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Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,885
How do they determine this kind of thing generally. Do they do a poll internally among employees? The Dex leak was recent so did they run a poll recently? Do they see an event that might be a negative then run a poll about how they feel about said negative? I have so many questions about how this is all learned.

I think this game will sell incredibly well and hopefully that will remedy the disappointment they are feeling currently.
 

Antoo

Member
May 1, 2019
3,786
It's ridiculous how the term "toxic fanbase" is thrown around like crazy in these Pokémon threads. There's always a few bad apples but most of the criticism surrounding the game has been understandable and also well-reasoned. Most people aren't attacking the developers at all and are just voicing their opinions.

It's nowhere near an actual toxic fanbase like Star Wars where organized harassment occurs or false, dangerous narratives. That fanbase actually created a cesspool community of people who feed on negativity.
 

hibikase

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,820
Toxic fanbases like this one's are a big part of why I don't participate in this forum much anymore. Just too much armchair game dev and bad faith arguments.
 

Mory Dunz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,398
Do you ever want to sleep so bad that you're immediately forced to give a take?


just wanted to make this joke.
leaks can stink for devs, but it's dumb on GFs part for not even showing starter evolution this late like really? so eh, whatever.
 

Deleted member 31092

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
10,783
Without having any hindsight on how accurate this rumor is, and without knowing why the moral is low, every "faction" simply sping this to fit their narrative.







Regardless, I'm sure the moral will improve once the game sells 16+m copies as usual.
 

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
I'm still getting the game, I've just been disappointed in the direction Masuda and Ohmori have been taking the franchise for ages. There's a lot of exciting stuff about sword and shield, but that doesn't negate how disappointing some aspects of it are or mean I shouldn't be allowed to express the choices they made that I dislike
You said they were not listening to fans, I call you out on this because it is wrong. They are listening, thing is they won't/can't implement everything especially since every part of the fanbase don't want the same things.
 

DongBeetle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,017
-people relentless shit on your games and studio as whole, usually undeservedly
-game leaks weeks in advance, spoiling some amazing designs
can't blame em
What criticisms towards the game are undeserved exactly? Is it undeserved because This multimillion dollar franchise is one of your favorites?
 

Deleted member 3815

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,633
Friendly reminder that a 2006 DS game has more Pokémon than a 2019 Switch game.

Oh my god. 🤦‍♂️

Diamond and Pearl was a top down 2D sprites with basic 3D overworld game for the DS. Sword and Shield is a HD, their first one one, with full 3D models for the Pokémon, human characters, 3D overworld. The Pokémon counts had also increased a lot since Diamond and Pearl.
 

Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,781
It's debatable that they even need to win back fans at all, let alone the true reason for that.
People are just trying to push a narrative with zero facts.
We dont have any hard numbers on exactly how many fans were alienated because of dexit, but Pokemon discussion everywhere is more toxic than ever. Like incredibly so. Theres no doubt that the playerbase is pretty split right now.
I'm sure they're frustrated with a couple different aspects of the current situation. Not just fan requested things that were cut/not included but the management decisions that lead to them too. And I'm sure there are some team members that wish there were more hours in a day to get the fan requested stuff in.

Its tough to work on a very public product and not be able to do anything about perceived issues and/or missed opportunities on your own. You need management to approve things and then the whole ship has to turn in unison.
Yeah... the Pokemon dev cycle is so tight that theres basically nothing they can do if fans (or themselves) dont like any of the major features. Theres just nothing they can do about dexit or the lack of postgame due to management, and they keep receiving complaints about those two things the most.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,818
Oh my god. 🤦‍♂️

Diamond and Pearl was a top down 2D sprites with basic 3D overworld game for the DS. Sword and Shield is a HD, their first one one, with full 3D models for the Pokémon, human characters, 3D overworld. The Pokémon counts had also increased a lot since Diamond and Pearl.

And then fact that this even needs to be said lol
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,923
giphy.gif


I'm pretty sure they are devastated with the millions that the game will sell. Poor them.

You realize that even if it sells "well" it can still not meet what's expected?
 

Deleted member 55311

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 26, 2019
341
Congrats to the Dexit people, you got what you wanted I guess, the devs have heard you.

I thank them as well but without sarcasm. Things only change when people complain and talk about their problems with a product.

