RTTP : Zelda BOTW is now the gold standard for level design in open world Fantasy games

[Toriko]

So I recently returned to BOTW after so many months. I have a lot of problems with BOTW - Its mediocre combat, encounter design, terrible loot etc.. being some of them. However the world design in this game.... it is just freaking sublime. Its masterful construction of an overworld that makes you feel as if you are making new discoveries ( or atleast the illusion of it ) when you climb every other peak is masterful. It is the most perfect level design I have seen in a fantasy based open world.

The reason I say Fantasy based is because I do not think it is even fair to put games that have real world cities in there up to the same standard because it seems impossible for any one to use a similar design philosophy in a real world setting.

The genius in there who used the 'triangle rule' needs to be given a freaking raise and made to write text books. For those unfamiliar with the triangle rule -it refers to using triangular structures in the game's world that players can go straight over or around. The advantage in doing that is that it keeps obscuring and revealing the world in succession leading players to feel as if they are making discoveries as they go around or over the triangle.

It is a masterclass in open world level design and I hope more fantasy based games ( Horizon, Witcher etc.. ) copy. In a lot of ways it feels like the Elder Scrolls Skyrim formula but taken to the next level.

Say what you will about Zelda's shortcomings, there is no game yet released that provides a feeling of discovery ( even if the actual discovery is something shoddy like a stupid weapon that will break in a few minutes ) is unparalleled. It is the gold standard of open world level design that all fantasy games should aspire to imo.

Do you agree ERA?

 

[FiXalaS]

I agree

Monolithsoft's craft dude. bless em

 

[Kuro]

The exploration and world is what kept me from finding the game a mediocre Zelda. Its that good.

 

[takriel]

Agreed. Other open-world games feel so devoid of exploration incentives.

 

[MegaMix]

To me it's the standard in open-world design period. Instead of Hyrule being a vast desert filled with "side quests" it's an actual world to explore and interact with that is carefully crafted. It's basically the overworld of smaller more traditional games, but huge and massive, yet has the same quality check. That $100 million budget didn't come from flashy effects or cutting edge tech, but instead finely crafting the overworld to be as fun and enjoyable as possible. Hyrule is just "fun" to run around in and explore.

 

[Xx 720]

Agree 100%. Actually, kind think sales wise they would come out ahead making the Switch lead for the next mainline FF with enhanced 4k ports to the other consoles/pc. If they don't, it's going to hurt sales potential in Jpn.

 

[The perfect Dark]

It's the best open world ever created. Why? Beause it's not about side quests, leveling up, loot or combat. It's about the open world itself and how to approach different situations

 

[Toriko]

To me it's the standard in open-world design period. Instead of Hyrule being a vast desert filled with "side quests" it's an actual world to explore and interact with that is carefully crafted. It's basically the overworld of smaller more traditional games, but huge and massive, yet has the same quality check. That $100 million budget didn't come from flashy effects or cutting edge tech, but instead finely crafting the overworld to be as fun and enjoyable as possible. Hyrule is just "fun" to run around in and explore.

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I def would not go that far. I cannot see how this design philosophy works in a future GTA game for example.

 

[Aprikurt]

Yep replaying the game with the DLC and it's beautiful. It scratched an itch for me that Red Dead 2, with all its pomp and presentation just couldn't achieve.

 

[Haze]

The world is literally alive. Alive in the sense that because of all the interlocking mechanisms in play, it may as well be a living, breathing thing.

 

[Juke Joint Jezebel]

The overworld design and the glue that holds it all together is top fucking notch and what kept me hooked. It's just a shame that the level design falters at the main dungeons for me. Hyrule Castle was the big standout for me, the Zora and Gerudo temples are great, the Rito temple was merely okay, and the Goron temple was one big overly-easy torch lighting puzzle. My experience with them was incredibely uneven. Hopefully the next game in the series considers taking a slightly more traditional return to dungeon design, or refines and improves on the current blueprint tenfold.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I understand why folks love BotW world, but it felt slightly barren. Trying to think of a better way to not just say "empty" because that is too strong/negative. I know what the team was going for. It simply didn't work for me one way or other.

