Ronda Rousey in Mortal Kombat 11 is a disappointing and problematic decision by NRS (Check Staff Posts)

[Fads]

Hey, what she said wasn't transphobic. I really follow the MMA Scene, and a man that has transition to a woman still has physical advantages over women.

So this woman, with the physical advantages of being born a man, wants to fight naturally born women in a cage. It's transphobic for a female athelete to not want to fight that person? Or to acknowledge that they still have those natural born advantages? C'mon now.

As far as Saudi apologists, as a business, of course its a good idea to put on a show over there, rather than pull out and sacrifice the deal they're getting.

Sandy hook truthing is very disappointing to hear and I hope her opinion has changed.
Domestic abuser? Hope that's changed aswell

 

[Garlador]

And Dr. Joanna Harper:

"transgender women who go through puberty as males do have advantages that cannot be eliminated completely through hormone therapy.

'It reduces muscle mass, but not to typical female averages," she said. "On average, transgender women are taller, bigger and stronger. For many sports, including volleyball, these are advantages.'

But, she added, they also have disadvantages. The main one is they maintain their typically larger frames, but with reduced muscle mass and aerobic capacity."

My point being I don't think the debate is completely settled, and it's a little more of an issue in a combat sport.

Also, if you're going to include Fallon Fox's perspective you should include someone she fought.

Tamikka Brents: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch..."

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To follow up... I admit there is more nuance here and selectively picking one doctor's side is disengenuous. I've dug a bit deeper and there are more doctors who support Dr. Harper's assessment.

It's less about the therapy itself and more the timing of it.

Dr. Ramona Krtuzick, an endocrinologist well versed in the finer points of hormone therapies, says that because Fox started her treatment so late in life, it's unlikely her skeleton and musculature would change significantly. As Krutzick told Bloody Elbow:

Typically, you're looking at about 15 years after androgen suppression and sexual reassignment surgery to really start to see significant changes in bone density. It's been too early for her to see much of a decrease in bone mass or to make her equal to that of a female. She started off with a much higher bone density than other women her same age, and therefore will maintain a lot of that for a while. Additionally, because she is taking estrogen, that will actually help to maintain that bone mass. Women also have lighter, child bearing hips because of the difference in hormones during the body's developmental years. Her skeleton and body mass and shape developed a long time ago. Those changes cannot be undone. They are permanent.​

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​

My best friend is transitioning right now, so it's a complicate subject for me to wrap my head around as a normative straight cisgendered man, not even factoring in the complications of a physical, full-contact sport where hormones, body mass, bone density, weight, diet, testosterone, and technique all come together.

Because it is a bit more nuanced, HOW Ronda responded to the issue is more of the problem that's pertaining to her character, less than the situation itself. Her quotes, even IF true, aren't a good look.

 

[Driggonny]

This isn't how sports work. We don't nitpick the past of every single person competing, but we do it for trans people. I know people who have a decided advantage against me in basketball purely because they somehow grew to be very tall during puberty. At some point you have to admit that sports have never been about "fairness of past circumstances."

 

[Shoreu]

Why are people still talking about her? 🤦🏾‍♂️

 

[Garlador]

This isn't how sports work. We don't nitpick the past of every single person competing, but we do it for trans people. I know people who have a decided advantage against me in basketball purely because they somehow grew to be very tall during puberty. At some point you have to admit that sports have never been about "fairness of past circumstances."

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I don't know what you mean...

(I was always way too short and small for either basketball or football...)

 

[Fads]

This isn't how sports work. We don't nitpick the past of every single person competing, but we do it for trans people. I know people who have a decided advantage against me in basketball purely because they somehow grew to be very tall during puberty. At some point you have to admit that sports have never been about "fairness of past circumstances."

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What an oblivious thing to say.

Men have a higher ceiling than women naturally.
The whole point of combat sports is competing at an equal starting ground, seeing which fight style is the best, and seeing who is better naturally. That's why combat sports have weight classes. But a man, who has a both a higher ceiling, and a higher floor, changes to a woman's division, now has a higher floor than those women. That's when fairness has been breached

 

[Sweeney Swift]

Buying used if I even buy it at all, which I'm more leaning to now. Shame, I was really hype for this new entry, MK's always been my fav fighting game franchise. But even if her shitty Sandy Hook comments never happened, I'm not financially supporting or endorsing open transphobes.

