RPS: Cyberpunk 2077's E3 demo has weak gunplay and unimaginative stereotypes

FoolsMilky

Member
Sep 16, 2018
80
Funny you should mention that. There's this thing called voice direction. And this was incredibly racist voice direction. Here's a transcript of the actress actually talking
Thank you for bringing that interview to light, I'm glad that someone did it at all. It's really interesting to hear the stance of someone who has worked so long in the industry, especially in her unique position.
CDPR could probably get a fair pass if they had someone simply say, on stage "We plan to address topics such as body transformation, sexuality, gender, race, and other sensitive topics with a diverse team of talent. Please walk hand in hand with us while we attempt to do these stories justice and represent all people."


At least that would help most people feel as if these decisions aren't made with pure ignorance. I could assume with such a comment that stereotypes will be critiqued in a meaningful way and prior source material will also be critiqued if it hasn't aged well.
Sometimes I feel like there's a shared anxiety about being in the dark about someone's intentions or thoughts in these kinds of issues. Although I don't seek to invalidate anyone's readings of this imagery, it always feels like we'd know so much more if the creator (In this case, CDPR) was more vocal about their visions and intentions for their creation. Otherwise, some of us want to assume the worst because we stand against the implications we see, or we want to assume the best or dismiss things so that we don't have to think about the implications.

I would very much like to hear CDPR's thoughts on gender, race, transhumanism, etc. and what that means for their vision of Cyberpunk. I don't know if they have plans for that, but engaging in those topics at all would probably be a more welcoming step for understanding than the more accepted radio silence and "We don't talk about that kind of stuff but it's in our games somehow" that game developers and companies seem to want most times.

OT: I usually just read through these kinds of threads because I don't know if my opinion is very valuable, or maybe I'm afraid that my opinion won't be shared by other people. And for that reason, I tend to spout some pretty non-committal stuff and just don't end up posting it.

At the end of the day it's the issue that people don't want their race to be treated like a joke. I'm even a little surprised that not only was this faction originally "white boys" in the original Cyberpunk lore, but that they changed it the way that they did.

I must admit, it's far easier to assume that CDPR is tactless and potentially offending on purpose with their history. I don't feel comfortable making those kinds of assumptions without more context of the game, but I definitely respect that perspective. As many point out, it's the difference between just having something "in your game" and condoning/approving of it.
 

pokeystaples

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,757
You guys really have some serious problem with your brains. Someone, here it's Mike Pondsmith, made an universe with transphobic and xenophobic society which is set in future. No one cares you feel bad with shitting on transgender pepole in this game, IT'S A VIDEO GAME, AND IT'S A PART OF THIS UNIVERSE. It's not a real world. Oh, you don't like this universe? You don't buy it, simple as that. Eleven pages because someone is making their jobs right, good lord.
And you added to the page count. Strange choice but okay.
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,202
Correct me If I am wrong.
Shouldn't dystopian cyberpunk be full of racism,slurs and offensive stuff? This is downfall of social relationships, not sure why it should be pretty.
Not really as proliferation of things like mechanical enhancements and technomancy basically blur what it is to be human. In a truly cyberpunk future, people wouldn't have time to worry about what your race is because they'd be more concerned about whether or not the augments you can see are an indication of whether or not they're going to murder you. It's the crux of the transhumanist argument.

But I doubt the game is going to explore that in any meaningful way.

No it's more focused on class struggles
Eh, it's both, but you're right. It's more classism because the people in the majority of these stories don't want to be where they are, they want to be "over there" as "over there" are usually depicted as ideal places to live and thrive.
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,202
A sexualized ad in a likely rated m game oh no
I mean, real talk. Is this ad trying to be interesting flavor text for a cyberpunk dystopian society, or is it "that girl has a dick, ha ha".

Like, the idea of gene manipulation and gender splicing is a very interesting thing to explore in this type of setting...but you better handle it with care because that is a whole can of worms that most CIS white dudes are not equip to open.
 

TheMrPliskin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,209
This game has become a real monkey's paw deal. A big budget open world Cyberpunk RPG is basically dream game material for me and yet the more we hear about this the more I'm put off by it.

I can deal with bad gameplay but extremely uncomfortable stereotyping and their garbage transphobic tweets are indefensible
 

rashbeep

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,184
I don't see why this is an excuse for bad gunplay or melee systems at all. Alpha Protocol also had really terrible gunplay. You can have meaty gunplay and RPG-elements. Like increased damage with better gear, aim-assistance with better skills, elements and status changes and so on.
From looking at the game I can't say the gunplay is any worse than being serviceable

All it needs to be imo
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,202
It's like all sense of subtlety went out the window from their witcher writing
The witcher had subtly?

