RPS: Cyberpunk 2077's E3 demo has weak gunplay and unimaginative stereotypes

Fjordson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,565
... and the fact that the Voody Boys in the soruce material are not even Hatians but white guys...
Someone at CDP must have felt really smart making them all Haitan.
Wait really? Uh..that's interesting. And not in a good way.

This also is making me think back to the white corporate lady with the silent black bodyguard from last year's demo.

I'd love for this all to be an overreaction because I've been dreaming of an open-world cyberpunk game for years, but I'm worried.
 

bunbun777

Member
Oct 29, 2017
971
Nw
That's not in Cyberpunk I think.
And if even, should everything be excusable because the setting allows it?
Well I found this in just a few seconds:

"Despite the biosculpting, tattoos, feather implants, and bones through their noses and ears, most members of the gang started as average white boys. Most are male, though female members exist as well. The females are often much worse, as they have twice as much to prove as the males. "

And then there's this too:


"This is a terrorist gang of drug dealers. They engage in weird magic rituals, and deal non-synthetic drugs to students near the University. Sadistic and pitiless, they will kill, torture, and rape for any reason or no reason at all. Victims will sometimes be warned with Chicken blood and feathers on their doorstep. Or not. Their motives and practices have no consistency. Mutilating and maiming victims is common, as is dissecting their body parts for rituals or to use to inspire terror. "

From the wiki.
 
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derFeef

derFeef

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Oct 26, 2017
4,626
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Well I found this in just a few seconds:

"Despite the biosculpting, tattoos, feather implants, and bones through their noses and ears, most members of the gang started as average white boys. Most are male, though female members exist as well. The females are often much worse, as they have twice as much to prove as the males. "

And then there's this too:


"This is a terrorist gang of drug dealers. They engage in weird magic rituals, and deal non-synthetic drugs to students near the University. Sadistic and pitiless, they will kill, torture, and rape for any reason or no reason at all. Victims will sometimes be warned with Chicken blood and feathers on their doorstep. Or not. Their motives and practices have no consistency. Mutilating and maiming victims is common, as is dissecting their body parts for rituals or to use to inspire terror. "

From the wiki.
Yes. I posted that before even. What do you mean exactly?
Again from the Eurogamer article: "The population is now largely black, and the major language is largely Haitian Creole. We're here to meet a man called Placide, of the Voodoo Boys gang, for a mission"
That's not white boys with biosculpting and tattoos.
 
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Giever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,008
Well, they confirmed a non-lethal run is possible, so hopefully a not racist one is too. It's how I'd like to play. Geeze.

:(
 

Dream Machine

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Oct 25, 2017
8,716
I would love to play a game that explores transhumanism and body augmentation and how that ability has changed gender/sexual/racial/ethnic identity and culture in the future, and I look forward to playing the game and seeing how these issues are handled in the context of the game and its world, but it would be great if they didn't have some idiot running their social media to make me question their motivations at every turn.

It's almost impressive watching them squander good will as soon as they accumulate it
 

xJavontax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
736
Illinois
People legitimately ignoring comments made by the developer is just hilarious.

The gang isn't just black people. And what if your character is also black? Does it still seem like a white supremacists fan fic to you?

Can we stop relying on conjecture and look for evidence first, like for instance waiting until the game fucking comes out.

This game is steeped in culture and different people along with different languages. It's different from Witcher.

It's a "free city" and a melting pot. Stop getting angry over nothing. Wait until you actually see what you want to get offended by.

Era needs to start recognizing extremism and just how many people are unreasonable and illogical on here.

You're going to kill black, white, brown, green, and orange people. You're going to get offended and you're going to offend others in the game. Why? Because you're in a fucking awful hellscape. You can't be in a hellscape without awful things happening and awful people being around. Also, the language is going to be pretty over the top childish and full of curse words because that's Mike Pondsmith's vision of his game he created over 30 years ago.
This is going to get ignored because it doesn't play into the narrative that the posters want
 

bunbun777

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Oct 29, 2017
971
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What I mean is that they are or were white guys. And the way in which the game depicts them is horrific. As to your question does the setting allow for the inexcusable? I would have to say no.
 

xJavontax

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Oct 25, 2017
736
Illinois
It's not getting ignored but it's also waving away the issues just because "the game is not out". What's wrong with criticizing what the see and read now?
Calling it a "white supremacist fantasy" because the enemies happen to be black is straight up hyperbole. We've seen V kill white enemies too.

Theres criticizing and then there's fear-mongering.
 