 

[Artdayne]

It's done very well but the gold standard was set in 2001 when Gothic was released.

 

[fourfourfun]

I fear it has now ruined all other 3D Zelda games for me, such is what it has achieved. It's sense of world building is unparalleled, but it also matches this with the sheer joy of traversal. There are few games I've played where the simple task of moving your character is such a pleasure. Also, its structure is incredibly respectful of your time. Whether you are playing for 15 minutes or 5 hours, there is something there for you to be invested in and achieve.

 

[Noppie]

That one talk on how Nintendo built the world, I think at a GDC, that impressed me so much. Every little part was thought out and it really works.

I agree it is.

 

[Deleted member 2254]

They definitely did an impressive job of making an exciting, living, surprising and eventful world, despite having large empty spaces full of nothingness. Much is thanks to the artstyle, the detailed grass, the nature in general, the fun traversal. If, say, GTA or Assassin's Creed had maps with this much empty space percentage-wise they'd feel pretty horrible, and in fact a game like Just Cause 2 with its massive map had some excellent moments, but also miles and miles of fairly useless traversal in the process with nothing to see or do inbetween.

I really have to get back to this game, I only completed a few areas but I definitely enjoyed what I played.

 

[Deleted member 3017]

It's great, because it uses Disney Imagineering's Wayfinding in Themed Design ("Weenie" design) to signpost dozens and dozens of easily visible landmarks throughout the world, which makes the use of the in-game map almost wholly optional and rarely a requirement for meaningful exploration. The triangle rule is a really brilliant spin and expansion on this design philosophy.

http://theoryofthemeparks.blogspot.com/2015/08/wayfinding-in-themed-design-weenie.html

 

[CaptainKashup]

Nah, that title goes to RDR2.

Now I'm gonna get utterly destroyed for this.

 

[Ayirek]

Now imagine this kind of incredible exploration and emergent gameplay in a game that has actual Zelda dungeons. They could be built right into the world.

Yeah, BotW is the most purely fun game I have ever played, and the systems could still be built on. I'm really looking forward to its follow up.

I understand why folks love BotW world, but it felt slightly barren. Trying to think of a better way to not just say "empty" because that is too strong/negative. I know what the team was going for. It simply didn't work for me one way or other.

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As someone who found all 900 korok seeds, 120 shrines (base game) and 100% locations on the map, it's only barren of you don't pay attention. There are almost always secrets to be found no matter where you are. But unlike many other games in the genre, these secrets are either korok seeds or some small detail. Skyrim, for example, is littered with caves, barrows, etc. Dungeons to explore. That might be why hyrule feels empty by comparison.

 

[MegaMix]

I def would not go that far. I cannot see how this design philosophy works in a future GTA game for example.

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GTA is a bit of a different type of open-world game as it's a full sandbox.

I was really glancing at games like Metal Gear Solid V (which is literally a desert) and games that follow Ubisoft's open world design.

The overworld design and the glue that holds it all together is top fucking notch and what kept me hooked. It's just a shame that the level design falters at the main dungeons for me. Hyrule Castle was the big standout for me, the Zora and Gerudo temples are great, the Rito temple was merely okay, and the Goron temple was one big overly-easy torch lighting puzzle. My experience with them was incredibely uneven. Hopefully the next game in the series considers taking a slightly more traditional return to dungeon design, or refines and improves on the current blueprint tenfold.

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Yeah, the dungeons were the one thing where the game suffered. I mean the shrines were great, but all of the main dungeons paled in comparison to pretty much every other 3D Zelda.

To be fair it's suppose to be a different Zelda game but...eh....

 

[fourfourfun]

I understand why folks love BotW world, but it felt slightly barren. Trying to think of a better way to not just say "empty" because that is too strong/negative. I know what the team was going for. It simply didn't work for me one way or other.