From looking at the game I can't say the gunplay is any worse than being serviceable

All it needs to be imo
Oh I'd say the only way it can get away with just being serviceable is if the rest of that world is an amazing thing to explore and interact with.

And if it's not...god help them.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,089
Not really as proliferation of things like mechanical enhancements and technomancy basically blur what it is to be human. In a truly cyberpunk future, people wouldn't have time to worry about what your race is because they'd be more concerned about whether or not the augments you can see are an indication of whether or not they're going to murder you. It's the crux of the transhumanist argument.

But I doubt the game is going to explore that in any meaningful way.
Feel s like a case of, "let's have this vision of Cyberpunk only taken from the most famous sources", even if they are 20-30 years old.

So it is works like The Diamond Age or Snow Crash which are the blueprint, but you can say they are outdated, since they saw a future that was even more racist than our own. Especially when the setting of the Diamond Age is a society culturally regressing with the help of technology.
 
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DoubleTake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,657
Eurogamer brought up the same complaints about the stereotyping, which I wish was the focus of this thread and not the gameplay.
Of course people focus on the gunplay and not the stereotyping. Because CDPR have shown their ass on that front multiple times with very little done to try and change people's perception. And so everyone who LOVES CDPR and wants to get the game will focus on gunplay because they know whatever bs they throw out to defend the stereotyping will be flimsy at best.
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,202
Feel s like a case of, "let's have this vision of Cyberpunk only taken from the most famous sources", even if they are 20-30 years old.

So it is works like The Diamond Age or Snow Crash which are the blueprint, but you can say they are outdated, since they saw a future that was even more racist than our own.
I mean the fun think about Cyberpunk as a genre, or rather as a structure, is that we can bolt on as much present day politics as we feel is necessary. I wouldn't call the ideals from some of the older instances outdated, it's just that their targets have switched. If you were trying to stay relevant to today's fears and woes, I'd say that there would be a far more fearful aspect of a spanish take over rather than an asian one, and things like birth rates would be front and center rather than corporate espionage.

So much of 2077 seems like it's not even cribbing from PK Dick, but specifically blade runner and Akira and that's....fine? But the more we find out about the game, the less it seems like a real nuanced cyberpunk story and the more it feels like GTA6: THE FUTURE.
 

LocoRoco

Member
Feb 22, 2019
139
how to make a dystopian world work without this kind of broken society thing ? all this "offensiveness" doesn't make part of the world building ?
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
8,799
Gunplay is surprising considering they brought in Remedy people specifically for the combat if I recall. But maybe the translation of straight up shooter to rpg requires certain modifications.
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,202
how to make a dystopian world work without this kind of broken society thing ? all this "offensiveness" doesn't make part of the world building ?
By focusing less on issues of the moment and more on issues of the future.

Or, even better, taking the issues of the moment an using futurisms to change how we think about said issues. It would be really sad if 2077 takes the concept of being able to freely and effortless change your biological sex and how that relates to internal gender, and relegate it to a quick bad joke.
 

SuzanoSho

Member
Dec 25, 2017
616
You speak for all black women? I assume it is a black voice actor playing the role, and therefore the mannerisms are authentic to the actor.
First of all, you REEEEEEAAALLY need to watch the video. Your assumption can't possibly be based on what was heard...

I've been around black women, including my mother, for 30 years. I've been around black people for 30 years. I've been all over the states, and have traveled abroad, and have literally never heard any black person period talk ***THAT*** way outside of stereotypical (and alot of the time, old) movies made by white people. I don't need to "speak for all black women", when my wife and every black woman I've shown that video to thus far finds it aggressively offensive...
 

Tatsu91

Banned
Apr 7, 2019
316
I mean, real talk. Is this ad trying to be interesting flavor text for a cyberpunk dystopian society, or is it "that girl has a dick, ha ha".

Like, the idea of gene manipulation and gender splicing is a very interesting thing to explore in this type of setting...but you better handle it with care because that is a whole can of worms that most CIS white dudes are not equip to open.
Thing is it's maybe distasteful for being so blatantly sexual but even if the person is trans including them would not be phobia sexist if anything else
 

Joey Ravn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,500
I'm not worried at all, since this is no shooter.
So, are you ignoring the second part of the the title or are you not worried about that either?

how to make a dystopian world work without this kind of broken society thing ? all this "offensiveness" doesn't make part of the world building ?
If so, what is the commentary here, then? "We can be racist and transphobic because it's cyberpunk"?
 

Oghuz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
485
I can live with mediocre gameplay as long as the other factors are good, but stereotypical representation of minorities is disgusting to say the least. A studio as big as CDPR should know better.
 
OP
OP
derFeef

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,540
Austria
how to make a dystopian world work without this kind of broken society thing ? all this "offensiveness" doesn't make part of the world building ?
With actual good writing.

