RTTP : Game of Thrones, I have a major pet peeve

Trafalgar Law · Mar 17, 2019

So as the big climax and finale of game of thrones arrive soon, i did an entire season rewatch, I HAVE A MASSIVE PET PEEVE , it concerns the high sparrow and cersei arc
this fucking scene has no meaning in the end

so Cersei kills them all, slaughters, the sept full of commoners and royals, she is hated by everyone and suddenly no one cares, no comparisons to the mad king
no one saying how this could be lead to consequences, the lannisters somehow easily defeat the richest hand in the land , martells written off quickly
I also really resent how the tyrells and martells were written off and potrayed in general
cersei blowing up the sept was a great scene but the true consequences of such a major action are not felt and barely referenced

I noticed something the show has changed in tone, after a show that was about the machinations of people and ability to play the game, it's become more about the spectacle and events, the most compelling villains and the smartest characters have died off or written into an uninteresting box ( tyrion and varys ), the show has become more and more frustrating and rewatch, season 7 almost feels like a completely different show , which for me has one of the worst scenes in the show , the super survivalist who is actually pretty smart and lives on self preservation, throws rock on a wright just trigger a big action scene, the writing now seems to we want a big spectacle, let's get there somehow at the detriment of story and established characterization often

anything else grinds your gears even more ?

Sande · Mar 17, 2019

GoT has been a (bad) GoT fan fiction for 3 seasons now. I'm probably a fool for hoping next season will rectify anything.

Rodelero · Mar 17, 2019

Game of Thrones S1-S4 are about as good as TV gets, S5 is plainly bad in parts, and while S6 and S7 regain quality, it doesn't feel like the same show. There's just a difference in pacing where it started to feel like they were rushing to conclude things and in doing so plotlines and characters get removed, or dealt with too hastily to allow them to properly make sense. As much as the budgets are obviously otherwordly, it's lost a lot of the magic that separated it from other properties. It still has its moments of course, but there's often a level of stupidity that gets in the way of my full enjoyment. The Dothraki and Daenerys attack on the Lannister convoy last season is a great example I think. The tension of the leadup, the realisation of Viserys' dream of having the Dothraki horde attacking a Westerosi army, the arrival of Drogon and Daenerys and the terrifying spectacle of what it can do. Then it all gets ruined by the contrived battle between Bronn with a ballista and Drogon, and the mother of all shit cliffhangers when someone (obviously Bronn) saves Jaime from certain death. It's still all told a good scene, but the ballista adds an unnecessary element of vulnerability to Drogon (who no-one in their right mind could believe would be seriously harmed), and Jaime's suicide charge (watched by Tyrion, no less) is completely absurd. Finishing it with the implication that Jaime was in real danger as he sank into the depths was just cheap, and completely beneath the quality of the series.

I'm still excited for S8, but I made my peace with the show's decline a while ago.

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

As with most of these stories, the point was not to serve the larger narrative, but to check off a character. The Tyrells are gone and Jaime gets a reason to leave that he has had for several seasons now.

If you watch this show enough you start to pick up on patterns where characters say one thing, and do another. Or how one character says the exact correct thing to solve the situation but no one listens.

It's just lazy and bored writing.

RDreamer · Mar 17, 2019

A dude who has never even seen snow being the one to have to run back to castle black as fast as possible to send a fucking raven halfway down Westeros to Dany who then has to fly up and find everyone yet she saves things in the nick of time has to be the worst writing in Game of Thrones by far.

Season 7 was ass all around. What irks me more is that most of the issues could be solved rather easily. It feels like no one really looked critically at the outlines when's D&D planned the season.

NuclearCake · Mar 17, 2019

Game of Thrones seasons 5-7 are all pretty much terrible as far as the writing is concerned and the only thing the show has left at this point is spectacle. This might of have been avoided had the books finished before production of the TV show began but as it is now, i'm afraid the show will forever remain frustrating and filled with missed potential. Great actors and spectacle can't salvage how rushed and half baked all these later seasons are. It's depressing.

