• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Voodoopeople

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,848
The fact that you have to scale already means stuff gets held back.



Incorrect.

For those doubters, no problem. But just sit on your hands for a bit.

The proof will be out there soon enough. If Anaconda is noticeably more powerful than PS5, I absolutely guarantee that the top end AAA Xbox games will be graphically superior to those on PS5 regardless of how much less powerful Lockheart is.

To (sigh) win the graphics arms race, PS5 will have to be more powerful than Anaconda.

Multi plats will show this, but some in denial will insist somehow its because the existence of Lockheart is holding back PS5 versions.

This will be a wrong thought to have.

This is all of course based on the speculated specs. If PS5 remains the most powerful, all bets are off and Sony will canter away with it next gen, graphically speaking. To make the two console strategy work at all, MS have to melt brains and take heavy losses on Anaconda... And if they see this as the lower selling console, they'll be happy to lose plenty.
 

Voodoopeople

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,848
Can we make Klobrille's recent long tweet mandatory reading and lock access to the thread until it's been read? It'll save a lot of confusion.
 

StudioTan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
Your argument basically boils down to "you can scale up/down anything". While that might be technically true, it's not always realistic. Let's try this:

- A massive open-world game that showcases extensive ray tracing effects and things like SVOGI, running at 1080p / 30 fps on PS5/Anaconda.

This is a very viable scenario (at least for PS5). Please explain how you would scale that down so that it can run on Lockhart (25-33% performance).

img_569fba3cd3bd2.jpg
 

RedSparrows

Prophet of Regret
Member
Feb 22, 2019
6,482
As far as I can tell, if Lockhart can run the same numbers of AI et al (CPU, RAM) but look like Sea of Thieves on 'Cursed', and Anaconda looks like Sea of Thieves on 'Ultra', then there you have it. Exaggerated, sure, but the issue is shiny shiny, not 'content', as it were.

Right? I really don't know, but this seems to be the deal given... PC games. In my layman's understanding, what takes up GPU isn't numbers of AI or the size of maps or whatever, but how glorious everything is made to look.
 

Peckmore

Member
Oct 31, 2017
82
Ok, so we disable ray tracing / SVOGI and implement alternative effects for Lockhart. That will go over well. 👍

What really happens: The game will be designed to not use extensive ray tracing / SVOGI, but instead to run at 4K on Anaconda and 1080p on Lockhart.
Isn't that going to happen anyway though for multi-platform and MS first-party games on PC, supporting graphics cards both with and without RT acceleration? In which case the devs are already doing the work anyway (to support both ray tracing and alternative effects), so they'll just use the "High/RT" settings profile for Anaconda, and the "Low/non-RT" settings profile for Lockhart?
 

StudioTan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
Ok, so we disable ray tracing / SVOGI and implement alternative effects for Lockhart. That will go over well. 👍

What really happens: The game will be designed to not use extensive ray tracing / SVOGI, but instead to run at 4K on Anaconda and 1080p on Lockhart.

So you're saying devs will purposefully make their games look worse on the high end consoles just so that people who buy the cheaper, less powerful console won't complain? History and common sense tells me otherwise. "But can it run Crysis?" is a thing for a reason. Devs will want to make the best looking game they can because that's the footage that will be shown to try to sell their games.

Are people talking about Star Citizen?

Here is Star Citizen running using only an integrated GPU, no separate video card:



Clearly the graphics in the game were limited because they also run on a machine without a graphics card.
 

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
So you're saying devs will purposefully make their games look worse on the high end consoles just so that people who buy the cheaper, less powerful console won't complain? History and common sense tells me otherwise. "But can it run Crysis?" is a thing for a reason. Devs will want to make the best looking game they can because that's the footage that will be shown to try to sell their games.

Right now, the difference between base and mid-gen consoles is resolution - because it's easy to change. Why should next-gen be any different?
 

Troll

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
3,278
If I'm Sony I'm doubling down on a misinformation campaign to discredit the Lockharts power.
 

Renovatio

Member
Oct 23, 2019
33
Who the fuck am I kidding? I'll buy the expensive one and the PS5 day one. I have the willpower of a kitchen sponge when it comes to consoles and games.
And you will probably have an expensive console that has to run the same game running on the cheap one. The same game. That's the point sirs, and you can repeat many times we'll have scaling in resolution.

I will know Ram will be less, Gpu will be less powerful, on Lockhart, and i'll know Anaconda won't be pushed to its limits.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,279
And you will probably have an expensive console that has to run the same game running on the cheap one. The same game. That's the point sirs, and you can repeat many times we'll have scaling in resolution.