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I find that is due to the standard of other open world games all coming from the same template. If we take (the very good) Skyrim for example, as you walk around, the game is throwing up markers, "hey! Point of interest over here!" suggestions. It's mechanic is based around giving the player reward with milestones, encapsulated game play nuggets. BOTW simply presents you with a world and says "and how you go enjoy yourself". No treats or rewards given from the game, you are expected to bring your own motivation and reward structure to the game. It is that which allows the game to be so many things for so many different people. Universal.

 

[fourfourfun]

I def would not go that far. I cannot see how this design philosophy works in a future GTA game for example.

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GTA fundamentally would have to change. It is based around going to places and triggering story. There is an illusion of freedom within its linearity. Sure, you can play between beats, but fundamentally your objectives are GPS locked in order.

 

[Khanimus]

It felt like a fucking adventure. Climbing mountains felt treacherous and labyrinthine. Every new vista was just beautiful. Hell, the castle just being visible from nearly everywhere just always felt ominous, and every time I passed it made it feel like Frodo and Sam getting too near the Black Gate.

 

[Lotus]

Nah, that title goes to RDR2.

Now I'm gonna get utterly destroyed for this.

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Well when you ignore the OP and title emphasizing the word "fantasy", it'd be well deserved...

 

[Ayirek]

GTA fundamentally would have to change. It is based around going to places and triggering story. There is an illusion of freedom within its linearity. Sure, you can play between beats, but fundamentally your objectives are GPS locked in order.

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Any narrative driven game is this way. Which is why BotWs story is so sparse. To make the game as open as it is, the story has to be as non intrusive as possible. Non linear and open world aren't the same thing. BotW might be the first truly non linear game I have ever played. I mean, hell, in Zelda 1 you still had to go through all 8 dungeons before facing Ganon, and three dungeons are locked behind other dungeons items.

 

[Poimandres]

Agree 100%. Actually, kind think sales wise they would come out ahead making the Switch lead for the next mainline FF with enhanced 4k ports to the other consoles/pc. If they don't, it's going to hurt sales potential in Jpn.

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Why would that hurt sales potential? If the Switch version is functionally the same as the other versions, with scaled back graphics and maybe a couple of other things I don't see how worldwide sales would be negatively impacted.

If you care about the downgraded stuff you'll buy one of the other versions. If you don't, there's a rock solid portable version.

Using the lowest powered platform as the lead will almost certainly short change the other platforms. Why would anyone want that?

 

[ckareset]

Probably but the world is still empty and traversal too slow/tedious.

Also they gamified it by putting shrines everywhere. A true masterwork would be putting actual dungeons/rewards in the world. Maybe next time

 

[Lotus]

Probably but the world is still empty and traversal too slow/tedious.

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This game has one of my favorite methods of traversal, especially compared to most open world games where the traversal options are severely lacking.

 

[Lupercal]

I wouldn't say the best but top 5 easily.

 

[Xx 720]

Why would that hurt sales potential? If the Switch version is functionally the same as the other versions, with scaled back graphics and maybe a couple of other things I don't see how worldwide sales would be negatively impacted.

If you care about the downgraded stuff you'll buy one of the other versions. If you don't, there's a rock solid portable version.

Using the lowest powered platform as the lead will almost certainly short change the other platforms. Why would anyone want that?

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This way they could max out the Switch version, then upgrade textures and resolutions for uhd versions, you get the best of both world, everyone wins.

 

[night814]

The freedom to explore is the biggest thing, you can climb anything and use it either as a stepping stone or an advantage in battle. Playing other open world kind of games after BotW is difficult at first because you want to stray off the path or climb higher to see if you can find anything.

 

[ckareset]

This game has one of my favorite methods of traversal, especially compared to most open world games where the traversal options are severely lacking.

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The traversal is good, the speed is not. And the stamina wheel is tedious

 

[CaptainKashup]

Well when you ignore the OP and title emphasizing the word "fantasy", it'd be well deserved...

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Oops.
Yeah, the word fantasy kind of slipped out of my mind. Oh well..

 

[Lotus]

The traversal is good, the speed is not. And the stamina wheel is tedious

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I can agree concerning the stamina wheel. At the very least, was quite annoying that it was tied to sprinting. Speed-wise, didn't have an issue with the traversal.