Every single plot-line from season 4 onward has significant problems and the problems continue to get worse the longer the show went on.

Then you start going into all the stuff the show dropped from the source material and it basically becomes a mess.

At this point i'm just hoping for a decent final season at the very least but part of me knows that i will just leave disappointed yet again. With only six episodes left i can't imagine the final season not being rushed in some way.

Box · Mar 17, 2019

I'm expecting more action, bad dialogue. Lots of fast travel locations unlocked during the break. Tits.

SimonChris · Mar 17, 2019

RDreamer said:
A dude who has never even seen snow being the one to have to run back to castle black as fast as possible to send a fucking raven halfway down Westeros to Dany who then has to fly up and find everyone yet she saves things in the nick of time has to be the worst writing in Game of Thrones by far.

Season 7 was ass all around. What irks me more is that most of the issues could be solved rather easily. It feels like no one really looked critically at the outlines when's D&D planned the season.

My biggest problem with this is how wildly inconsistent it is with what happened at Highgarden, where Dany doesn't even learn about the attack until it's too late. Taking a fortified castle takes a long time. There should have been more than enough time to send a raven to Dany, so she could swoop in and save the day.

Moff · Mar 17, 2019

blowing up the sept was just a way to finish up quicker. there is no way this is in the books. they ran out of source material, realized they could not come up with enough good material for all the plots and characters and decided to wrap this up quickly with a spectacle.
given the quality of their own material, I also think it was the right call.

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

RDreamer said:
A dude who has never even seen snow being the one to have to run back to castle black as fast as possible to send a fucking raven halfway down Westeros to Dany who then has to fly up and find everyone yet she saves things in the nick of time has to be the worst writing in Game of Thrones by far.

Season 7 was ass all around. What irks me more is that most of the issues could be solved rather easily. It feels like no one really looked critically at the outlines when's D&D planned the season.

D and D writing session:

Advisor: "But sir, this doesn't make sense. I know you said time has passed, but..."

D and D: "You just have to trust the audience. There are so many characters left and they all have to die in the way they killed someone else."

Advisor: "I know, you told me that. But why is any of this happening? How does any of this have a cause and effect relationship? Why are there no consequence for any of this?"

D and D: "Fine. Just have someone say they know it better than we ever could. Have Djawadi write a really pretty song. Then get Sapochnik to direct. We're done with this shit."

Jombie · Mar 17, 2019

It became a crutch in season 5. It's just a way of removing plots or characters that no longer go anywhere, except with no consequences or character development beyond the characters involved becoming bigger assholes.

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

Hey, I've got an idea Olenna.

Hole up in your castle for like a week. It's like a fortress that literally towers over creation.

Have the superior Lannister forces lay siege to it. Send a raven to Dragonstone.

Then let Daenerys kill every last Lannister soldier.

zma1013 · Mar 17, 2019

'Member that time when the Frost King had a perfect shot to kill the dragon all the heroes were getting ready to escape on but instead decided to throw his spear at the other dragon way in the back?

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

Why does the Lannister army have the giant dragon-shooting crossbow when it was specifically designed to defend King's Landing and they were surprise attacked?

TheFuzz · Mar 17, 2019

Moff said:
blowing up the sept was just a way to finish up quicker. there is no way this is in the books. they ran out of source material, realized they could not come up with enough good material for all the plots and characters and decided to wrap this up quickly with a spectacle.
given the quality of their own material, I also think it was the right call.

I'm willing to bed she absolutely blows the sept in the books. It's the last 'Mad King' box that has to be checked, no way it doesn't happen.

Deleted member 21339 · Mar 17, 2019

zma1013 said:
'Member that time when the Frost King had a perfect shot to kill the dragon all the heroes were getting ready to escape on but instead decided to throw his spear at the other dragon way in the back?

What the FUCK was Jon doing in that scene?

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

The Dornish army is sad because Euron killed two women and now they can't sail even though they are not on an island.

