...?
 

Sushigod7

Member
Oct 26, 2017
119
What I'm saying is you can just quit and work for another company that suits your lifestyle better. Working for the best of the best comes at a price

How many times have you quit your job as an adult with bills and obligations to go find another job that fits your life syle better? Shit isn't easy no matter how many youtube ads you've watched saying "follow your dreams" its BS. Employers treating employees with respect seems like a no brainer nobody should be expected to work 100hr weeks.
 

Ometeotl

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
995
User Warned: Hostility + personal attacks against another member
Over 7 days that's 14 hours per day, which isn't too insane.

How much are their salaries? Do they get overtime during crunch? A nice bonus when the game inevitably gets 99 on MC? Good holidays during normal workload times?

You can't really judge what this means without any of that info.

You can go fuck the absolute off, you stupid piece of human trash.
 

Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
bragging about 100+ hour work weeks, this game will also have microtransactions up the ass like GTA5, disgusting that Rockstar is bragging about this
 

Mhj

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
879
To play devil's advocate here. I would argue that there's things\variables that aren't able to really be seen that may take a long time to resolve (resolving bugs that end up creating other bugs etc.). I think crunch is pretty unavoidable making video games specifically in respect to those unknown variables which more than likely will always happen.

Game development isn't some special niche in project and/or software management. Its simply part of the culture to abuse (often) young persons who don't know better. Because everyone is doing it right?
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,900
Other things to consider:

  • They brag about how they're doing 100 hour weeks, for how long? Last month? 4 months? The entire milestone? The entire 500+ people team?
  • If 100 hour weeks is the exception, then what is the norm? 80 hour weeks? 60? It sure as fuck isn't 40, this stuff is gradual. I wouldn't be surprised if 70/80 hour weeks was the average during the span of production
  • Speaking of the production span, for how long has this been going on? This is about a 5 year dev cycle, how many employees have come and gone though this? How many have quit because of it? Do you think its acceptable to miss you entire kids high school experience because you are at work 12 hours a day, 6 to 7 days a week?

Another thing, if you think these employees are compensated well enough ... then thats naive. Dan Houser is certainly compensated well enough, but the QA thats surely doing 24 hour shifts is probably making very little and if and when the game sells 50 million copies dont think for one second that the team becomes financially wealthy, thats not how it works.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Ok wasn't aware of these. If they're forced to do this then yeah that sucks. I feel like there has to be some type of other way they are compensating for this outside of pay. Like a huge amount of paid time off after the game's out or something. Otherwise than yeah I'm amazed how they still stay with it. Maybe just the reputation of rockstar games themselves.
There's a dev on this page explaining why they stay.

Pretty much today's discussion on Twitter.

 

pizoxuat

Member
Jan 12, 2018
1,458
After a certain point you are creating more bugs than you are fixing, and individual devs are notoriously bad at figuring out what that point is. The 40 hour work week exists for a reason.
 

Aprikurt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,775
Don't get too busy making a living to make a life.

I'm guessing there's some there will be quite willing to work all the hours god sends. I guarantee you there's plenty that won't.
 

Mhj

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
879
And in the end they will make tons of money off the backs of mentally broken employees who likely reduced their lives by at least a couple of years in pure stress. But it's all good when you finally boot up the game and behold the well directed intro. That is, until you stumble across the inevitable problems with a Big Bang launch, then it's all on the developers. Lazy devs.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,800

Just got off work and this has been stewing in my head all day. Putting some thoughts out there.

Performance reviews as mentioned were really the worst. There was always a jokey culture around the department of people being fired for not doing overtime, but bosses would always try and frame it as a joke and not reality despite names cropping up of people who HAD been fired for it. I could even look up the previous bug numbers for this person and see that they were pulling just as much as anyone else during our normal contracted hours.

I always felt anxious about my job before a review, sweating like fuck in the review, and still feeling shook after the review. I didn't want to lose the job, I loved working it when things were normal hours (I started there after a big stretch had been finished, so things were normal hours while we awaited new content and basically goofed around to find bugs in old content), we got unprecedented freedom to explore documentation, projects going on around the place, work with dev tools from any department in spare time to make our own stuff and present it, but the insane hours left almost no time for this unless you never left the office.

I had to quit my regular exercise regimen outside of the office when expected overtime became a natural reality (maybe 3 or 4 weeks into the job) because I just didn't have the time, focus or energy for it. After that, we never had a quiet period again, and I never got back into it while there. Just zero time and energy. I'd get bad headaches and nosebleeds at the office quite a lot, probably from staring at the same 3 monitors all day. Just had to stuff my nose full of toilet paper and deal with it, working through it all. Also began cutting corners in my personal time due to needing to catch sleep, like showering at work instead of home, like many other staff. Lots of people in the studio caught veruccas due to some asshat having them and spreading them around. I've still got mine, and its been years now. Treatment hasn't helped there, but there's a funny little thing for you that also gets to me.

Overtime was paid for anyone on a temporary contract (me), time and a half, but anyone on a permanent contract got none as they were salaried, not much more than us either. That was about 2/3rd's of my test team. For us on the temps, our overtime pay was calculated out of kilter with our normal pay. We got paid on the 1st, but OT was calcalated 15th to the 15th, then added to the next pay on the 1st. You could hammer in shitloads of hours of OT in that period, get paid much more than normal, then it all gets taxed heavily, leaving you barely any better off for it. It was absolutely bloody senseless.