 

[Deleted member 45414]

Don't really think the open-world part of BOTW is all that amazing...

What is amazing is the alchemy-engine and that they fully embraced building sandbox mechanics that could interact with each other, that's what raises BOTW above the rest.

 

[Prof Bathtub]

I agree

Monolithsoft's craft dude. bless em

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They were a big help, but let's not downplay the work of the design/art leads working at Nintendo. Looking through the past work of some quoted in the artbook, we can see the lead structural artist (Manabu Takehara) worked as a course designer on Mario Kart 8, as well as did design work for NintendoLand, FFXIII and Kingdom Hearts II. Plus the ex-Sonic Team members previously discussed (senior lead landscape artist Makoto Yonezu, for one.)

 

[Keldroc]

Don't really think the open-world part of BOTW is all that amazing...

What is amazing is the alchemy-engine and that they fully embraced building sandbox mechanics that could interact with each other, that's what raises BOTW above the rest.

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Yeah, this. The open world itself is fairly unremarkable, and almost wholly devoid of anything to actually do. It's how the sandbox systems work together that make it something special, and they don't require an open world to do that.

 

[Banzai]

I know not every game is for everyone but I do not get the overwhelming praise for BOTW's world. I don't see the difference to any other open world I've ever played.

Is it the climbing? That was kinda cool, but I've seen funner traversal gameplay. The glider is neat.

I never saw any point in exporing beyong getting the shrines and map towers, which I just beelined to by climbing. That in turn kind of invalidates any world design to me. Why walk up some random road when I can just (slowly) climb there? And the game not having xp I never saw any reason to fight monsters or do sidequests. Were there really fun sidequests I simply missed? The ones I've seen were fairly standard open world stuff. Find this place, get this item, yadda yadda.

After the 4 beasts and getting the master sword I just did the end fight because I wanted to be done with it.

Again, maybe it's not for me, but I really don't see anything special in the game's world. Like, at all.
I can kinda see why people proclaim god of war and read dead to be "the best ever" without agreeing, but the love for this games open world straight up puzzles me. I'm probably just piling on with complaints people hear all the time. It just really grates me how little I...get it.

 

[sredgrin]

It fits that game, I don't think it fits something like your example of the Witcher when it deals with so many people and different stories.

Games like the next Elder Scrolls should absolutely be learning from it though.

 

[Lotus]

Is it the climbing? That was kinda cool, but I've seen funner traversal gameplay.

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Climbing on its own isn't really what I'd describe as "fun". It's more that it's this very simple concept that makes an open world infinitely less daunting to explore. So many times I find myself in an open world, like with RDR2 recently, but I can't go down a cliff or something, lest I fall to my death. Or maybe I notice that I could get to my destination much faster if I could climb up something, but the game doesn't allow me to do that, so I have to travel the "normal" way. Climbing in BoTW means that virtually nothing (shrines excluded) is off-limits, that you can make your own shortcuts, etc., and in that in turn makes a world of difference in making it not a slog to explore an open world. Especially when used in conjunction with the paraglider.

 

[KORNdog]

It's not what I look for in an open world to be honest. So it's hard to agree. I think there needs to be value in the exploration it is encouraging you to do, and there is very little in BOTW. And it's loot system/weapon system and dumb ass stamina system didn't exactly help in this regard either. It's a LOT like Skyrim tbh, that game suffered the same issues. It trivialised loot and weapon crafting making exploration largely redundant.

Games need to give me a reason to explore. Not just dangle a carrot of promises only to be disappointed time and time again.

I think a sequel will be closer to what I'd consider good open world design though...assuming they improve on things and don't just release the same game under a different name.

 

[The_Ultima]

Yes, I agree. After +180h I´m aware that the feeling of constant discovery is more of an illusion. Nonetheless, the feeling is still there. And it took many, many, MANY hours for me to realize that it´s an illusion more often than not. I will forever remember playing the game on the great plateu, leaving it and exploring the world for the next 50hours making relevant discoveries like the mazes, the dark ruin or eventide island and many more. Even after +100h, thinking that now I have seen it all, there still were surprises left, both small and big ones. E.g. I have totally forgotten about those sand monsters we saw in the trailers and only run across one after having finished all four divine beasts when reaching the 120h-mark. That feeling that there may be something on the very edge of the map... it´s amazing. I really can´t wait to see where the series goes next.