To bring something positive out of this development: I'm already a monthly supporter but for new people who want to help, and help is always accepted and needed, donate to the National Center for Transgender Equality https://transequality.org/. The Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund http://www.transgenderlegal.org/ also does great and necessary work. And if you need help or support, there's always the Trans Lifeline https://www.translifeline.org

 

[Lockheartilly9799]

What an oblivious thing to say.

Men have a higher ceiling than women naturally.
The whole point of combat sports is competing at an equal starting ground, seeing which fight style is the best, and seeing who is better naturally. That's why combat sports have weight classes. But a man, who has a both a higher ceiling, and a higher floor, changes to a woman's division, now has a higher floor than those women. That's when fairness has been breached

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What you suggest, a trans division? There are only a couple million openly trans people in the USA total. What do you suggest? Trans people stay in the division they were originally in? That de-legitimizes who they are. There's nuance to this. What the real solution should be is for people to just accept this and let it go. There isn't some trans boogymen that are going to win all the championships and change sports forever.

 

[KcebAnier]

I'm not gonna play nice with people who don't see me as human. Fuck them and fuck this attitude of being nice to the bigots.

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I didn't say you should be nice to bigots. I said you shouldn't call everyone a bigot just because they disagree with you. Her comments were clearly not Transphobic and calling them Transphobic does more harm than good.

 

[Driggonny]

What an oblivious thing to say.

Men have a higher ceiling than women naturally.
The whole point of combat sports is competing at an equal starting ground, seeing which fight style is the best, and seeing who is better naturally. That's why combat sports have weight classes. But a man, who has a both a higher ceiling, and a higher floor, changes to a woman's division, now has a higher floor than those women. That's when fairness has been breached

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I have never heard someone say that a trans woman who hasn't transitioned at all, or is early in transition, should be allowed to compete. But, there has to be a line somewhere that says they can, or else I'm calling it what it is: discrimination. I have seen countless great college quarterbacks who can't make it in the NFL because they're just not big enough. Is that their fault? Is that fair? "Fairness" only seems to matter with transfolk

 

[Iscariot]

Because it is a bit more nuanced, HOW Ronda responded to the issue is more of the problem that's pertaining to her character, less than the situation itself. Her quotes, even IF true, aren't a good look.

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I agree completely. Her "pecker" comment was definitely transphobic.

 

[Fads]

What you suggest, a trans division? There are only a couple million openly trans people in the USA total. What do you suggest? Trans people stay in the division they were originally in? That de-legitimizes who they are. There's nuance to this. What the real solution should be is for people to just accept this and let it go. There isn't some trans boogymen that are going to win all the championships and change sports forever.

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This isn't about who they are or aren't. This isn't about de-legitimizing anyone. Accepting it and letting it go is not a real solution. Fight sports is about equals fighting each other using different styles. Being a transgender (specifically, men transitioning to women) ruins the legitimacy of womens divisions.

A woman can transition to a man and fight men, because they don't gain an advantage over the men by doing so.
A man cannot transition to a woman, and then fight woman, because they gain an advantage by doing so.

It's as simple as that.

 

[ldcommando]

Nunes supports both Trump and Bolsonaro (Brazil's far-right dipshit president).

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I´ll allow it. Have you seen her punching people? I want none of that

 

[KcebAnier]

Nah. You can have zero ill intent and still make transphobic comments. Or any type of - ism really. Where did you come to that conclusion? Diet racism is a thing y'know.

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Personally, I consider subconscious and ignorant use of -phobics and -isms still have ill intent. Even if the person doesn't feel like they have ill intend, the intent exists on some level.

 

[Deleted member 37739]

This isn't about who they are or aren't. This isn't about de-legitimizing anyone. Accepting it and letting it go is not a real solution. Fight sports is about equals fighting each other using different styles. Being a transgender (specifically, men transitioning to women) ruins the legitimacy of womens divisions.

A woman can transition to a man and fight men, because they don't gain an advantage over the men by doing so.
A man cannot transition to a woman, and then fight woman, because they gain an advantage by doing so.

It's as simple as that.

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I see where you're coming from, but the argument relies on the assumption of universal attributes across a single biological sex. Take height, for example, males are on average taller than females, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of females out there who are considerably taller than the vast majority of males.

The natural ceiling is based on an average across a single biological group, but it's not a universal.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

What an oblivious thing to say.

