Rockstar is preparing the sleep deprivation chambers for that, they don't need to worry.
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Rockstar employees were working "100 hour weeks" for RDR 2 [UPDATE: Rockstar's response]
- Thread starter Odesu
- Start date
Rockstar is preparing the sleep deprivation chambers for that, they don't need to worry.
it's unbelievable. Searching for a job sucks, imagine searching for a job on top of a 100-hour week.
I don't work there anymore. I was let go. It was the strangest feeling. I felt terrified to go, as I was supporting my girlfriend with the job and was the only income in the house while she studied. I had no savings because low pay, probably just enough to survive a couple of months, but then I landed another job in an unrelated field, and I've been happily cruising since then.
This is only the case in the videogame sector of software development.
The best of the best software companies have a sane work/life balance, and for the most part, they pay much more than the videogame sector of the software industry. As a software engineer, who works very normal 35-40 hour weeks, and usually doesn't have much crunch at all, and gets paid very competitively, I'm always eager to tell videogame developers to branch out to other parts of the industry where you'll get paid more, with better benefits, and not have crunch.
Before they started cracking down on CDL vehicles in America, it was not uncommon for those driving 80,000 pound big trucks to push 90 plus hours a week. Years ago, I worked in a field that required driving a big truck, and I never put in less than 70 hours a week, and flirted with 100 a few times. I was young, and was able to do it, but if I am being honest, it is lucky I did not kill a family driving off the road. At the very least it put a huge strain on my marriage and my relationship with my children.
At the the time I thought I was doing the right thing for my family. The truth was I was being exploited by my company, and worked well past what is fair. The government stepped in and capped the hours of work to 60 or 70 for CDL jobs (depending on a few things) which really helped, but there are still people on the road, who should not be behind the wheel because they are not getting enough rest. (physical and mental)
The truth is crunch time should only be for times of emergencies. Making sure a game comes out on time...that will end up making BILLIONS... is in no fucking way an emergency.
At the the time I thought I was doing the right thing for my family. The truth was I was being exploited by my company, and worked well past what is fair. The government stepped in and capped the hours of work to 60 or 70 for CDL jobs (depending on a few things) which really helped, but there are still people on the road, who should not be behind the wheel because they are not getting enough rest. (physical and mental)
The truth is crunch time should only be for times of emergencies. Making sure a game comes out on time...that will end up making BILLIONS... is in no fucking way an emergency.
Oh wow man that is horrible. Sorry to hear that. That is crazy. I wasn't aware how cut throat this industry can be. (telletale and other recent dev news aside)
I didn't mean to say that it ONLY happens with games, Of course it definitely happens with software/computers since that's just the nature of working with computers in general(I work in IT). Just considering the deadlines for video games specifically was the only reason I emphasized games. Studied a bit of project management and i believe that refers to as "creep" but yeah i was just saying that I feel it's kinda unavoidable to make a project deadline without something being sacrificed whether it be the quality of the game,time devs put into the game, or the date the game releases being pushed back. It seems like a middle ground nowadays is to release the game at the deadline with known bugs (maybe not too common or game-breaking) and then resolve those down the line. I feel that it's worked for the most part with a few exceptions, but it's an improvement.
yeah I was highly considering going in game development, but just always hearing stuff like this in news (and realizing that I love playing them more than creating them) turned me off. I really do hope this gets unionized eventually. Of course this will probably delay some games, but i'm totally fine with that if it creates a more enjoyable work/life balance for game devs which in turn may result in even better games themselves.
While I do not condone or encourage this type of behavior, this is nothing new. This is a problem with software development in general. (in my opinion)
You have business and marketing people trying to make up budgets, plans, get the hype going and make commitments that they have no idea about way too early. Devs, QA, BAs all get squeezed to try and make the commitments that other people made on their behalf. It gets worse when you try and run an agile shop and are constantly making scope cuts and end up with an MVP (minimal viable product) of your MVP. Don't even get me started on end to end validation and release management.
Companies need to better manage expectations of their consumer base and the media. It seems to me CD Projekt Red has a decent handle on this with their non committal attitude and not showing off things until they have made good progress.