The low morale totally isn't because they care about Dexit though. Its because of the leak. Things like this ruin stuff that has been planned for months. They don't care about the complaints especially when they know they are still going to make a ton and be praised.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
So you think that there will be a backlash that will be evident in sales?
Maybe, I think it could happen if it sells the same as pokemon lets go I think that would be shown as a dissapointment. It will still sell millions but I've been disappointed from everything I've seen and I don't think I'm alone.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,818
It's not the leaks, its probably the reaction to everything and the fact that a significant amount of media surrounding the game is negative. All you have to do is google the games and tons of bad news pops up along with the regular stuff.

That's funny. I remember the recent media previews being extremely positive.

I might buy two copies just to show how little I care about the dex cut lol
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,470
You said they were not listening to fans, I call you out on this because it is wrong. They are listening, thing is they won't/can't implement everything especially since every part of the fanbase don't want the same things.
Sure. But how does implementing something like difficulty options hurt anyone? If they don't want a more challenging experience, they can just choose the default difficulty. And they've done almost nothing specifically for hardcore fans who don't care about competitive (which is a way bigger subset of fans than the ones who do, lets be honest) in years
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,129
Peru
For my own curiosity's sake and the sake of this thread, can you two explain your points and how GF aren't listening to fans? Maybe if we actually get the ball rolling instead of complaining about each other, we can have some sort of discussion.
Did I say they weren't listening to fans? You can go through my post history and you'll see I've praised their good decisions, such as overworld Pokémon, removal of needless breeding (letting us change nature and whatnot), QoL changes across the board and more, but there are still other aspects where they are lacking and that's where the criticism comes in: Cut Pokémon, lacking post-game, forward-compatibility of previously introduced features (Megas, Z-Moves, etc), among others.

I don't marry companies when criticism has to be expressed, I'll call them out whether they are Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Game Freak, Naughty Dog, Capcom or even Google.
 
Oct 28, 2019
5,974
How do they determine this kind of thing generally. Do they do a poll internally among employees? The Dex leak was recent so did they run a poll recently? Do they see an event that might be a negative then run a poll about how they feel about said negative? I have so many questions about how this is all learned.

I think this game will sell incredibly well and hopefully that will remedy the disappointment they are feeling currently.

There isn't anything to it. Austin heard about it from others. He seems to be talking about what he heard post-E3. The thread is just running with whatever fits the posters narrative.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,769
This post didn't even make sense
How does it not? Pokémon is arguably the biggest budget series Nintendo has which has operated at a fixed point since its inception, where every update has been mostly incremental and iterative while usually retaining the same exact structure given that it's a generational franchise. Mario, Zelda, Fire Emblem, Metroid, etc. all of those series regularly undergo overhauls with each new entry, usually brought about by some new principle in foundation which heavily influences the design ("in Super Mario Galaxy you'll be in space and have gravity gimmicks, in 3D World you have largely linear levels built around multiplayer, in Odyssey you're exploring non-linear worlds via possessing creatures", etc).

Pokémon has mostly stayed the same across every gen, barring creature additions, QoL updates and new maps. Sure, some of them have new core gimmicks like Mega Evolutions, but they're usually tertiary or additive due to their selective nature. There's nothing wrong with that, people are clearly a fan of things staying the same (and I enjoy it too), but if Nintendo started developing the game in-house I'm pretty certain they'd have a more ambitious tendency to uproot the game design with every new entry given that's what most of their creative talents opt to do, and I can see a lot of fans end up taking issue with that when one of the biggest criticisms I've seen towards SwSh is how the series is going to handle retention of mechanics and Pokémon from here on out.
 

Charlie0108

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,021
How are we 6 pages into this thread and people are still maintaining this is about the leaks when the source in the OP directly says it because of the backlash since E3?
 

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,743
It's not the leaks, its probably the reaction to everything and the fact that a significant amount of media surrounding the game is negative. All you have to do is google the games and tons of bad news pops up along with the regular stuff.
The reactions to the games from the media have actually been extremely positive.
 

DongBeetle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,017
It's ridiculous how the term "toxic fanbase" is thrown around like crazy in these Pokémon threads. There's always a few bad apples but most of the criticism surrounding the game has been understandable and also well-reasoned. Most people aren't attacking the developers at all and are just voicing their opinions.