I will know Ram will be less, Gpu will be less powerful, on Lockhart, and i'll know Anaconda won't be pushed to its limits.

You're guessing.
 

Kibbles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,418
what is this reveal "very soon", January, February? Brad Sams made it sound more like April in his recent video but somewhere here I saw "very soon"
 
Last edited:

ResoRai

Member
Nov 4, 2017
217
It's the main difference when you look at the majority of games. How is that "lying"? Yes, there are often other subtle changes, but they aren't enough to make up the enormous performance difference.
Resolution is usually the most talked about, because it's easy to as advertise. Theres so much that can be configured that affects performance besides resolution.

Look at the "optimized xbox one x settings" for Rdr2 for PC per Digital foundry. Some of those settings are lower than the lowest settings available on PC, because Rockstar were able to scale to the hardware accordingly.

ZrwEdoL.png


Per DF,
Changing Lighting Quality from Ultra -> Medium gave them a 14% performance increase. That's one setting alone.

Changing reflections from Ultra to their optimized X1 settings gave them between a 11 - 17% increase in performance.

Changing shadows from Ultra to their optimized X1 settings gave them a 7% increase in performance.

Theres are settings like anistrophic filtering and texture quality that barely change performance, with texture quality affecting vram usage, but when people talk about scalability in game development this is what they mean.
 

Vimto

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,714
So you're saying devs will purposefully make their games look worse on the high end consoles just so that people who buy the cheaper, less powerful console won't complain? History and common sense tells me otherwise. "But can it run Crysis?" is a thing for a reason. Devs will want to make the best looking game they can because that's the footage that will be shown to try to sell their games.

No shit? Look at the all E3 trailers that got downgraded, just so they can play on console.

Anthem, The Division, Watchdog.. etc etc

Developers downgrade games so they have similar experience between console and PC.

It happens ALL THE TIME
 

itchi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,287
Your argument basically boils down to "you can scale up/down anything". While that might be technically true, it's not always realistic. Let's try this:

- A massive open-world game that showcases extensive ray tracing effects and things like SVOGI, running at 1080p / 30 fps on PS5/Anaconda.

This is a very viable scenario (at least for PS5). Please explain how you would scale that down so that it can run on Lockhart (25-33% performance).
720p/30
 
Last edited:

Pasha

Banned
Jan 27, 2018
3,018
If this is confusing for people in this thread, I can only imagine what the mass market will think.

Given the truth that a Gen 9 tflop is better than a Gen 8 tflop, how do you message that in a simple, easy to understand way that's also technically credible?

Option 1 - Adjust the number to be relative to Gen 8 (e.g 4tflops becomes 5, 8tflops becomes 10, and 12 becomes 14)
Option 2 - Leave the same and try and explain in videos, demos, etc.
Option 2 - Do nothing and let the games speak for themselves.

This is tricky proposition. Each has pros/cons. But unless you do option 1, there are going to be a lot of casual gamers that will think the low-end is less powerful than the outgoing model.

Interested in thoughts on this.
After how long we've had these next-gen threads and different hardware threads about AMD GPUs I have a hard time believing that anyone here actually doesn't understand this concept. Hell all they have to do is just check a review/benchmark website and see how a 9.75TF Radeon RX 5700 XT is wiping the floor with something like the 12.7TF Radeon RX Vega 64 in benchmarks and it should be pretty clear that drawing a direct comparison between XBX flops and Lockhart flops is just stupid.
 

Deleted member 56995

User requested account closure
Banned
May 24, 2019
817
I was hoping games would run at 1440 temporally upscaled to 4K to really push the visuals on these machines. no mattter the power. Sure 4K is nice, but imagine what amazingness these babies could do at 1440p, especially with upscaling techniques getting better and better. With Lockhart being 3x less than Anaconda however, it's looking less and less likely.
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
In easy terms. 4TF GPU of now like the Pro or X isnt the same as 4TF or 6TF for the next gen consoles. Next to it, The biggest gains are gonna be made on the CPU and HDD side. And they are really big.
4TFLOPs will probably be equivalent to xbone X's 6TFLOPs.
How does it compare to the PS5, theoretically?
PS5's isn't confirmed. Maybe PS5 will try to one up Xbtwo with more RAM and bandwidth again. Going off these specs, will try to one up in GPU with higher clockspeeds too

I imagine it being like Xbtwo being Jiren and PS5 being ultra instinct Goku w/out muscle cramps if Sony increases clockspeeds and adds more RAM and bandwidth in the last minute
 

StudioTan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
No shit? Look at the all E3 trailers that got downgraded, just so they can play on console.

