RPS: Cyberpunk 2077's E3 demo has weak gunplay and unimaginative stereotypes

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,373
I think the hypothetical question here might be if minorities are depicted in traditionally racist ways while whites are depicted as "normal," though still horrible criminals. Then the it's not racist, everyone's shitty argument dies on the vine.

And even if it's equally balanced stereotyping, it's like "if the story is about the presence of racism in a chaotic dystopia, why are you making the characters racist caricatures instead of just being racist people? Why is this the language of your commentary?"

Note: I have no idea if this is going on in Cyberpunk. I haven't seen enough of the story.
Yeah, I can’t say I disagree with anything you wrote.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,923
I mean they could always educate themselves by reading works of and talking to people who have extensively studied the subject? These companies do a ton of research into a million different things. Why not expect them to include this sort of stuff in that especially in a game dealing with a Cyberpunk setting. It's not exactly a huge ask. Fuck, just watch a few hours of Nick Cannon's Youtube show and even that tiny bit of effort ought to be enough to not be a complete fucking idiot in terms of racist garbage in your game. The internet exists. Not being stupid isn't as hard as some people try to make it seem.
Yeah, exactly. And I don't think they're taking it very seriously. Or at least, I don't think they're making a genuine attempt. I think with the Witcher they had an escape-hatch of "It's medieval Prussian fantasy setting!" (or whatever), so they could easily define their own rules and sort of ... evade a more critical lens. Now, they're losing that escape-hatch but I don't think they're willing to make a very genuine attempt at doing things the right way.

*Edit*

Oh, and I don't want to make it seem like my post was explaining it away or making excuses for htem. I was trying to show how I don't think they're taking accurate cultural representation seriously. I might not have made that clear so I'm going to edit my last post to make it more obvious.

Also I think companies that are making major mass market entertainment products need to do more than just watch YouTube videos, like, they actually need to hire diverse talent, and if they're not able to or unwilling to do that, then they need to hire outside contractors and consultants who can help them with it.
 
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Chairmanchuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
China
As a Haitian American, I am cringing at the eye-rolling gang name of "the Voodoo Boys." The tone of the tweet isn't doing me any favors either.
If I understood it correctly from Cyberpunk 2020 the Voodoo boys are mostly white people who are so obsessed with Haitian culture, they use body modifications to look black and use all the stereotypes to act as the gang, because they actually do not know much about the culture themselves.
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,822
Very very good point.

Pertinent as it gets in this case, think we need to all hold off until we play and feel it.

I actually remember thinking the gunplay looked just "ok" in the Destiny reveal trailers now that I think about it...hmm, great point!!
I mean that's not to say that you can't kind of tell that a game has janky, gun play or driving mechanics.

But using a demo behind closed doors to determine that a game has weak gunplay, without having played it. Seems dubious.
 

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
801
If I understood it correctly from Cyberpunk 2020 the Voodoo boys are mostly white people who are so obsessed with Haitian culture, they use body modifications to look black and use all the stereotypes to act as the gang, because they actually do not know much about the culture themselves.
That's part of the reason why I was cringing. The original idea actually had me fascinated, since I could see how a pre-dominantly white gang look and appropriate Haitian culture in a cyberpunk setting. Making them actual Haitians isn't even "on the nose" with subtlety, it's the equivalent of using a hammer to smash your nose and face in.
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,822
If I understood it correctly from Cyberpunk 2020 the Voodoo boys are mostly white people who are so obsessed with Haitian culture, they use body modifications to look black and use all the stereotypes to act as the gang, because they actually do not know much about the culture themselves.
Now this is a loop if i've ever read one. Wow

Now it all makes sense, they might have wanted to situation this in the demo or make it clear.
 
Oct 26, 2017
351
Im all for artists and creators to do what they want with their fake worlds and visions. Let them create what they want it’s for the better. Free world and all that.

You might not like it, that’s fine, don’t buy it. Witcher 3 didn’t have stellar sword play, but man it was such a good game anyway.
 