What will they do without 4 random bastards who like to slap fight?

Jombie · Mar 17, 2019

JB1981 said:
What the FUCK was Jon doing in that scene?

Reinforcing what a moron he character has become.

Sande · Mar 17, 2019

Really enjoyed one of the most powerful families in Westeros being decimated during the cut at 0:53. What a satisfying conclusion.

And the explanation being "we're focking golden roses or whateva, can't fite for shite lol".

Jombie · Mar 17, 2019

Sande said:
Really enjoyed one of the most powerful families in Westeros being decimated during the cut at 0:53. What a satisfying conclusion.

And the explanation being "we're focking golden roses or whateva, can't fite for shite lol".

As stated earlier, the power of Highgarden is that they don't have to fight. It's also jarring that Jamie would put himself and a significant portion of his forces out in the open with Daenerys in Westeros, 3 dragons and an army of Unsullied and Dothraki.

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

Sande said:
Really enjoyed one of the most powerful families in Westeros being decimated during the cut at 0:53. What a satisfying conclusion.

And the explanation being "we're focking golden roses or whateva, can't fite for shite lol".

Let's wait in our castle with no way to defend ourselves for the ironborn to sail to Dorne and back after having openly rebelled.

THIS IS A GREAT PLAN

BDS · Mar 17, 2019

Remember when Cersei got arrested for fucking her cousin even though marrying your cousin is entirely legal in Westeros and Cersei's own parents were cousins?

Hollywood Duo · Mar 17, 2019

Yeah it's terrible. The only good part of that arc is the walk of shame which was very powerful and probably the last legitimately great thing they've done.

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

Remember when Euron Greyjoy admitted to killing Balon Greyjoy in front of his subjects and they cheered him?

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

BDS said:
Remember when Cersei got arrested for fucking her cousin even though marrying your cousin is entirely legal in Westeros and Cersei's own parents were cousins?

Remember when 16 year old Tommen Baratheon allowed his wife to be imprisoned in a dungeon for knowing about someone else's sex.

Tuorom · Mar 17, 2019

TheFuzz said:
I'm willing to bed she absolutely blows the sept in the books. It's the last 'Mad King' box that has to be checked, no way it doesn't happen.

Yea I think so. Then Jaime returns to double dip in madness killing.

Dream Machine · Mar 17, 2019

At least the acting is good.

The real problem is when the bad plotting/consistency meets up with not-so-good acting

Heshinsi · Mar 17, 2019

SimonChris said:
My biggest problem with this is how wildly inconsistent it is with what happened at Highgarden, where Dany doesn't even learn about the attack until it's too late. Taking a fortified castle takes a long time. There should have been more than enough time to send a raven to Dany, so she could swoop in and save the day.

Speevy said:
Hey, I've got an idea Olenna.

Hole up in your castle for like a week. It's like a fortress that literally towers over creation.

Have the superior Lannister forces lay siege to it. Send a raven to Dragonstone.

Then let Daenerys kill every last Lannister soldier.

I never thought about this, and now I'm mad at you too for making me ponder it perplexed. Looking at the map, highgarden is closer to dragonstone as well. Dany has Dragons and Dothraki riders, and the Reach never request reinforcement? Also, Highgarden doesn't have scouts at all, and don't realise a large army is invading their territory till they're out side the gates of the capital? I find it hard to believe Ned Stark wouldn't have know of an invasion of the North till the enemy was at the gates of Winterfell.

Border · Mar 17, 2019

I am still not sure why Tommen leaped out the window like that. He was never shown to be depressed or impulsive — not regarding something as gruesome and final as suicide.

It just seemed like the writers needed to get rid of him and couldn't think of a better way to do it.

Vas · Mar 17, 2019

Sande said:
GoT has been a (bad) GoT fan fiction for 3 seasons now. I'm probably a fool for hoping next season will rectify anything.