DarkLordMalik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,209
To be fair RPS is only outlet thus far to say gunplay looks weak. Every another outlet seemed to be impressed with gunplay and combat overall.
Not true. There is more.

"It's incredibly hard to say without actually feeling it, of course, but the gunplay here did look a little stiff. "

" In this case, far from isolated, we had the distinct impression that the trajectories of the blows, as well as the movement of the weapon and the subsequent collisions, were far from the technical levels reached elsewhere by the title and, more generally, by the current standard of the videogame panorama. A defect that, as far as the battle brought into the field a good range of interesting dynamics (different attack patterns and weak points to hit), it significantly affected the perceived enjoyment of the action on screen. Findings that also involve gunplay, characterized by animations, at present, still to be finished. Impressions a little different from those raised by the first demo shown by the team, with a more intense and engaging combative dynamism. There is a lack of climbing on the walls with blade blows seen in the first trailer, as well as smart weapons and many contextual animations, in the context of significantly more static gunfights."
 
Oct 27, 2017
744
Wait really? Uh..that's interesting. And not in a good way.

This also is making me think back to the white corporate lady with the silent black bodyguard from last year's demo.

I'd love for this all to be an overreaction because I've been dreaming of an open-world cyberpunk game for years, but I'm worried.
People keep saying that but it's wrong. They're mostly white guys; not all of them.
 
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derFeef

derFeef

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Oct 26, 2017
4,626
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Calling it a "white supremacist fantasy" because the enemies happen to be black is straight up hyperbole. We've seen V kill white enemies too.

Theres criticizing and then there's fear-mongering.
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything that was quoted? That tweet you seem to reference may seem harsh, but I don't feel competent on commenting how that person feels seeing the pictures.
 

Jombie

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
4,718
Alabama
I honestly don't get the hype it's garnering. It seems like CDPR has so much capital that anything they release is subject to hyperbole. They've released cinematics that are just that and a handful of art / stills and gameplay, which I honestly think looks uninspired. Then you have these tired stereotypes.
 

Fjordson

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Oct 25, 2017
2,565
People keep saying that but it's wrong. They're mostly white guys; not all of them.
Even then, that still feels weird.

Based what people have seen in the demo, they're now 100% black and based out of the rundown slums (rundown even by Night City's standards). And there's an instance of the protagonist sarcastically referring to their accent (specifically how they pronounce "they").

I'm not making any final judgments until I've played it, but I can't help but look at the game and CDPR with some heavy side-eye right now.
 

Shodan14

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Oct 30, 2017
2,514
I guess all the "CDPR doesn't understand cyberpunk" people also think the creator of Cyberpunk 2020 doesn't understand cyberpunk, because he's on the project.

It feels like a bunch of people want their own game rather than what already exists in the well-established Cyberpunk 2020 setting.
 

Uthred

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,901
That's not in Cyberpunk I think.
And if even, should everything be excusable because the setting allows it?
Skin tints and such were in the original tabletop RPG. Though as you say its not really excusable. Will "It's not racist its a skintint!" be the racist version of "Shes a 1000 year old dragon!"
 

monmagman

Member
Dec 6, 2018
1,166
England,UK
I think if we are all honest this game can never live up to the insane hype it has been generating for years now........I'll take serviceable gameplay if the rest is as fleshed out as it was in The Witcher III.
 

Phoenix Down

Member
Oct 29, 2017
153
I would really love for the new halo game to launch and be a graphical master piece like the original was on the first Xbox. The footage shown has me worried. I think if they can blow people away graphically , the buzz can come back.
 

Ravelle

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Oct 31, 2017
5,144
The Witcher is one of my favorite games even with the poor feeling combat, If everything else is top notch I'm fine with the shooting not feeling like Destiny or Doom.
 

Fjordson

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Oct 25, 2017
2,565
I guess all the "CDPR doesn't understand cyberpunk" people also think the creator of Cyberpunk 2020 doesn't understand cyberpunk, because he's on the project.

It feels like a bunch of people want their own game rather than what already exists in the well-established Cyberpunk 2020 setting.
Fair point on Pondsmith. One has to assume CDPR's vision jives with his. And I won't suggest that CDPR or Pondsmith have to alter that vision.

But considering the tabletop game will be 30 years old by the time this game is out, and that this is set decades after the tabletop game, I don't think some advancement / evolution in the setting would hurt.
 