It is a slippery slope too, the larger the company is. They will always want to show the latest and greatest.
You have business and marketing people trying to make up budgets, plans, get the hype going and make commitments that they have no idea about way too early. Devs, QA, BAs all get squeezed to try and make the commitments that other people made on their behalf. It gets worse when you try and run an agile shop and are constantly making scope cuts and end up with an MVP (minimal viable product) of your MVP. Don't even get me started on end to end validation and release management.
Companies need to better manage expectations of their consumer base and the media. It seems to me CD Projekt Red has a decent handle on this with their non committal attitude and not showing off things until they have made good progress.
It is a slippery slope too, the larger the company is. They will always want to show the latest and greatest.
Yea you can, there's a law where you're only supposed to work 48 hours per week, but you can opt out if you want to do more, before that I worked 12 hours per day 7 days a week as a Security guard, I think I ended up doing 43 days straight before a day off (to be fair, I wanted some money saved and this paid well enough to set me up to go to University)
Edit: And to add, I got a Bachlors Degree in Video Game and Software Development, after hearing so many bad stories I decided to focus on Software dev. more, better pay for less hours really
It's a shame I was never interested in this game, I could've joined a few others in boycotting it.
Overall, I'm proud of ERA for mostly getting upset at this. A few rotten eggs defending it doesn't change that.
Overall, I'm proud of ERA for mostly getting upset at this. A few rotten eggs defending it doesn't change that.
iirc you're entitled to one day off a week or two off a fortnight if you're over 18. That can be twisted by employers to have people working 7 or more days in a row. I see it at my work all the time happening to people too scared to say no.
But the best-in-class response to an exploitative work culture isn't just expressing sympathy. We all need to feel some shame for not boycotting and hence enabling this type of behavior.
Multiple times. I've worked in investment banking and private equity, I know what 80-100 hour weeks are like. I knew what I was getting into but after a while I decided I'd rather do something more laid back and switched jobs.
Having bills and obligations doesnt mean you cant switch jobs, you find something new, put in your 2 weeks and start working at the new place 2 weeks after. Millions of Americans do it every year.
While that may help, consumers should not support product that we know were created under hostile working conditions. Everyone has a role to play. They should unionize, and we shouldn't purchase this product.
It seems like they had double the normal amount of development time for a typical AAA game. They also make a fuckton of money from GTA online.
So, either exploitation is built into how Rockstar produces games, or they have terrible project management. Probably a bit of both...
So, either exploitation is built into how Rockstar produces games, or they have terrible project management. Probably a bit of both...
Oh god dude. I'm so glad life worked out for you but my god, that is incredibly exploitative. Thank you for telling us about your experience.
Investment banking and games industry are not the same. You can find a finance job in likely any decently sized city. That's not the case for game development.
That would be acceptable if the millions of revenue would be split between the hard-working employees. Most of it will go to people who hardly work at all however, that is the world we live in.
Great point and I feel the general consensus for most of us in here (assuming of course) is that we don't mind a game being delayed multiple times especially with rockstar's games and considering their M.O. with how long their games take to be released anyway on top of delays after that. Majority of cases it results in a better game and we all have immense backlogs anyway. I think the push of release on announced dates are more so on shareholders i'd assume to get games out by a specific quarter possibly, maybe.
I was under the impression that if you worked more than 12 hrs straight in a shift you're supposed to have a day off. So 14hr for 7 days doesn't sound legal.
If gamers stood for something they'd boycot this game.
Those are the kind of hours some interns at hospitals do. And these are video game developers not doctors. Terrible. Disgusting even.
Those are the kind of hours some interns at hospitals do. And these are video game developers not doctors. Terrible. Disgusting even.
That would make it impossible to buy the vast majority of products, electronic and otherwise.
It could also potentially endanger the money/bonuses of those who will receive additional compensation as the game reaches various sales milestones.
I don't condone these practices but I would argue the more effective strategy is to contact the company as a paying customer and voice our concerns.
We, as consumers, need to stop normalising this nonsense.