Anthem, The Division, Watchdog.. etc etc

Developers downgrade games so they have similar experience between console and PC.

It happens ALL THE TIME

You're just proving my point. Developers don't start with the low end version and just up the resolution which is what some people are claiming Lockhart will do to hold games back. They start with the high end PC build and then scale down accordingly to work on lower specs. The Division on PC looks incredible.

 

Vimto

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,714
You're just proving my point. Developers don't start with the low end version and just up the resolution which is what some people are claiming Lockhart will do to hold games back. They start with the high end PC build and then scale down accordingly to work on lower specs. The Division on PC looks incredible.



If by increadible you mean doesn't exist because it wouldn't have run on console, and had to downgrade the whole thing to have parity with them.

Then correct!

This video is nothing compared to the 2013 E3 trailer :)

Edit: just to clarify, these downgrades hit all versions, including PC, in case you still don't get it.
 
Last edited:

Renovatio

Member
Oct 23, 2019
33
I would like to answer Klobrille even if i don't know him, and even if he knows a lot more. But here what i do think when i read some thinks:


K - Lockhart will be true next generation console with next generational components. Both devices - if this is really what they are going with less than a year from now (and yes, despite the article, this is still an * if *) - Anaconda and Lockhart, will share the same solutions for CPU, memory and SSD.

Therefore, he does not know if they will be two, but he certainly knows what they will be. Brilliant. Don't want to be offensive, but this start makes everything that follows a simple opinion i can disagree (and Klobrille himself says that).

So:

K - When looking at scalability, doing so via GPU and resolution seems like the easiest and most obvious solution. Rendering games at 4K requires a lot of resources. Offering a console * option * that scales back on resolution but stays true on every aspect of a game is a no-brainer in an age of dynamic resolution methods, ML upscaling, intelligent sharpening filters etc.

Klobrille assumes a development on the upper console, a "scales back", to scale back on the less powerful one. Come on, with the lowering of the resolution we are there, through various methods, so much is there so much that can be done, SO MUCH that you MUST do ON TWO CONSOLES (work, developers, work! And do it at most on every console ! YES!), among various filters, on the resolution, on an intelligent detail (? But it must not only change the resolution? Now let's put in the speech a few more filters ...).

K - I keep reading goals post arguments that Lockhart might "hold next generation" back. This rationale lacks and does not mirror the situation of gaming ... At all. First and foremost: why do we simply ignore that every single Xbox game will still like to PC? Yesterday, today and in future? Will be lower than Lockhart will ever be for many, many years to come.

I don't buy a console to see badly scaled results like a 200 or 300 euro pc (because this is what happens on low-end PCs). Pure madness, because I want hardware optimization, which the guy here seems to deliberately ignore. And then the pure show begins:

K - Scalability is important. I keep referring to my personal prime example here being the Sea of Thieves. The game basically runs on a toaster, yet it looks absolutely incredible at 4K / 60fps on a high-end rig. I would go even one step further and say that giving your developers the task of making your games great * profits * a "high-end" version as performance optimizations

A moment before it was passed from Anaconda to the "scales back" on Lockhart, with adjustments on the resolution (and on filters, and on other things). A moment later we are on a game that pushes the toaster to the maximum, to then be scaled upwards with frame rates and higher resolutions. It does not seem to have full clarity of ideas, Klobrille: first the base is Anaconda, then it becomes evidently Lockhart, according to the speeches it makes; if the basics are both, we ignore technical speeches and hardware differences, so they don't count, obviously. Sea of thieves would be great at 4k and absolutely incredible on high end solutions. Context, in my modesty, what the guy says, who surely knows more than me. But context, and I suspect I'm not the only one. But if Sea of Thieves is great in 4k on the upper console, what could have been at dynamic resolutions, and with better textures, a superior effect, a specific development on a single device?


About technical speeches:

K - Scalability on Lockhart is primarily meant to be done via GPU scaling. How does the original Xbox One GPU hold back one of the best games available with Forza Horizon 4 played on a PC at 4K / 60 Ultra? How does a Surface Laptop 3 GPU hold back Gears 5

Everything would be delegated to the GPU, lower on Lockhart, not by chance (let's forget the difference in Ram, so what's the use?). Answering the question: Xbox one afflicts and penalizes Xbox one X when the X is limited to run a 4k 60fps Forza designed to go on standard. No better visual results on X, I can't get them beyond resolution and some marginal aspects: where is photorealism? And why is Forza beautiful on standard xbox, even going down to 30 fps, and I can't have an even more beautiful Forza on Xbox one X at 30fps? Nioh, Monster Hunter World: rare examples of games that allow different settings on one hardware. Very rare, but virtuous examples. Obviously, having two consoles in general creates some problems. There is no such superior game, simply because it cannot be there. It does not seem difficult to understand, and it seems absurd to me again to confuse the computer world with that of the console, which until now had its advantages, even in visual terms, compared to the costs incurred. A surface then, which costs the wrath of god despite its modest endowment, on paper, compared to the price. But these are other arguments.