Stryder

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
966
US
People legitimately ignoring comments made by the developer is just hilarious.

The gang isn't just black people. And what if your character is also black? Does it still seem like a white supremacists fan fic to you?

Can we stop relying on conjecture and look for evidence first, like for instance waiting until the game fucking comes out.

This game is steeped in culture and different people along with different languages. It's different from Witcher.

It's a "free city" and a melting pot. Stop getting angry over nothing. Wait until you actually see what you want to get offended by.

Era needs to start recognizing extremism and just how many people are unreasonable and illogical on here.

You're going to kill black, white, brown, green, and orange people. You're going to get offended and you're going to offend others in the game. Why? Because you're in a fucking awful hellscape. You can't be in a hellscape without awful things happening and awful people being around. Also, the language is going to be pretty over the top childish and full of curse words because that's Mike Pondsmith's vision of his game he created over 30 years ago.
 

JakeNoseIt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,947
A lot of these posts that are like "man, you guys really want to hate this game," I just don't understand.

Like, if you want to buy the game and you don't care, nobody can stop you. Why do you care so much about telling us the feelings we are experiencing are wrong? There are plenty of places you can go to talk about what you like about it.
 

Chairmanchuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
China
That's part of the reason why I was cringing. The original idea actually had me fascinated, since I could see how a pre-dominantly white gang look and appropriate Haitian culture in a cyberpunk setting. Making them actual Haitians isn't even "on the nose" with subtlety, it's the equivalent of using a hammer to smash your nose and face in.
Is it confirmed they were actual Haitians in the demo?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,573
Yeah, exactly. And I don't think they're taking it very seriously. Or at least, I don't think they're making a genuine attempt. I think with the Witcher they had an escape-hatch of "It's medieval Prussian fantasy setting!" (or whatever), so they could easily define their own rules and sort of ... evade a more critical lens. Now, they're losing that escape-hatch but I don't think they're willing to make a very genuine attempt at doing things the right way.

*Edit*

Oh, and I don't want to make it seem like my post was explaining it away or making excuses for htem. I was trying to show how I don't think they're taking accurate cultural representation seriously. I might not have made that clear so I'm going to edit my last post to make it more obvious
Nah I got you. Was railing more about the general point than what you specifically posted. I'm disappointed that this stuff is happening on their end when it's honestly so easily solved. I'm a pretty dumb motherfucker honestly and even I understand basic shit from actively listening and participating in discussions that are outside of my own life experience. I'm sure well-paid writers on a huge video game production can do at least 25% of that which should be enough to not have the fucking "voodoo boys" gang in their game.

Completely agree that diversity in hiring is a much better solution to this, I just wanted to illustrate how easy it is to pass the ridiculously low bar set by this industry as a whole.
 

Antiax

Member
Oct 27, 2017
801
People legitimately ignoring comments made by the developer is just hilarious.

The gang isn't just black people. And what if your character is also black? Does it still seem like a white supremacists fan fic to you?

Can we stop relying on conjecture and look for evidence first, like for instance waiting until the game fucking comes out.

This game is steeped in culture and different people along with different languages. It's different from Witcher.

It's a "free city" and a melting pot. Stop getting angry over nothing. Wait until you actually see what you want to get offended by.

Era needs to start recognizing extremism and just how many people are unreasonable and illogical on here.

You're going to kill black, white, brown, green, and orange people. You're going to get offended and you're going to offend others in the game. Why? Because you're in a fucking awful hellscape. You can't be in a hellscape without awful things happening and awful people being around. Also, the language is going to be pretty over the top childish and full of curse words because that's Mike Pondsmith's vision of his game he created over 30 years ago.
Stop being reasonable.

Meanwhile here is a new screenshot
 

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
801
Is it confirmed they were actual Haitians in the demo?
I don't know. I followed what the original tweet in my first post was. If what was posted is true, than the Voodoo Boys are actual Haitians. Another post had a tweet that stated that the Animals were a mixed gang. There isn't much to go on, but I hope the former gang is still a largely white gang.
 