Facts. "I drink and I know things" was not when it died for me, as I know it was dead since Season 4, but It was when I realized there was no hope of it ever going back to what it was. Almost felt like a betrayal how bad the writing came to be. I have 0 hype for the last season, and I almost feel dread. But, I guess I have to see it through? Shit, maybe I don't.

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

Border said:
I am still not sure why Tommen leaped out the window like that. He was never shown to be depressed or impulsive — not regarding something as gruesome and final as suicide.

It just seemed like the writers needed to get rid of him and couldn't think of a better way to do it.

There are two suicides in this series. One involves a mother who burns her own child alive, and the other a son who had absolutely no way of predicting his wife would die, nor any deep love for her beyond just a sexual attraction.

Deleted member 17402 · Mar 17, 2019

I must be crazy because I find it incredibly easy to dismiss most complaints regarding the writing and inconsistencies as shit that people do in real life as well. - always falling short, not always making the best decision, and sometimes doing stupid things, no matter how respected the level-headed the person, is pretty much what I expect from anyone. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Walter White Walker · Mar 17, 2019

The one good thing is at least they're eliminating some characters on the show, although hamfistedly at times.
Meanwhile you've got George R.R. Martin continuing to add more and more fucking characters to the books instead of winding things down with just two books to go (that will never be finished it seems). Feels like he'll have to deal with the White Walkers in just a couple of chapters at this point.

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

TheFallenSaboteur said:
I must be crazy because I find it incredibly easy to dismiss most complaints regarding the writing and inconsistencies as shit that people do in real life as well. - always falling short, not always making the best decision, and sometimes doing stupid things, no matter how respected the level-headed the person, is pretty much what I expect from anyone. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Well, the show/book is at its core has an element of dispelling myths and subverting expectations. Jaime Lannister, the greatest swordsman alive who can't fight. Robb Stark loses a war without losing a battle. Jon Snow the bastard is a capable commander and prophetic warrior king.

However, the issue is not surprising things, but things that make no sense given time, space, character motivations, and logic.

In season 2, Renly Baratheon was killed by the shadow. His men save for the Tyrells defected to Stannis and the show took the time to explain the consequences of that death.

Since then leaders have been offed left and right with no explanation as to how their death affected their subjects.

-Roose Bolton
-Balon Greyjoy
-Doran Martell
-Trystane Martell
-Margaery Tyrell
-The High Sparrow

These are all extremely important people who died without a single commoner or soldier raising an objection. That is not merely failing, it's insulting your intelligence.

Vas · Mar 17, 2019

Speevy said:
Hey, I've got an idea Olenna.

Hole up in your castle for like a week. It's like a fortress that literally towers over creation.

Have the superior Lannister forces lay siege to it. Send a raven to Dragonstone.

Then let Daenerys kill every last Lannister soldier.

Lol, good point. Castles were like impregnable by conventional weaponry and military technology, we had been lead to believe. They aren't stormtrooper armor. IT couldn't hold for a few hours? In history, sieges would last for months and months. They were extremely expensive to do. If they could storm a castle in an hour they'd of course do it. A Gallic fort at Alesia was enough to force the invincible Legions of Caesar into prolonged stalemate despite having superior numbers and supply.

Border · Mar 17, 2019

Speevy said:
There are two suicides in this series. One involves a mother who burns her own child alive, and the other a son who had absolutely no way of predicting his wife would die, nor any deep love for her beyond just a sexual attraction.

Yeah I never really believed that Margeary's death would have been that devastating to Tommen. Is that what they were going for?

I'd like to think that he killed himself purely as a way of seeking revenge against Cersei (since he can be relatively certain Cersei knew about the upcoming explosion). But since Tommen immediately chucks himself out the window after seeing the Sept blow up, we are given no real insight into his state of mind. And we're just left with "Uhhhh, I guess he was sad that his wife died even though he can't be certain she was in the Sept."

zma1013 · Mar 17, 2019

Speevy said:
Remember when 16 year old Tommen Baratheon allowed his wife to be imprisoned in a dungeon for knowing about someone else's sex.