Doggg

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Nov 17, 2017
3,157
It's CDProjekt Red. Don't expect stellar combat. Trashiness should be too surprising, either. This is the developer that made a game where you collect nude pics of hot chicks.
 

Shodan14

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Oct 30, 2017
2,514
Fair point on Pondsmith. One has to assume CDPR's vision jives with his. And I won't suggest that CDPR or Pondsmith have to alter that vision.

But considering the tabletop game will be 30 years old by the time this game is out, and that this is set decades after the tabletop game, I don't think some advancement / evolution in the setting would hurt.
I don't think he'd work with CDPR if their visions didn't match.

We've already seen the setting advance, but I think the people expecting this to make cyberpunk into post-modern cyberpunk set themselves up for disappointment. This is based around classic cyberpunk tropes not about reinventing it.
 

Fjordson

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Oct 25, 2017
2,565
We've already seen the setting advance, but I think the people expecting this to make cyberpunk into post-modern cyberpunk set themselves up for disappointment. This is based around classic cyberpunk tropes not about reinventing it.
It's seeming like that. Which again, fair play, I won't say they have to change anything to please me.

But it is a little disappointing given how much time has passed and where we are these days as a society.
 

Nightwing123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,661
People keep saying that but it's wrong. They're mostly white guys; not all of them.
Is this supposed to make what they did less racist, all they did is make a mostly white gang now mostly black. Not only are perpetuating racist stereotypes of black people but they're also calling a Haitian group Voodoo Boys. They should have just kept them mostly white instead of creating this mess.

As a PoC I definitely find this offensive and if you can't see how this is racist/offensive than....

I guess all the "CDPR doesn't understand cyberpunk" people also think the creator of Cyberpunk 2020 doesn't understand cyberpunk, because he's on the project.

It feels like a bunch of people want their own game rather than what already exists in the well-established Cyberpunk 2020 setting.
If they were keeping accurate to the tabletop game the Voodoo Boys would be mostly white and let's not act like the tabletop game did not have it's own problems.
 
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Shodan14

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,514
It's seeming like that. Which again, fair play, I won't say they have to change anything to please me.

But it is a little disappointing given how much time has passed and where we are these days as a society.
There's plenty of amazing games that take themes, settings and genres to new levels. Stuff like VA-11 HALL-A for cyberpunk. AAA will always take fewer risks than smaller games can.
 

Uthred

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,901
It's seeming like that. Which again, fair play, I won't say they have to change anything to please me.

But it is a little disappointing given how much time has passed and where we are these days as a society.
In many ways "classic" cyberpunk feels so dated these days that its largely like watching an action film from the 80's/90's (or the slavish modern homages to same). A product of its time. I suppose its inevitable as any speculative fiction set in the near future is obviously going to be heavily impacted by the radical speed of technological innovation. Classic cyberpunk sort of feels like planetary romance or ray guns and rocket ships, you can enjoy it for what it is but its all very much "genre work".
 
Oct 27, 2017
744
Is this supposed to make what they did less racist, all they did is make a mostly white gang now mostly black. Not only are perpetuating racist stereotypes of black people but they're also calling a Haitian group Voodoo Boys. They should have just kept them mostly white instead of creating this mess.

As a PoC I definitely find this offensive and if you can't how this is racist/offensive than....


If they were keeping accurate to the tabletop game the Voodoo Boys would be mostly white and let's not act like the tabletop game did not have it's own problems.

I'm black. I'm not arguing anything. I'm just pointing out a factual error that I think was based on the scan that I posted earlier in the thread. I have no idea what the racial makeup of the Voodoo boys is in the game. We'd probably have to see more than a cut scene or two to know so I won't form an opinion on that based on this.
 

Shodan14

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,514
In many ways "classic" cyberpunk feels so dated these days that its largely like watching an action film from the 80's/90's (or the slavish modern homages to same). A product of its time. I suppose its inevitable as any speculative fiction set in the near future is obviously going to be heavily impacted by the radical speed of technological innovation. Classic cyberpunk sort of feels like planetary romance or ray guns and rocket ships, you can enjoy it for what it is but its all very much "genre work".
This is very true. I love how in Shadowrun they keep having to low-key retcon current huge corporations like Amazon, Apple, Microsoft as long-lost subsidiaries of the current Shadowrun megacorps or how they had to redo the whole setting because ubiquitous wireless connections became a thing in the real world.
 

lupinko

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Oct 26, 2017
1,513
I don’t get how you can have weak gunplay, but every Witcher game has abysmal combat so go figure.
 