BabyMurloc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,083
It's like the less information there is, the bigger the outrage. The actual social/racial mix of the story is still pretty much up in the air, and people are already convinced it's a genocide simulator.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,573
Stop getting angry over nothing.
Well I'm glad you get to decide for others what counts as "nothing". Calm the fuck down and stop trying to shut down discussion just because you're not interested in it.

It's like the less information there is, the bigger the outrage. The actual social/racial mix of the story is still pretty much up in the air, and people are already convinced it's a genocide simulator.
Or you could post what is actually happening instead of misrepresenting people? One tweet (not even a post on this forum) called it a genocide simulator. Other people are reacting to and discussing their opinions of what that might mean for the game. What is wrong with you people, honestly? Are you shadow-arguing against imaginary posters or something?
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,794
People legitimately ignoring comments made by the developer is just hilarious.

The gang isn't just black people. And what if your character is also black? Does it still seem like a white supremacists fan fic to you?

Can we stop relying on conjecture and look for evidence first, like for instance waiting until the game fucking comes out.

This game is steeped in culture and different people along with different languages. It's different from Witcher.

It's a "free city" and a melting pot. Stop getting angry over nothing. Wait until you actually see what you want to get offended by.

Era needs to start recognizing extremism and just how many people are unreasonable and illogical on here.

You're going to kill black, white, brown, green, and orange people. You're going to get offended and you're going to offend others in the game. Why? Because you're in a fucking awful hellscape. You can't be in a hellscape without awful things happening and awful people being around. Also, the language is going to be pretty over the top childish and full of curse words because that's Mike Pondsmith's vision of his game he created over 30 years ago.
Stop being reasonable.

Meanwhile here is a new screenshot
Man, people are straight up overreacting in here.
It's like the less information there is, the bigger the outrage. The actual social/racial mix of the story is still pretty much up in the air, and people are already convinced it's a genocide simulator.
I'm real glad you all are here to tell both transgender people and people of color that they're "overreacting". And that you are praising yourself for being the 'reasonable' party.

/s in case it wasn't obvious.
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,325
People legitimately ignoring comments made by the developer is just hilarious.

The gang isn't just black people. And what if your character is also black? Does it still seem like a white supremacists fan fic to you?

Can we stop relying on conjecture and look for evidence first, like for instance waiting until the game fucking comes out.

This game is steeped in culture and different people along with different languages. It's different from Witcher.

It's a "free city" and a melting pot. Stop getting angry over nothing. Wait until you actually see what you want to get offended by.

Era needs to start recognizing extremism and just how many people are unreasonable and illogical on here.

You're going to kill black, white, brown, green, and orange people. You're going to get offended and you're going to offend others in the game. Why? Because you're in a fucking awful hellscape. You can't be in a hellscape without awful things happening and awful people being around. Also, the language is going to be pretty over the top childish and full of curse words because that's Mike Pondsmith's vision of his game he created over 30 years ago.
It'll be interesting to come back to this post next may.
 

Stryder

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
966
US
Well I'm glad you get to decide for others what counts as "nothing". Calm the fuck down and stop trying to shut down discussion just because you're not interested in it.
Nothing is fucking not having the game in front of you and listening to something off handed by someone who is stating something that isn't totally accurate according to a developer's statement about the gang, way to read everything else.
 
May 26, 2018
3,350
Nothing is fucking not having the game in front of you and listening to something off handed by someone who is stating something that isn't totally accurate according to a developer's statement about the gang, way to read everything else.
Can you link to the devs saying the Voodoo Boys are the same as in the source material? I haven't seen anything yet.
 