I can live with mediocre gameplay as long as the other factor are good, but stereotypical representation of minorities is disgusting to say the least. A studio as big as CDPR should know better.
Hint: They got so big because they don't care, or even worse, enforce it.
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,202
Thing is it's maybe distasteful for being so blatantly sexual but even if the person is trans including them would not be phobia sexist if anything else
It is if they're included solely for fetishism though, which this...in a vacuum and without context, certainly is.

All we can hope is that CDPR has a plan for this. I just don't think they do and did it for "funny hahas".
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,409
Of course people focus on the gunplay and not the stereotyping. Because CDPR have shown their ass on that front multiple times with very little done to try and change people's perception. And so everyone who LOVES CDPR and wants to get the game will focus on gunplay because they know whatever bs they throw out to defend the stereotyping will be flimsy at best.
Feel like we need a thread reboot..

how to make a dystopian world work without this kind of broken society thing ?
By having good writing instead of appealing to the lowest denominator. So far the most commentary we've seen from the game is a single line about life insurance costs.
 

moustascheman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
807
how to make a dystopian world work without this kind of broken society thing ? all this "offensiveness" doesn't make part of the world building ?
Depicting racism doesn't mean that you need to make characters into offensive stereotypes. In fact, if you want to seriously tackle topics such as racism, you shouldn't use one-dimensional stereotypes for actual characters. If you're playing stereotypes straight you're not depicting or tackling racism, you're just being racist.
 

Almagest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
944
Spain
So much of 2077 seems like it's not even cribbing from PK Dick, but specifically blade runner and Akira and that's....fine? But the more we find out about the game, the less it seems like a real nuanced cyberpunk story and the more it feels like GTA6: THE FUTURE.
2077 looks to me like the Sprawl trilogy on steroids, basically, along with some aspects of other popular CP properties thrown in. Including all the edgy and stereotypical aspects of Gibson's work which were ok at the time but now can feel pretty outdated if you just transplant them to your own setting.
 

LocoRoco

Member
Feb 22, 2019
139
By focusing less on issues of the moment and more on issues of the future.

Or, even better, taking the issues of the moment an using futurisms to change how we think about said issues. It would be really sad if 2077 takes the concept of being able to freely and effortless change your biological sex and how that relates to internal gender, and relegate it to a quick bad joke.
But this is what a dystopian world mean to be, a place full of bad pll, bad choices, no respect, stupidit, bigotry and goes on, the "bad joke" is part od the world as a dystopian one

hopefully the game ll have some good messagem behind all this madness
 

rashbeep

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,184
Depicting racism doesn't mean that you need to make characters into offensive stereotypes. In fact, if you want to seriously tackle topics such as racism, you shouldn't use one-dimensional stereotypes for actual characters. If you're playing stereotypes straight you're not depicting or tackling racism, you're just being racist.
That's a good point
 

Franco_Tech

Member
Oct 30, 2017
871
So this game look like another Witcher 3, awesome in everything except the combat. I remember forcing myself completing the expansion because I got tired of the game play in Witcher 3
 
Waypoint impressions.

Hierophant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,322
Sydney

Austin Walker quite eloquently summarises my feelings pretty well about the game (at 3hrs:43mins), wanting to be excited about something that hits so many of my personal likes and interest points but there is that lingering feeling of the next shitty thing being right around the corner.
 

Claven

Game Localization
Verified
Aug 22, 2018
2,446
If that 20 minute video of Bloodlines 2 is representative, it is going to be even more of a mess than 2077.
I don't mind a bit if jank if the writing, representation and themes are good.

But I'm going to have a huge issue with a superbly polished game that is juuuust a teeny bit racist and transphobic.
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,202
But this is what a dystopian world mean to be, a place full of bad pll, bad choices, no respect, stupidit, bigotry and goes on, the "bad joke" is part od the world as a dystopian one

hopefully the game ll have some good messagem behind all this madness
Yes, but just because "they're bad" doesn't mean crass or stupid examples of characterization are fine. If anything, it gives you a large sprawling narrative framework to use that you wouldn't normally get to, something where you can take a lot of liberties and risks.

And then they go with calling the black gang "the animals".

That's poor man.
 

misho8723

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,227
Slovakia
But aren't campanies using sex to sell stuff? It was that way in the past, it works that way today and it's pretty much a given that even in the future marketing is going to be heavily driven by "sex sells", no? Like there are so many sexist and fetish ads and billboards in our cities, do you thing it's not going to be that way in the future? Racism was here from the beginning, it's still here - look how the US are still racist even in this days and it's not going to be away even in 100 years in the future.. of course, not excusing actual racism and transphobia and homophobia and such in the finished and released game