It's nowhere near an actual toxic fanbase like Star Wars where organized harassment occurs or false, dangerous narratives. That fanbase actually created a cesspool community of people who feed on negativity.
It's because a lot of people on here associate their favorite big multimillion dollar corporations as being apart of their personalities so any criticisms against that particular company also affect them personally

No one should be harassed but criticizing the game based on what we know about it is definitely fair
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,129
Peru
And I'm sure you can understand that a lot of us, who are not bothered by the dex cut, understand that there are disappointed fans about it and don't think all criticism towards GF is some kind of toxicity.
Well that really isn't showing as per this thread 🤷🏻‍♂️ for real.
 

calloumiii

Member
Sep 14, 2018
188
People keep saying things like "GameFreak have been ignoring the fanbase's requests" as if the actual main fanbase of Pokémon isn't young children who's main demand is nothing more than cool new monsters to fight with. As someone who is constantly frustrated with GF's removal of cool features, the wimpification of rivals, the whole dex issue, etc - we're not the target audience, and we're not the priority when it comes to their decisions.

Also people assuming that the game selling big will improve morale must think GF is some kind of collective who splits profits evenly or something. What's more likely to happen is the higher-ups see the game succeed, pocket the profit, and continue in a similar fashion going forward, while the lower-ranking staff continue to take abuse from the online community and see little of the rewards.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,470
Official, it is basically the Y icon you have on the UI.

Also trades can be made in the background now, no need to go in a dedicated menu and get out of the main game.
Trades can only be made in the background through the wonder trade system (Where you're trading for a random pokemon), not if you want to actually try and get a specific pokemon
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,175
"I will buy a game destined to sell millions in the first 24 hours to spite toxic fans online" will never not be weird to me.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,339
I'm skeptical of people saying Game Freak had no way of avoiding this situation. They could have stopped selling the franchise on new pokemon years ago and improved game mechanics, fidelity, world size/density/detail, storytelling, etc. instead. Now they're having to cut some of their oldest and most beloved creations and new alike out of their games because they can't do it all and they're being criticized for it.

They very specifically put themselves in this situation due to their business decisions that have been longstanding criticisms of the games while they continued to sell gangbusters.
 

Psychonaut

Member
Jan 11, 2018
3,207
Why are people in here suggesting that the "low morale" claim is tied to leaks when Austin explicitly links it to the fan response around the E3 showing? Where Austin is getting this from, I don't know, but he is pretty clear in establishing the source of low morale. IT'S NOT THE LEAKS.

I'm sure the people coding and drafting assets for SWSH have done the absolute best job they can and I don't fault them for it. The people in charge, however, made a piss poor decision which was (predictably) received poorly. They're losing my purchase and I don't mind seeing the people making those decisions criticized for making them. There are, however, unfortunately members of the community who have been too broad or excessive in their rhetoric, which leads to this.

Ultimately, if the project leads had made a different call, then the game wouldn't have been shrouded in controversy and it would have been business as usual. I'm not excusing the most extreme examples of lazy dev rhetoric, harassment, etc., but Masuda and other in charge knew that they would get some flak and still navigated those waters poorly.
 

Scarlet Spider

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,753
Brooklyn, NY
1CMzAWe.png

I wouldn't be surprised if the devs saw the fury over on 2ch a few days ago after being unaware of the dex cut and them wanting to go after GF for advertising a false product to them.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
I honestly feel like this is a culmination of all the negativity that had been brewing since 2014. XY was viewed as terrible (rightfully so) with how shallow and insignificant the story was, how the gameplay was neutered in terms of region design and any semblance of challenge (though, online was significantly improved with PSS). And then you add in that post-game was cut, but people understood that the post-game of every new gen game was always neutered. The major problem though is that it came right after Generation V, which had a great story, tons of gameplay whether it was in post-game content (specifically B2W2) or in the Unova region itself.

Then ORAS happened, and people expected that remakes would add in a whole lot of content that the first Gen games didn't have. And then news started to break that the Battle Frontier was reduced to a tongue-in-cheek reference, all because of some misguided belief that people are playing less of their content due to mobile gaming (when has this ever been the case? Pokemon hasn't dwindled in popularity. This is something I will NEVER understand). This is when there was a true break between what the developer expected vs. what the fanbase expected.