We'd get free dinners from a kitchen on overtime, which was very cool, with actual healthy options, but a lot of people decided to use the extra break to continue working at their desk. Despite the healthy options, a lot of the long term members were obese, riddled with physical problems that they'd whine about. At least we had really good chairs for your posture. Also a gym membership you could use at a local gym, but nobody had time for it anyway. A lot used it on their lunch break, but who wants to sacrifice relaxation and eating time to go and work out? Maybe for some its nice, but an actual break is useful as well. Plus it was far away enough that you were screaming there and back, hoping it wouldn't be busy and full of the locals.

Working the assload of extra hours, alongside the pressure, really destroyed my focus. I'd constantly be fidgeting, trying to distract myself during the small gaps (loading a new build, a quick automated test, waiting to get people ready for testing a specific mode in MP, etc), and I found it almost impossible to really relax. If I ever got an evening off, or even a day off, I'd be irritable. I'd snap at my girlfriend when she asked simple stuff, generally just having a rotten mood. I couldn't enjoy playing games anymore, most of my friends had distanced from me due to not being able to meet or even talk to them, and generally I became a recluse. I don't know if I even feel normal from that nowadays despite not working the same job for years. The months upon months I spent being hammered into an anxious fidgety mess is just not fucking worth it.

Long post, but I just want to rant about the fuckin' awful hours that game development studios encourage. Maybe these bosses are OK people outside of work, might be affable and likeable humans, but they should absolutely be crucified for the way they run things otherwise.
 

Deleted member 9929

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
309
I hope that all of the big outlets treat this with the attention it deserves. This shouldn't just be a disclaimer when discussing the game. This is the dicussion.
 

MrDaravon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,976
This is absolutely fucking disgusting. I had no interest in RDR2 personally (I kinda actively dislike western setting stuff) but I was going to buy this for my wife, but not anymore. Like, how fucking full of yourself do you have to be to BRAG about this. Abhorrent.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
I would quit my job immediately if I had to work 60 hours, 6 days per week. 100 hours, 7 days per week is insane! Disgusting.
 

Mhj

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
879
Just got off work and this has been stewing in my head all day. Putting some thoughts out there.

Performance reviews as mentioned were really the worst. There was always a jokey culture around the department of people being fired for not doing overtime, but bosses would always try and frame it as a joke and not reality despite names cropping up of people who HAD been fired for it. I could even look up the previous bug numbers for this person and see that they were pulling just as much as anyone else during our normal contracted hours.

I always felt anxious about my job before a review, sweating like fuck in the review, and still feeling shook after the review. I didn't want to lose the job, I loved working it when things were normal hours (I started there after a big stretch had been finished, so things were normal hours while we awaited new content and basically goofed around to find bugs in old content), we got unprecedented freedom to explore documentation, projects going on around the place, work with dev tools from any department in spare time to make our own stuff and present it, but the insane hours left almost no time for this unless you never left the office.

I had to quit my regular exercise regimen outside of the office when expected overtime became a natural reality (maybe 3 or 4 weeks into the job) because I just didn't have the time, focus or energy for it. After that, we never had a quiet period again, and I never got back into it while there. Just zero time and energy. I'd get bad headaches and nosebleeds at the office quite a lot, probably from staring at the same 3 monitors all day. Just had to stuff my nose full of toilet paper and deal with it, working through it all. Also began cutting corners in my personal time due to needing to catch sleep, like showering at work instead of home, like many other staff. Lots of people in the studio caught veruccas due to some asshat having them and spreading them around. I've still got mine, and its been years now. Treatment hasn't helped there, but there's a funny little thing for you that also gets to me.

Overtime was paid for anyone on a temporary contract (me), time and a half, but anyone on a permanent contract got none as they were salaried, not much more than us either. That was about 2/3rd's of my test team. For us on the temps, our overtime pay was calculated out of kilter with our normal pay. We got paid on the 1st, but OT was calcalated 15th to the 15th, then added to the next pay on the 1st. You could hammer in shitloads of hours of OT in that period, get paid much more than normal, then it all gets taxed heavily, leaving you barely any better off for it. It was absolutely bloody senseless.

We'd get free dinners from a kitchen on overtime, which was very cool, with actual healthy options, but a lot of people decided to use the extra break to continue working at their desk. Despite the healthy options, a lot of the long term members were obese, riddled with physical problems that they'd whine about. At least we had really good chairs for your posture. Also a gym membership you could use at a local gym, but nobody had time for it anyway. A lot used it on their lunch break, but who wants to sacrifice relaxation and eating time to go and work out? Maybe for some its nice, but an actual break is useful as well. Plus it was far away enough that you were screaming there and back, hoping it wouldn't be busy and full of the locals.

Working the assload of extra hours, alongside the pressure, really destroyed my focus. I'd constantly be fidgeting, trying to distract myself during the small gaps (loading a new build, a quick automated test, waiting to get people ready for testing a specific mode in MP, etc), and I found it almost impossible to really relax. If I ever got an evening off, or even a day off, I'd be irritable. I'd snap at my girlfriend when she asked simple stuff, generally just having a rotten mood. I couldn't enjoy playing games anymore, most of my friends had distanced from me due to not being able to meet or even talk to them, and generally I became a recluse. I don't know if I even feel normal from that nowadays despite not working the same job for years. The months upon months I spent being hammered into an anxious fidgety mess is just not fucking worth it.

Long post, but I just want to rant about the fuckin' awful hours that game development studios encourage. Maybe these bosses are OK people outside of work, might be affable and likeable humans, but they should absolutely be crucified for the way they run things otherwise.

For your own sake, please quit. It's not worth it for having your name in a credits list.
 

ckareset

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
4,977
You can go fuck the absolute off, you stupid piece of human trash.
Um, I think you need to calm down just a tad.

I suspect most the people supporting this dont quite understand the actual times it entails as opposed to them being stupid human trash lol.