I thought the show did a decent job showing that Tommen was easily manipulated and afraid of confrontation. Anyone exhibiting even the slightest bit of authority to him could intimidate and influence him. It makes sense that he would do that.

Brucey · Mar 17, 2019

It feels like they write things in reverse order. They sit at a table and think "what would be a really cool action set piece?" Then they do whatever it takes to make the characters and world bend to make that set piece happen.

"Wouldn't it be cool to have an ice dragon?"

"Yeah... sure... but I don't think we can really make that happen in a believable way..."

"Oh... but... we already wrote it on the really big whiteboard... it's too late to go back now."

Deleted member 2802 · Mar 17, 2019

Trafalgar Law said:
So as the big climax and finale of game of thrones arrive soon, i did an entire season rewatch, I HAVE A MASSIVE PET PEEVE , it concerns the high sparrow and cersei arc
this fucking scene has no meaning in the end

so Cersei kills them all, slaughters, the sept full of commoners and royals, she is hated by everyone and suddenly no one cares, no comparisons to the mad king
no one saying how this could be lead to consequences, the lannisters somehow easily defeat the richest hand in the land , martells written off quickly
I also really resent how the tyrells and martells were written off and potrayed in general
cersei blowing up the sept was a great scene but the true consequences of such a major action are not felt and barely referenced

The people love Cersei now because they think that Dany is going to kill them all with the dragons/armies as most conquerors would do. So the only thing standing between their death by fire is whatever Cersei can do for them.

You have to think of it from a commoners perspective, not from Tyrion's POV where they are taking into account Dany's radical philosophy of no more slaves and not to rule by terror.

Most of those people are zero educated and they have no CNN or raven news. All they hear is what Cersei tells them or whatever rumors they hear from soldiers.

SofNascimento · Mar 17, 2019

Vas said:
Lol, good point. Castles were like impregnable by conventional weaponry and military technology, we had been lead to believe. They aren't stormtrooper armor. IT couldn't hold for a few hours? In history, sieges would last for months and months. They were extremely expensive to do. If they could storm a castle in an hour they'd of course do it. A Gallic fort at Alesia was enough to force the invincible Legions of Caesar into prolonged stalemate despite having superior numbers and supply.

You're mostly correct, although sieges being resolved quickly is a possibility. Treachery and deception, for example, are a more effective weapon than any battering ram. So you could take a castle quickly.

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

Brucey said:
It feels like they write things in reverse order. They sit at a table and think "what would be a really cool action set piece?" Then they do whatever it takes to make the characters and world bend to make that set piece happen.

"Wouldn't it be cool to have an ice dragon?"

"Yeah... sure... but I don't think we can really make that happen in a believable way..."

"Oh... but... we already wrote it on the really big whiteboard... it's too late to go back now."

We've never done a sea battle before!

"All right, so Daenerys' navy encounters some of Euron's ships on the water, and they engage in..."

NO, Yara and Ellaria are about to have sex! Theon is watching. Then Euron slams into the ship on a giant bridge. He's killing everyone with an axe!

"But how...."

They're shooting giant fireballs at all the Greyjoys! Get this, Nym gets hanged by her whip and Obara gets stabbed by a spear! Haha, people will love that. Now all the Dornish are dead.

"But why..."

Let's build that giant ship in the parking lot with the green screen wall! We've got ourselves a scene.

"Yes sir."

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

SofNascimento said:
You're mostly correct, although sieges being resolved quickly is a possibility. Treachery and deception, for example, are a more effective weapon than any battering ram. So you could take a castle quickly.

An 80 year old woman can see them coming from her window.

"Hey guys, let's close the gates. The Tarlys fucked us it looks like."

Rookhelm · Mar 17, 2019

The more I hear about "huge battles" or "biggest battle ever made for TV" or whatever is said the less interested I get

SofNascimento · Mar 17, 2019

Speevy said:
An 80 year old woman can see them coming from her window.