Nah, that title goes to RDR2.

Now I'm gonna get rightfully destroyed for this because I´m drive-by posting, not contributing to the discussion

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FTFY

 

[texhnolyze]

What, you want other open world devs copy the small towns and villages filled with very little life BOTW has? Sorry, but no.

BOTW indeed has great open world design, but it has a totally different focus from the likes of The Witcher 3, RDR2, and AC Odyssey.

There shouldn't be a golden standard, let the devs do their own thing.

 

[Deleted member 8166]

Probably but the world is still empty and traversal too slow/tedious.

Also they gamified it by putting shrines everywhere. A true masterwork would be putting actual dungeons/rewards in the world. Maybe next time

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I think you and I played two different games. never was I somewhere, where I did not find something hidden, travel was as fast as I wanted it to be, I mean you can glide, you can ride, run, or transport.

Climbing on its own isn't really what I'd describe as "fun". It's more that it's this very simple concept that makes an open world infinitely less daunting to explore. So many times I find myself in an open world, like with RDR2 recently, but I can't go down a cliff or something, lest I fall to my death. Or maybe I notice that I could get to my destination much faster if I could climb up something, but the game doesn't allow me to do that, so I have to travel the "normal" way. Climbing in BoTW means that virtually nothing (shrines excluded) is off-limits, that you can make your own shortcuts, etc., and in that in turn makes a world of difference in making it not a slog to explore an open world. Especially when used in conjunction with the paraglider.

Click to shrink...

right after BOTW I played HZD. now I could not finish it because the motion blur gave me nausea, but I played like 10 hours. in those 10 hours the most annoying thing was that I could not just climb over the mountain tops.

I know that HZD and BOTW are two different kind of open world games. but it just felt strange coming from the freedom of BOTW.

 

[Lotus]

What, you want other open world devs copy the small towns and villages filled with very little life BOTW has? Sorry, but no.

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He didn't say that.

 

[fourfourfun]

Probably but the world is still empty and traversal too slow/tedious.

Also they gamified it by putting shrines everywhere. A true masterwork would be putting actual dungeons/rewards in the world. Maybe next time

Click to shrink...

The shrines are vital on two fronts, and it is portability that reaps the benefit. If you are having a commute session and your objective for your time is not traversal, then you have multiple locations around the map to get you to whatever you want to be doing pretty much immediately. Also, you have these encapsulated game play experiences that last 5-15 minutes that allow you to have an achievable objective in small sessions. For what it's worth, I often spent at home sessions trawling the world unlocking shrines to tackle on the train. On the flip, I've had games like Skyrim, Fallout or even Elite Dangerous, where I've poured an hour of time in and have achieved nothing.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

It was a remarkable experience crafted to experience on our own.
I'm looking forward for the next iteration,
What world I will be exploring?
What mechanics I would praise or curse?
What secrets and dangers this world hides?

Man I pumped although we know nothing.

 

[Couscous]

The feeling or rather sense of discovery is amazing, but the actual discoveries become a bit monotonous, because 95% of what you find are samey enemy camps, shrines and korok seeds. There's very little variation in the discoveries themselves. If they change that, the fetch quests and improve the combat a bit, then the sequel will be a 10/10 GOAT tier for me. The story could also be better actually.

 

[ckareset]

I think you and I played two different games. never was I somewhere, where I did not find something hidden, travel was as fast as I wanted it to be, I mean you can glide, you can ride, run, or transport.

Click to shrink...

I want to run faster. Glide faster. And in a world smaller and not devoid of things due to being a post apocalyptic universe.

Great game, but an absolute chore

 

[Deleted member 426]

Really beautiful game, and exploration was great, but it was so barren like most open world games. I wish someone would make an open world which felt like a rich living world rather than a really nice field.