Men have a higher ceiling than women naturally.
The whole point of combat sports is competing at an equal starting ground, seeing which fight style is the best, and seeing who is better naturally. That's why combat sports have weight classes. But a man, who has a both a higher ceiling, and a higher floor, changes to a woman's division, now has a higher floor than those women. That's when fairness has been breached

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The argument that "men and women are just different, simple as that!" has been used to shut down actual conversation surrounding sex and gender for generations because people are married to these perceived truths about what men and women look like and what they are capable of. You refer to weight classes as if men and women could not conceivably compete in a weight class they both met the requirements for. People have been socialized to view male and female athletes a certain way but there just isn't any research to indicate that there is a meaningful difference at all between transgender and cisgender athletes.

Here is an article from 2016 that refers to two then-recent studies that came to this conclusion. Both the journals themselves are linked in the article, but for ease, the article summarizes the findings quite clearly:

It was a decision based in part on a Dutch study in the European Journal of Endocrinology, which found that within a year after gender-reassignment surgery, trans women had testosterone and haemoglobin levels no higher than their female-born compatriots. That's important because high testosterone is associated with masculine levels of muscle mass and strength, while high haemoglobin is associated with greater aerobic capacity and therefore speed.

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Some were national-class talents, others mid-pack competitors, but in research published last year in the Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities, she found that, like hers, their average age-and-gender-graded performances barely budged after their transitions.

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Another study published in 2017, Sport and Transgender People: A Systematic Review of the Literature Relating to Sport Participation and Competitive Sport Policies, came to the same exact conclusion as these two others:

Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised.

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People think they are being sensible when they say things like "I support trans equality but athleticism is based on physiology of sex rather than gender," but this concern speaks to a lack of understanding of the physiological changes transitioned athletes reach and boils athletic performance down to sex versus all the other factors associated with athletics and fitness. Fallon Fox began her transition in 2006. It's a moot conversation. She has been a woman for her entire athletic career.


This notion that transgender athletes have an innate unfair advantage isn't harmless musing nor is it rooted in factual observation. Attitudes like this create a status quo of scrutiny and doubt. It delegitimizes the accomplishments of marginalized people because they're accused of having an advantage they don't have. Nobody ever cares if transgender athletes compete and lose, but there is this terrible fear that they could win. This is transphobia and this is why Ronda Rousey is wrong.

Any conversation about how to transgender athletes impact the world of sports should be done from the basis of how to incorporate them, not by rationalizing ways to exclude them from competitions. At the end of the day there are actual transgender people who could explain and articulate this better than I can but it must be exhausting having to defend the legitimacy of your existence all the time.

 

[yungronny]

Wow, so a very real concern regarding trans people and sports is completely untouchable here? If you express any opinion other than "ITS FINE NO MATTER WHAT!" at all you get banned? Very balanced mod staff, good stuff.

 

[Whompa]

is this really a line from the game?

thats fucking disgusting.

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Bro are you serious? Come on...

 

[Deleted member 13798]

Publicity.

She's a well known celebrity.

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I agree with you, but MK is already no slouch in the sales department so I'm not sure how much her involvement would boost the numbers.

 

[-Tetsuo-]

I hope this thread will protect the other MK threads from the Rhonda stuff

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It wont

 

[JuicyPlayer]

Why didn't they stick with the original voice cast?

Are they just replacing people for celebrity value?

Even ignoring that the new voice actress is apparently a piece of crap that's still a really shitty thing to do.

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Same thing with MGSV , sorry I didn't like Keifer.

 

[Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric]

She's a terrible person and her star has been fading rapidly so I have no idea why they bothered including her.

As others have pointed out, she's also an abysmal actor.

(Game looks awesome however)

 

[Skeleton]

I mean if you hate her that much, you can literally kill her in a very gruesome ways.

 

[Violence Jack]

I'm surprised so many are just now finding out about Ronda being a Sandy Hook truthing, transphobic piece of shit. Even if she didn't make those comments, it makes no sense to include her in the game. And even though she's been better in the WWE than I expected, I cannot bring myself to root for that horrible person. I wasn't planning on buying the game any way since I only play the story mode in fighting games, but now this decision has me even rethinking that. Fuck her. And she's voicing, or motion capturing Sonya? Double fuck her.

This further disappoints me because I think with this game coming out so close to Wrestlemania makes me think they're going to have her win or retain the one of the Women's titles again over other women who have busted their asses for years and don't get 1% of the opportunities she does.