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derFeef

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,649
Austria
Is it confirmed they were actual Haitians in the demo?
From Eurogamer:

`The population is now largely black, and the major language is largely Haitian Creole. We're here to meet a man called Placide, of the Voodoo Boys gang, for a mission. We search for him in a nearby church, and an NPC, named as "Poor Man", comes up to us. There is some questionable dialogue - or rather, questionable subtitling - where the man's thick Creole accent is also written out in the subtitles, "they" as "dey" and "the" as "da" or "de". This is the same for nearly all of the Voodoo Boys and people of this area, and actully after you unlock a chip in-game that translates launguage for you, your software presents it as such - "la" in a foreign language still "da" in English. Later on, Placide mentions "they are coming", or something of that ilk, and our white male character asks "who is "dey"?".`
 

Antiax

Member
Oct 27, 2017
801
I'm real glad you all are here to tell both transgender people and people of color that they're "overreacting". And that you are praising yourself for being the 'reasonable' party.

/s in case it wasn't obvious.

Where did I say this? Why are you making things up? I'm not saying that anyone is overreacting. Tweet that making rounds here is straight misinformation. We don't know any details. Gang might aswell be mostly white.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,573
It'll be interesting to come back to this post next may.
In what sense? I'm pretty sure that if the game does a good job of representing social issues people will have no problem taking back what they say and enjoying the game on its own merits. Right now, we only have marketing to go on and the marketing has been spotty at best. Are we supposed to be time traveling mind readers or something? I don't get it.

Nothing is fucking not having the game in front of you and listening to something off handed by someone who is stating something that isn't totally accurate according to a developer's statement about the gang, way to read everything else.
We're talking about the current marketing of the game. What are you talking about? No one is claiming to have an issue with the full game. People are worried about current marketing indications of what the game might end up like. CDPR are clearly listening to the feedback as well, so what is your aim here? Making people shut the fuck up or something? Come off it and grow the fuck up.
 

Stryder

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
966
US
Can you link to the devs saying the Voodoo Boys are the same as in the source material? I haven't seen anything yet.
You mean about The Animals? The ones you fight against in the demo who it was claimed were all black people and you were gunning them down in a white supremacist dream scenario?

"As for The Animals, if you play through the game you’ll see that they’re not mostly black people, it’s mixed.” "
 

Elixist

Member
Oct 31, 2017
649
the shooting looks ok in the old video, i'm more concerned over the "dick tits" level of dialog going on, like the forced, stilted swearing of a 13 year old or something.
 
May 26, 2018
3,350
You mean about The Animals? The ones you fight against in the demo who it was claimed were all black people and you were gunning them down in a white supremacist dream scenario?

"As for The Animals, if you play through the game you’ll see that they’re not mostly black people, it’s mixed.” "
No, I mean the Voodoo Boys, who in the tabletop game were white people that kind of played stereotypes of savage Haitians. And in the game are now, apparently, black.
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,325
In what sense? I'm pretty sure that if the game does a good job of representing social issues people will have no problem taking back what they say and enjoying the game on its own merits. Right now, we only have marketing to go on and the marketing has been spotty at best. Are we supposed to be time traveling mind readers or something? I don't get it.
I just see a lot of people giving CDPR a lot of credit when it comes to some of the themes in this game and, now, here, a year out, I ask why, looking at their history.

But yeah, we'll see. Time will tell.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,573
I just see a lot of people giving CDPR a lot of credit when it comes to some of the themes in this game and, now, here, a year out, I ask why, looking at their history.

But yeah, we'll see. Time will tell.
Ah, I completely agree with you on that. I'm hopeful that they will steer this ship right because I have a huge passion for the social aspects of this setting but I'm not convinced that CDPR has done what they need to as of yet. Glad to be proven wrong once it's out, of course.
 

Stryder

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
966
US
No, I mean the Voodoo Boys, who in the tabletop game were white people that kind of played stereotypes of savage Haitians. And in the game are now, apparently, black.
I know nothing about that. If they were white in the source material I'm pretty sure there are white people in the gang in the game as well but from what I've seen the ones that were talked about were black. Gameplay that is written about should be revealed in two months so we'll know more by then
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,078
You brought up ‘genre staples’ and ‘hardcore racial stereotypes’. Not to speak on their behalf, but that doesn’t seem to be what they were asking.