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derFeef

derFeef

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Oct 26, 2017
4,626
Austria
I'm black. I'm not arguing anything. I'm just pointing out a factual error that I think was based on the scan that I posted earlier in the thread. I have no idea what the racial makeup of the Voodoo boys is in the game. We'd probably have to see more than a cut scene or two to know so I won't form an opinion on that based on this.
Not sure if that is representative of that cutscene, but that person on the right does not look like a "white boy dressed as a Voodoo person"

 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,427
Witcher 3 combat wasn't the greatest but its still my game of the gen. At worst I think it will be similar to New Vegas with the gunplay not being the best, but everything else will be amazing.
 

degauss

Member
Oct 28, 2017
890
Like...you do realize that the reason why cyberpunk has Chinese/Japanese takeovers of western companies was because of the then fear of China/Japan (depending on the decade) taking over via business warfare? That element was never in there just because "it was cool"
Well it certainly is cool, and at least an honest attempt to be. And the reverse is true in say Japan, they put western type and elements on things in their culture because “it’s cool/different”.

And I think framing educated guesses about where future globalisation might lead, and what countries are likely to have influence, and a say in that future as some some dark/menacing/nefarious thing is incredibly dishonest. It’s broadly just a repsresentstion or what sci fi does, make future predications about outcomes. Why focus on FEAR?

What if Africa has an sudden huge economic boom, and a sci fi is made about about a future 50 years from now with lots of African influence on the streets and corporations of a future city. Would you be going “oh it has that African look and feel to represent the fear and negativity about a possible African takeover.” No way, if anything it’s the opposite. Or at least simply a tangible smart approach to take.
 

Icemonk191

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,396
I guess all the "CDPR doesn't understand cyberpunk" people also think the creator of Cyberpunk 2020 doesn't understand cyberpunk, because he's on the project.

It feels like a bunch of people want their own game rather than what already exists in the well-established Cyberpunk 2020 setting.
As history has shown creators have never gotten their own IP wrong. Not even once. Nope never.
 
Oct 27, 2017
744
Not sure if that is representative of that cutscene, but that person on the right does not look like a "white boy dressed as a Voodoo person"

Yeah, bruh but I don't know any of the context, okay? Maybe something changed? Maybe nothing has changed at all? Mike Pondsmith said that CDPR got/understood his world without a lot of unnecessary changes so at this point I'm taking his word for it. It's why he agreed to work with them.

As far as the disrespect of naming the gang "The Voodoo Boys". people should remember that these are gangs and their naming conventions aren't necessarily sensitive towards society's concerns. And this(last paragraph):

 

catvonpee

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Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,218
I can live with the guns not being great, that isn't what I'm here for.
I reached out to several freelance/ media people today and they all said the gunplay was good, and one even said, "...miles beyond any other open-world game." One said that it was hard to get a grasp on how good it was because they were watching and not playing... seems like it is going to be better than okay, if not great.

They all said the game is very gory which has me excited.
 

Loan Wolf

Member
Nov 9, 2017
1,124
i can't wait for the endless "gunplay sucks" comments for years after launch. everyone loves doing it for Witcher 3 "combat sucks". lol
Yeah my expectations for this game being good is based on how the RPG mechanics play out: If it's an immersive world where your decision-making leads to a series of notable consequences along with exploring the moral ambiguity of V and NPCs, then it's the 2020 GOTY for me.

Based on the 2018 footage shown, gunplay looks at least good enough to me. I'm hyped for CP2077 over the tech RPG mechanics and exploring themes of dystopia, transhumanism, and post-modernism. Folks are looking at the wrong game if they wanted a GOAT-tier FPS.
 
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derFeef

derFeef

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Oct 26, 2017
4,626
Austria
Yeah, bruh but I don't know any of the context, okay? Maybe something changed? Maybe nothing has changed at all? Mike Pondsmith said that CDPR got/understood his world without a lot of unnecessary changes so at this point I'm taking his word for it. It's why he agreed to work with them.

As far as the disrespect of naming the gang "The Voodoo Boys". people should remember that these are gangs and their naming conventions aren't necessarily sensitive towards society's concerns. And this(last paragraph):

Has been posted before, by me even. The source material is what it is, but CDP choose to handle it differently within the game.
What's with the tone? Can't we discuss this normally without getting called "bro" or worse?
 

Astandahl

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,299
People expecting top tier car control, gunplay etc... will be disappointed.

There is no way you can achieve perfection on all of these things in a game as big as Cyberpunk.