 

[JuicyPlayer]

I'm surprised so many are just now finding out about Ronda being a Sandy Hook truthing, transphobic piece of shit. Even if she didn't make those comments, it makes no sense to include her in the game. And even though she's been better in the WWE than I expected, I cannot bring myself to root for that horrible person. I wasn't planning on buying the game any way since I only play the story mode in fighting games, but now this decision has me even rethinking that. Fuck her. And she's voicing, or motion capturing Sonya? Double fuck her.

This further disappoints me because I think with this game coming out so close to Wrestlemania makes me think they're going to have her win or retain the one of the Women's titles again over other women who have busted their asses for years and don't get 1% of the opportunities she does.

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One of the reasons I'm all in with AEW , I really want them to be a legitimate threat to WWE.

 

[Deleted member 42]

Talked about this earlier, but IMO they included her because

A: She's a celeb and WB likes these kinda things I think (basing off Sean Bean in Hitman 2, among others)
B: A lot of the garbage comments people are referring to are a few years back, she mostly doesn't come outta pocket on social media anymore
C: WB likely number crunched and figured they'd sell more copies because she's in the game (and likely doing a lot of marketing for it)

They essentially did a dice roll of Pros v Cons and figured the pros outweighed it/they could ride it out

 

[ThisThingIsUseful]

Posted this before but..

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This is so good.

 

[Deleted member 4346]

She's a domestic abuser, in addition to her horrible comments about Sandy Hook, etc. I've bought the last several MK games because my children love them. This one I will be passing on. As a domestic violence survivor I definitely cannot support this.

 

[Soulstoner]

This isn't about who they are or aren't. This isn't about de-legitimizing anyone. Accepting it and letting it go is not a real solution. Fight sports is about equals fighting each other using different styles. Being a transgender (specifically, men transitioning to women) ruins the legitimacy of womens divisions.

A woman can transition to a man and fight men, because they don't gain an advantage over the men by doing so.
A man cannot transition to a woman, and then fight woman, because they gain an advantage by doing so.

It's as simple as that.

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BANNED as trans-phobic for this post? This individual needs to be educated through discussion, not banned.

 

[Iscariot]

I have never heard someone say that a trans woman who hasn't transitioned at all, or is early in transition, should be allowed to compete. But, there has to be a line somewhere that says they can, or else I'm calling it what it is: discrimination. I have seen countless great college quarterbacks who can't make it in the NFL because they're just not big enough. Is that their fault? Is that fair? "Fairness" only seems to matter with transfolk

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So let's agree on some values in no particular order.
1. Trans shouldn't be discriminated against.
2. Safety, especially in combat sports is very important.
3. There is such a thing as the integrity of a sport. Cheating, PED's, and crooked refs may be rampant in pro sports, but we tend not to approve of that.

In my mind we are trying to determine where a transathelete's desires run in to conflict or potential conflict with 2 and 3, and where the concerns of 2 and 3 may over reach and run afoul of 1. Does that seem accurate?

So what makes the quarterback an odd comparison to me is that within the framework of American Football there are no weight classes, just positions. Boxing, wrestling, MMA would simply not sanction fights where a 125 lbs division fighter fought a 185 lbs fighter. Nor would they allow a 125 lbs man fight a 125 lbs woman. The later example is simply because at the athletic peaks the divide between men and women's performance is vast enough that within those sports it'd be a no contest. Part of the debate is in how much advantage remains even after a pretty long period of hormonal therapy, and this same debate rages over PEDs by the way. There's some science that the body gains what I'm just going to call cellular memory, and that even when there's been a cessation of PED intake some of the benefit remains effectively permanently. Back to football, people would probably take umbrage with said quarterbacks undergoing surgical and chemical alteration to make themselves larger. And obviously the next frontier of this will be CRISPR babies versus unaltered.

So to your point about the line being somewhere. I think based on what I've seen that that line has a really broad range depending on who is publishing and there are questions about the if of that line. Likely there just hasn't been enough research to say with certainty, and it's a charged issue.

Full disclosure: having grown up in an environment with rampant domestic abuse, there's an aspect of this that's never going to be comfortable to me. And I refuse to watch Fallon Fox's fights because she still registers masculine to me in a primal biological way that'd be disturbing in respect to her fighting other women. That said, I'm trying to maintain a compassionate perspective, but maintain it's not a simple answer.

 

[NDWest14]

BANNED as trans-phobic for this post? This individual needs to be educated through discussion, not banned.

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I'm new here, but yeah, that guy wasn't arguing. He was presenting good points.