"Hey guys, let's close the gates. The Tarlys fucked us it looks like."

Well, they needed a cool shot...

Anyway, if we're going to get logical about this, siege warfare in asoiaf makes no sense. The fortifications in the both the books and the series are massive and way more developed than anything in the real world. And are we to expect they could be taken with the same tech and similar armies available in reality? One thing is Valyria with Dragons, another is the armies of Westeros wich are basically medieval ones. Castles in that universe should be unconquerable by assault. But we know that happened.

RustyNails · Mar 17, 2019

RDreamer said:
A dude who has never even seen snow being the one to have to run back to castle black as fast as possible to send a fucking raven halfway down Westeros to Dany who then has to fly up and find everyone yet she saves things in the nick of time has to be the worst writing in Game of Thrones by far.

Season 7 was ass all around. What irks me more is that most of the issues could be solved rather easily. It feels like no one really looked critically at the outlines when's D&D planned the season.

Some nerds hashed this out to 24 hours: time it takes from Gendry -> Castle Black -> Raven -> Dragonstone and a dragon flight back.

Still, Bran should have warged it and it would have made so much more sense than this convoluted effort. I bet GRRM said no to Bran warging.

Speevy · Mar 17, 2019

RustyNails said:
Some nerds hashed this out to 24 hours: time it takes from Gendry -> Castle Black -> Raven -> Dragonstone and a dragon flight back.

Still, Bran should have warned it and it would have made so much more sense than this convoluted effort. I bet GRRM said no to Bran warning.

Or just like...Daenerys is already at Eastwatch, she can't wait any longer so she leaves to see what is taking Jon and company so long to come back.

So many of this shows gaps in logic can be solved with no effort or extra expense.

RDreamer · Mar 17, 2019

RustyNails said:
Some nerds hashed this out to 24 hours: time it takes from Gendry -> Castle Black -> Raven -> Dragonstone and a dragon flight back.

Still, Bran should have warned it and it would have made so much more sense than this convoluted effort. I bet GRRM said no to Bran warning.

That's still a fucking ridiculous series of events. And again at best Gendry is running with heavy equipment after having been out for a while through the snow he's never seen before? For at least 26 miles?

Sure it could happen. Just like I guess Jaime could be saved by a few feet of water and then swept down stream but we all know they just want drama and don't care about logic anymore.

The super ravens and fast as fuck dragon just falls into question other things, like someone pointing out the unsullied failure against the Lannisters. I don't understand the danger of Dany scoping out much of the country and how her ships and battles are going if her dragon is fast enough to get all the way to the north in a paltry few hours.

It just also bugs me because there's an easy solution to everything. Mormont knows and was saved by Sam, a guy that knows and worships John. Have him tell Dany about his healer and make the connection there. She can still be a bit skeptical about things but ultimately torn and not go with on the hunt. Because of this though maybe she decides fuck it I'm going to monitor things on the dragon and that's how she sees them in trouble.

Use the characters and connections already there to push development and trust between them. Instead they want to use spectacle and implausible drama.

RustyNails · Mar 17, 2019

Speevy said:
Or just like...Daenerys is already at Eastwatch, she can't wait any longer so she leaves to see what is taking Jon and company so long to come back.

So many of this shows gaps in logic can be solved with no effort or extra expense.

I know! Which begs the question why they make stupid choices when it comes to writing. If layman can come up with simple sensible logic why can't they?

Doctor Doggo · Mar 17, 2019

Yeah. I've been much come to terms that the last season is gonna be awful and that's ok with me. We got some really amazing seasons out of the show

Biestmann · Mar 17, 2019

A bit of a tangent, but Vikings is suffering from the same issue and never was based on a book. Had great character moments for four seasons, then suddenly shifted in tone to requiring one big battle taking place every season final, putting spectacle over reason. And the further they went with that, the more hollow the spectacle and show felt. Now the show isn't good anymore. I feel the same way about GoT.

RTTP : Game of Thrones, I have a major pet peeve

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