No one should be working 100 hours a week and we need to accept longer dev cycles or delayed games and less killing developers.
No one should be working 100 hours a week and we need to accept longer dev cycles or delayed games and less killing developers.
Yeah but I don't think an employer can legally allow an employee to work 7 straight days of over 12 hr shifts. Hopefully someone with a knowledge of UK labour law can chime in.
It's because the game industry is a sexy industry. You have new grads willing to get gigs every year for the gaming industry. This is why they can get away with this.
I assume most game developers have an interest in the industry and long time connections with the hobby. Also shipping a game may seem more exciting than shipping some B2B SaaS product. You will most likely play what you ship, unlike other types of software.
I can barely register what's that like.
I had a project a few years ago that had me working a few 12, stress filled, hour-days, and that was soul crushing.
Working 100 hour weeks, which I'm sure includes weekends, is inhuman.
Not that is solves anything, but I just hope those guys will get the compensation they deserve.
I had a project a few years ago that had me working a few 12, stress filled, hour-days, and that was soul crushing.
Working 100 hour weeks, which I'm sure includes weekends, is inhuman.
Not that is solves anything, but I just hope those guys will get the compensation they deserve.
I'm not sure about now as I only do 8 hour days, but back in 2012, it was at least 12 hours between shifts(so if I finished at 10pm, I couldn't start work the next day til 10am)
Completely unacceptable. Didn't intend to buy it, and this sure makes the decision easier. Disgraceful.
Well, maybe it'll seem that way, but hadn't it been for these news, the game would sell at least one more copy: mine.
Rockstar can go fuck themselves with these practices.
not forced, only coerced. See it's not mandatory, it'll only look bad on your review if you don't do it!
Would the writing staff of all things need crunch? Wouldn't that of anything be able to be completed on schedule over 8 years?
Also allow me to be sceptical that writing staff does crunch but not programmers.
I agree but the whole 'vote with your wallet' approach rarely works when gamers aren't directly effected. I don't understand why there aren't labor laws against this type of labor abuse.
I agree that gamers are part of the problem but that's only part of it. Gamers are used to waiting for Rockstar games. I don't get why it wouldn't have been possible to launch it next year and crunch less. I get that investors would be unhappy but fuck them, the company is already making a shit ton of money with GTA Online, they can afford to launch later.
Regarding how gamers approach aspects of this industry, this would require a level of interest from the audience that I just don't think exists. We see countless ignorant comments, assumptions, and requests by people who are highly active in the hobby. Unfortunately I don't think that'll be changing anytime soon.
There isn't much of anything to say that hasn't been said already. I just hope those people working those hours were well-compensated and that Rockstar achieved everything they wanted with RDR2. It honestly sounds like one of the most ambitious games ever made.
Part of me believes that to achieve that, you had to go insane lengths. Hope it's worth it for everyone involved.
Part of me believes that to achieve that, you had to go insane lengths. Hope it's worth it for everyone involved.
No one is working 100h weeks. Don't get me wrong I believe Rockstar is overworking it's employee's, but people that say they are working 100h a week are full of shit most of the time.
The ' no one is forced to work hard ' line struck me as an odd choice of words. He could have said so many other things. ''' no one is forced to work in bad conditions, no one is forced to work more than 40 hours.' No. He said no one is forced to work hard, like the people who don't work 100 hours aren't working hard?
I can't name the company because I'm still under NDA, but I continually think about getting back into gamedev, or how I actually weirdly miss working at that company. Then I remember the stretch of 2 months without a day off and I think "Ha, no fucking way". I didn't have time to even build anything portfolio-wise while working there, and the contract makes all your out-of-work shit theirs anyway. I just feel like I'm too behind to bother getting back into the game, and I'd have to find a company that respects my time, which also feels impossible.
Don't feel good enough to work in an indie team either. Can't pull my weight with how my skills are. Just given up on getting back into gamedev and enjoying what I have right now. There's always a small "One day" in the back of my head, but I can't see it happening if I take a realistic outlook. I just don't trust the industry anymore.