Points that Joe Rogan, a guy with combat sport experience, a national champion, and someone who's watched and commentated more fights than this entire thread combined has also supported through his studies and interviews with professionals relating to the subject.

I honestly don't want to get banned, I'm new and I've enjoyed the activity here so I won't get into it, but banning someone over a cordial discussion is amongst the negatives I've seen when I went to try and find a nice new place to chat. I will say that opposing opinions should NOT label you as a trans-phobic. That right there just negates any active conversation over the subject.

 

[ZeoVGM]

I think for a lot of people this is a washed up fighter in a washed up game series.

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What.

That is factually incorrect.

 

[ZeoVGM]

I think for a lot of people this is a washed up fighter in a washed up game series.

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What.

That is factually incorrect.

 

[Moebius]

Can you add concussing Alexa Bliss to the list?

 

[Lockheartilly9799]

This isn't about who they are or aren't. This isn't about de-legitimizing anyone. Accepting it and letting it go is not a real solution. Fight sports is about equals fighting each other using different styles. Being a transgender (specifically, men transitioning to women) ruins the legitimacy of womens divisions.

A woman can transition to a man and fight men, because they don't gain an advantage over the men by doing so.
A man cannot transition to a woman, and then fight woman, because they gain an advantage by doing so.

It's as simple as that.

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No, it's not that simple. Putting transwomen with men de-legitimizes who they are. It's more complex than you want it to be.

 

[Kthulhu]

I'm new here, but yeah, that guy wasn't arguing. He was presenting good points.

Points that Joe Rogan, a guy with combat sport experience, a national champion, and someone who's watched and commentated more fights than this entire thread combined has also supported through his studies and interviews with professionals relating to the subject.

I honestly don't want to get banned, I'm new and I've enjoyed the activity here so I won't get into it, but banning someone over a cordial discussion is amongst the negatives I've seen when I went to try and find a nice new place to chat. I will say that opposing opinions should NOT label you as a trans-phobic. That right there just negates any active conversation over the subject.

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Is this the same Joe Rogan that routinely invites transphobic people on his podcast, or a different one I don't know about? Because if so then I could give less of a shit what he does or doesn't think about trans people.

 

[Water]

This isn't about who they are or aren't. This isn't about de-legitimizing anyone. Accepting it and letting it go is not a real solution. Fight sports is about equals fighting each other using different styles. Being a transgender (specifically, men transitioning to women) ruins the legitimacy of womens divisions.

A woman can transition to a man and fight men, because they don't gain an advantage over the men by doing so.
A man cannot transition to a woman, and then fight woman, because they gain an advantage by doing so.

It's as simple as that.

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Banned for this? This was not someone being transphobic.

 

[Deleted member 7148]

She's a terrible person and her star has been fading rapidly so I have no idea why they bothered including her.

As others have pointed out, she's also an abysmal actor.

(Game looks awesome however)

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She's still got a fanbase but at this point in her career she's probably inexpensive to hire, so it's a cheap celeb to have on board to get the game a little more publicity.

 

[NDWest14]

Is this the same Joe Rogan that routinely invites transphobic people on his podcast, or a different one I don't know about? Because if so then I could give less of a shit what he does or doesn't think about trans people.

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Painting with an awfully broad brush. If people have opinions on a subject that don't agree with your own doesn't make them this or that. It makes them open to conversation. He's routinely discussed how opinions change over years and his own have as well. If you're going to take everything out of context and live in a silo that's your decision, but that's also what's wrong with this current climate is that people can't have a conversations without being labeled as this or that.

Just because someone said something years ago does not mean that represents their current personality today. You should believe 20% of what you see on the internet and listen instead. Listening and reading are completely different and there is A LOT lost in context when something is presented in quotes instead of what they actually meant.

I've listened to the show for 5+ years, never a transphobic person on there that I'm aware of, and yes, I'd be more inclined to listen to people with experience in the sport on the subject than a barstool commentator with no experience.

 

[Nome]

Heh, never knew Ronda Rousey made these comments about Fallon Fox.
She also said she could beat Cain Velasquez (former male UFC heavyweight champ).

Honestly no one should listen to a word she says. She's irrelevant and an idiot.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Banned for this? This was not someone being transphobic.

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The link in the OP blatantly points out what he is claiming is false.