Regardless, my issue is, you said that racism ‘would not’ be prominent in a transhuman society. While that’s certainly one way to build your cyberpunk setting, one does not automatically negate the other. Given Science/Speculative Fiction is invariably about the present through the ‘safer’ lens of a speculated future, it is perfectly within its remit to deal with one, the other or both.
The poster i was replying to implied that racism and slurs would be baked into the dystopian cyberpunk scenario by default, which is why i was bringing up that Racism and racial stereotypes are not staples of Cyberpunk, obviously authors are free to write them, but it's not a must have feature of the genre.

It was my mistake to imply, one form of discrimination would override the other one, what i meant to say was that traditional realistic racism would take a back seat to the new divisions, tensions and bigotry introduced by transhumanism themes.
 
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OP
derFeef

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,649
Austria
I know nothing about that. If they were white in the source material I'm pretty sure there are white people in the gang in the game as well but from what I've seen the ones that were talked about were black. Gameplay that is written about should be revealed in two months so we'll know more by then
See some posts above, Eurogamer threadmark.
 

BabyMurloc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,083
I'm real glad you all are here to tell both transgender people and people of color that they're "overreacting". And that you are praising yourself for being the 'reasonable' party.

/s in case it wasn't obvious.
I am reasonable, yes. I'll criticize the game plenty if it turns out representation is truly bad. But I won't do it on second hand snippets. What we've heard from the devs is quite acceptable to me so far.
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,373
The poster i was replying to implied that racism and slurs would be baked into the dystopian cyberpunk scenario by default, which is why i was bringing up that Racism and racial stereotypes are not staples of Cyberpunk, obviously authors are free to write them, but it's not a must have feature of the genre.

It was my mistake to imply, one form of discrimination would override the other one, what i meant to say was that traditional realistic racism would take a back seat to the new divisions, tensions and bigotry introduced by transhumanism themes.
Ah, okay. That’s fair enough. My take away was off. :)
 

TheMan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,412
As a Haitian...at least our existence is acknowledged in a game? I dunno, want more context before forming an opinion
 

Arthoneceron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,923
Minas Gerais, Brazil
Unimaginative stereotypes are the core of the Cyberpunk universe, even more if we consider that it's how Cyberpunk 2020 was written - I have the first edition which was released here in Brazil and the fact that most of the stuff is a compilation of Neuromancer and Blade Runner.

About weak gunplay, I don't know... CDProjekt Red isn't well known for a good combat, but the universe around it. I only hope that the quest system is good enough, like how they said in the extended gameplay trailer some time ago.
 

N.47H.4N

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,251
IGN also complained about profane language felt forced,and the comments sections was on fire because of that.I will play and judge by myself.
 

umop 3pisdn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,534


This is what this game has boiled down to for me. Defenders dismissing the complaints about the regressive undercurrent of CDPR and Cyberpunk 2077 because they're excited about the shiny toy.
This is my impression as well. And yet perhaps most damning of all, aesthetically it's not even very interesting! Cyberpunk 2020 was a product of its time (that time being 1988!), which puts us in fully regurgitated retro-futurism territory, extending even to the mechanics and mods at the heart of the game play, seeming like an antiquated conception of how we might in the future modify our bodies. And this is supposed to be happening in 2077? I honestly don't know what about it I'm supposed to find inspiring or cool, so far it just seems like kind of a mess or perhaps more of an attempt to avoid having to actually imagine a substantial future of any kind.
 
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Nightwing123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,661
Clarification on the Voody Boys issue.

Description of the gang in the tabletop RPG:



Representation of the gang in the 2077 game:
The More I learn about this game the More I'm disappointed by it. Not only is their a transphobic ad in the game but their treatment of PoC is and so far. Seriously the Voodoo Boys being white in the tabletop game but mostly Black in the video game is just so stupid and offensive.

This is why minorities need be hired More to avoid situations like this. Also, as person of color it annoys me to see some people say that we overreacting to this when they're the one's not going to be affected by stuff like this.