Pokemon Go, and Sun and Moon was a step forward, but Sun and Moon in particular did have a few steps backwards. The overemphasis on cinematics resulted in a shallow story feeling even more shallow (with the addition of wasted time in cutscenes that you couldn't skip, and cutscenes that patronized the player by consistently telling them where to go). The story was much improved from XY, but some of the problems still remain: region design was brain-dead in straight lines, post-game content was meh (Battle Tree is just the same thing but with more nostalgia due to Pokemon Go + Gen I references).

Add in the whole Dexit controversy that was oddly revealed in a Treehouse segment, and it became the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,809
We dont have any hard numbers on exactly how many fans were alienated because of dexit, but Pokemon discussion everywhere is more toxic than ever. Like incredibly so. Theres no doubt that the playerbase is pretty split right now.
Of course. My point is more about the true reception of the game, though. So any claims that they are in dire need of winning back a major portion of the fanbase is just conjecture for now. We will only know when the game is out.
If it continues to sell just like past games, they either lost very few fans or just made enough new ones to make up for the lost.
 

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
I'm skeptical of people saying Game Freak had no way of avoiding this situation. They could have stopped selling the franchise on new pokemon years ago and improved game mechanics, fidelity, world size/density/detail, storytelling, etc. instead. Now they're having to cut some of their oldest and most beloved creations and new alike out of their games because they can't do it all and they're being criticized for it.

They very specifically put themselves in this situation due to their business decisions that have been longstanding criticisms of the games while they continued to sell gangbusters.
Game freak stopping to make new Pokemon will have been even worse than this.
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
Maybe, I think it could happen if it sells the same as pokemon lets go I think that would be shown as a dissapointment. It will still sell millions but I've been disappointed from everything I've seen and I don't think I'm alone.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I disagree FWIW. The backlash will be low on the list of reasons why this will (probably) open less than S/M in the U.K. (The first concrete data we'll get), behind the price increase (both for hardware + software), the Switch vs 3DS install base and the lack of a boost from Go.

It'll work out in the end I think but that thread won't be pretty if people's reasoning here is any indication.
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
Why are people in here suggesting that the "low morale" claim is tied to leaks when Austin explicitly links it to the fan response around the E3 showing? Where Austin is getting this from, I don't know, but he is pretty clear in establishing the source of low morale.

I'm sure the people coding and drafting assets for SWSH have done the absolute best job they can and I don't fault them for it. The people in charge, however, made a piss poor decision which was (predictably) received poorly. They're losing my purchase and I don't mind seeing the people making those decisions criticized for making them. There are, however, unfortunately members of the community who have been too broad or excessive in their rhetoric, which leads to this.

Ultimately, if the project leads had made a different call, then the game wouldn't have been shrouded in controversy and it would have been business as usual. I'm not excusing the most extreme examples of lazy dev rhetoric, harassment, etc., but Masuda and other in charge knew that they would get some flak and still navigated those waters poorly.

The OP gives no information whatsoever so people are playing "create the narrative you want to see."
 

Metal B

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,396
And I'm sure you can understand that a lot of us, who are not bothered by the dex cut, understand that there are disappointed fans about it and don't think all criticism towards GF is some kind of toxicity.
Not all of the criticism was toxic, but the overall atmosphere and attitude was. People thrown around words like "lazy developers", "liars" and "stingy", which boiled to the top of the conversation. Any actually fair criticism got lost in the allegations ... the prelease for Sword and Shild was a shit show on all fronts.

Neither the vocal fan base or Game Freak are innocent here.
 

Zomba13

#1 Waluigi Fan! Current Status: Crying
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,940
Oh my god. 🤦‍♂️

Diamond and Pearl was a top down 2D sprites with basic 3D overworld game for the DS. Sword and Shield is a HD, their first one one, with full 3D models for the Pokémon, human characters, 3D overworld. The Pokémon counts had also increased a lot since Diamond and Pearl.

Right, true. But XY on the 3DS had more than SwSh and it was the very first time they modelled the Pokémon in 3D and they even "future proofed" them by making them more detailed than they needed to be at that resolution, so much so that the models were used again in Let's Go (unknown regarding SwSh right now, obviously excluding the new pokémon and forms).
 
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