K - Lockhart will not hold back anything as it will allow "next generation" experiences will be there. Just at lower resolutions and / or some graphical effect sliders set to a lower value.

There will be lowered settings here and there. Anaconda becomes the base again? Then Klobrille talks about the importance of presenting a cheaper console for Jimmy's mom and that this will not confuse consumers. And he gives the example of the current generation. Well, I know and I read about people who are REALLY convinced that Xbox one S, released with the "4k" symbol on the box, was comparable with ps4 pro. People convinced, although it was about upscaling. Here, Klobrille really shows that he does not know what he is talking about. In fact it seems to allude to the world of mobile phones, where I know people who buy huawei p30 lite because it is always a huawei p30, and calls it p30 without knowing the "lite" in the name. Many people.

K - If you followed my comments on this whole topic, you know that I'm a proponent of the Xbox two SKU strategy. Because the truth is: both Nintendo and Playstation have much more dominant mind-share and more prominent brands than Xbox.

From Microsoft I don't expect anything else but a dominant strategy. And just to clarify: proposing a cheaper console is the most subtle way to try to dominate the market.

K - And going into next-gen with one device that only equals PS5 in both price and performance will not do much for the brand.

No, in fact. The brand is carried on by other things, services, games, and possibly a device that is superior to the competition.
 
Last edited:

Taurus

Banned
Jun 15, 2018
733
Your argument basically boils down to "you can scale up/down anything". While that might be technically true, it's not always realistic. Let's try this:

- A massive open-world game that showcases extensive ray tracing effects and things like SVOGI, running at 1080p / 30 fps on PS5/Anaconda.

This is a very viable scenario (at least for PS5). Please explain how you would scale that down so that it can run on Lockhart (25-33% performance).
Why the hell they would waste so much resources to unnecessary things that the game would run only 1080p/30fps? That's just stupid and an unlikely scenario.

On Lockhart I could see this happening but not on Anaconda.
 
Jan 20, 2019
10,681
You're just proving my point. Developers don't start with the low end version and just up the resolution which is what some people are claiming Lockhart will do to hold games back. They start with the high end PC build and then scale down accordingly to work on lower specs. The Division on PC looks incredible.



You shoud watch ubi e3 2013 to see how their games got downgrade because of the consoles.
 

CRIMSON-XIII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,173
Chicago, IL
Did Red dead redemption 2 first trailers blow anyone away, visually speaking ?

Wait for the first gameplay simple is that.
You have a point. ALso though, keep in mind when the RDR2 trailer first came out, it was October 2016. We had not yet played Final Fantasy XV, Horizon Zero Dawn, God of War, Gears, and some other highly impressive games, visually speaking. I was kind of blown away by the sky and just vastness and overall feel. I am looking forward to the action of Halo Infinite to get a better impression.
 

Slowsonic

Member
Feb 25, 2018
441
Your argument basically boils down to "you can scale up/down anything". While that might be technically true, it's not always realistic. Let's try this:

- A massive open-world game that showcases extensive ray tracing effects and things like SVOGI, running at 1080p / 30 fps on PS5/Anaconda.

This is a very viable scenario (at least for PS5). Please explain how you would scale that down so that it can run on Lockhart (25-33% performance).
Aiming 1080/30fps for anaconda/ps5 post 2020 is like aiming for 480p for Xbox x, no sensible developer would do that.
And why can't they remove the ray tracing and SVOGI for Lockhart in your example?
 

Welfare

Prophet of Truth - You’re my Numberwall
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,912
All Microsoft needs to do is say the Lockhart is stronger than the One X. That's it.

You won't see 4TF marketed, or maybe even mentioned at all outside of some Digital Foundry piece. The Anaconda specs will be talked about, Lockhart can just be said to be better than the One X in all categories.
 
Dec 15, 2017
1,590
User Banned (A Week): Platform wars; generalising community. History of being banned for community generalisation and inciting platform wars.
If I'm Sony I'm doubling down on a misinformation campaign to discredit the Lockharts power.

Why spend money when reset era can do that for free? The site feels like free Sony PR at times.