 

[Deleted member 18347]

Painting with an awfully broad brush. If people have opinions on a subject that don't agree with your own doesn't make them this or that. It makes them open to conversation. He's routinely discussed how opinions change over years and his own have as well. If you're going to take everything out of context and live in a silo that's your decision, but that's also what's wrong with this current climate is that people can't have a conversations without being labeled as this or that.

Just because someone said something years ago does not mean that represents their current personality today. You should believe 20% of what you see on the internet and listen instead. Listening and reading are completely different and there is A LOT lost in context when something is presented in quotes instead of what they actually meant.

I've listened to the show for 5+ years, never a transphobic person on there that I'm aware of, and yes, I'd be more inclined to listen to people with experience in the sport on the subject than a barstool commentator with no experience.

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Are there any data to support these claims of trans athletes having an advantage?

I would like to know as I have no idea about this subject.

 

[Mars People]

The link in the OP blatantly points out what he is claiming is false.

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So he deserves to be banned for being factually incorrect?
I didn't detect any malice in the posts. Ignorance maybe, should people get banned for that now?

It feels counter to meaningful discussions, if people can get banned at the drop of a hat.
What happened to changing opinions via arguments and discussion?

 

[NDWest14]

Are there any data to support these claims of trans athletes having an advantage?

I would like to know as I have no idea about this subject.

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Simply put, there's as many articles about advantage as there are about even playing field. It's a discussion.

My only issue with this entire thread is the labels being tossed around at anyone debating the hyper progressive take on it. It's a VERY new discussion and I don't personally think enough studies have been done to conclude anything at this time. Nor do I feel that this is a welcome environment to express anything that could be deemed conflicting so I actually prefer leaving this thread and discussing games instead.

 

[Loudninja]

So he deserves to be banned for being factually incorrect?
I didn't detect any malice in the posts. Ignorance maybe, should people get banned for that now?

It feels counter to meaningful discussions, if people can get banned at the drop of a hat.

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My god some if you are infuriating he pushing the same garbage rhetoric that is wrong and hurtful.

 

[Chixdiggit]

Wow, so a very real concern regarding trans people and sports is completely untouchable here? If you express any opinion other than "ITS FINE NO MATTER WHAT!" at all you get banned? Very balanced mod staff, good stuff.

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Agreed. What is going on with this place? What makes it worse is that the poster had legit points.

 

[Kaguya]

Fuck Rousey, I doubt NRS will change anything about it. I'm just glad her likeness isn't in the game at this point.

 

[Ketkat]

Painting with an awfully broad brush. If people have opinions on a subject that don't agree with your own doesn't make them this or that. It makes them open to conversation. He's routinely discussed how opinions change over years and his own have as well. If you're going to take everything out of context and live in a silo that's your decision, but that's also what's wrong with this current climate is that people can't have a conversations without being labeled as this or that.

Just because someone said something years ago does not mean that represents their current personality today. You should believe 20% of what you see on the internet and listen instead. Listening and reading are completely different and there is A LOT lost in context when something is presented in quotes instead of what they actually meant.

I've listened to the show for 5+ years, never a transphobic person on there that I'm aware of, and yes, I'd be more inclined to listen to people with experience in the sport on the subject than a barstool commentator with no experience.

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Just off the top of my head, didn't he have Milo Yiannopoulos on his podcast? And hasn't he said in the past personally that he doesn't think transitioning is effective, that the term "gender dysphoria" could be considered hate speech, and that transitioning before the age of 25 is a dangerous issue?

Where exactly are you drawing the line at transphobia if Milo doesn't count? And why is it that you feel Joe Rogan understands trans issues when he has repeatedly shown that he doesn't know anything about it?

 

[Deleted member 5086]

Stop derailing this thread with your opinions on moderation. Further posts of this nature will be moderated. Members attempting to rationalise or dismiss the impact of transphobic rhetoric will also be moderated. Members attempting to learn something and broaden their understanding of transgender athletes in professional sports should do so without engaging in transphobic rhetoric.

 

[Nome]

Are there any data to support these claims of trans athletes having an advantage?

I would like to know as I have no idea about this subject.

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No, there's not enough research to point things either way.
What we know is that hormone therapy (test blockers, estrogen, etc) will lower performance.
However, we also know that even taking a single cycle of anabolic steroids (test and similar compounds) will forever alter a person's physiology.

I don't think it's categorically right to deny trans people the right to compete in womens' divisions, but based on precedent in other sports, and hormone science in general, there's a case to be made for more scrutiny.