Running ERA |OT| Off the couch into a new ERA

Gandie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
812
What are everyone's thoughts on compression gear? I bought a couple of calf sleeves and have been wearing them about the house and they feel good on my legs. Do people wear them running too or is it better to get compression socks that pull all the way up to calves?

I'm currently wearing a knee support on each knee and Don't want to look completely ridiculous when am out running lol.
I wear long socks up to the knee maybe half the time I'm running. They're warmer and more comfortable in my opinion. I also have some arm sleeves, that go up to the shoulder. They're great when starting in cold weather, since I get very warm when running and rarely wear long sleeve shirts on my run. With the sleeves I can simply take them off mid run and stuff into my back pocket.
 

Gandie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
812
Huh didn't see apologies.

Gandie let us know how you find them. I found my soles on the Pegasus 35 to wear down fast.
First run felt amazing. A bit mushy around corners but I was prepared for that. Seems like a great shoe for fast tempo or long runs. Not a single issue in the knees so far, that I normally get with new shoes.
 

pbsapeer

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,553
First run felt amazing. A bit mushy around corners but I was prepared for that. Seems like a great shoe for fast tempo or long runs. Not a single issue in the knees so far, that I normally get with new shoes.
That's good. I really liked mine a lot. I walked round Vegas in them last year and ran around 200miles but the soles just started to wear down to the side foam.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,256
That's good. I really liked mine a lot. I walked round Vegas in them last year and ran around 200miles but the soles just started to wear down to the side foam.
I kinda feel like that's something we'll have to get used to / accept - our soles wearing down faster; given that they're mostly these foam-like materials nowadays.
 

Fisico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,023
Paris
I'm slowly becoming more and more addict to running lately, spending wayyy too much time into youtube video and looking at shoes on runningwarehouse runrepeat and solereview, wanting to buy/try all of them despite that idea doesn't making any sense lol.
Well at least for my two next pairs (a long run one and a more polyvalent long race one) I guess I will have done my homework this time

If anyone has good or bad things to say about shoes on the list above I'd be glad to hear anything (Kayano 25 are my current long run one, they're here mostly to compare how the others fare against them)
 

Fisico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,023
Paris
Is two weeks rest between marathons enough of a rest?
I think you already know the answer to that question no?

Most people that run marathon for performance don't race more than two yearly, early spring and autumn usually.

If you want to just cruise for the second then it might be manageable, I hope for you that you're already running high mileage, used to marathon and have a really good recovery because two weeks is a really really short time and asking for troubles really.
 

LoveBug566

Member
Oct 27, 2017
344
I think you already know the answer to that question no?

Most people that run marathon for performance don't race more than two yearly, early spring and autumn usually.

If you want to just cruise for the second then it might be manageable, I hope for you that you're already running high mileage, used to marathon and have a really good recovery because two weeks is a really really short time and asking for troubles really.
Thanks for the advice. I think I will skip it.
 

Gandie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
812
I'm slowly becoming more and more addict to running lately, spending wayyy too much time into youtube video and looking at shoes on runningwarehouse runrepeat and solereview, wanting to buy/try all of them despite that idea doesn't making any sense lol.
Well at least for my two next pairs (a long run one and a more polyvalent long race one) I guess I will have done my homework this time

If anyone has good or bad things to say about shoes on the list above I'd be glad to hear anything (Kayano 25 are my current long run one, they're here mostly to compare how the others fare against them)
I have 2 pairs of the DS trainer 23 and I absolutely love them, I do almost all of my runs in them, they're fine for long runs, good for aerobic runs and amazing for interval/speed work. They can get kind of "slappy" when form suffers, but that's a reminder to keep working on form. They are very light and pretty sturdy. My first pair has almost 700 kilometers in them and they look fine apart from some wear in the upper, but nothing that concers performance. Be sure to buy at least half if not one size larger than regular shoes for all Asics models. They are very bad about adhering to traditional size conventions.
I'd also recommend buying Yankz or similar shoe laces for better fit and faster change.
 

Fisico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,023
Paris
I have 2 pairs of the DS trainer 23 and I absolutely love them, I do almost all of my runs in them, they're fine for long runs, good for aerobic runs and amazing for interval/speed work. They can get kind of "slappy" when form suffers, but that's a reminder to keep working on form. They are very light and pretty sturdy. My first pair has almost 700 kilometers in them and they look fine apart from some wear in the upper, but nothing that concers performance. Be sure to buy at least half if not one size larger than regular shoes for all Asics models. They are very bad about adhering to traditional size conventions.
I'd also recommend buying Yankz or similar shoe laces for better fit and faster change.
Oh thanks, I already have a pair of DS Trainer 23, my "eventually to buy" list include the 24 which is slightly different from the 23 (20g heavier and 8mm drop instead of 10 amongst others things).
They're already my main pair, I only switch to Kayano for very long run (>20-25k) and Tartherzeal for interval on track.

I also totally get the "slappy" comment, I've race a 10k with it and I was suuuuuuper slappy on my right foot, that was mostly due to anterior tibial tendonitis though.

Never heard of Yankz before, but I've never had a single problem with laces before so...
 

Gandie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
812
Oh thanks, I already have a pair of DS Trainer 23, my "eventually to buy" list include the 24 which is slightly different from the 23 (20g heavier and 8mm drop instead of 10 amongst others things).
They're already my main pair, I only switch to Kayano for very long run (>20-25k) and Tartherzeal for interval on track.

I also totally get the "slappy" comment, I've race a 10k with it and I was suuuuuuper slappy on my right foot, that was mostly due to anterior tibial tendonitis though.

Never heard of Yankz before, but I've never had a single problem with laces before so...
Oh well, didn't realize that Asics was back to actually improving their products year over year. 22 to 23 was very similar iirc.

Yankz are amazing, it's like night and day compared to normal laces. I had issues with over/undertightening laces, either cutting of some ciruclation or not having a great fit.
 

DagsJT

Member
Oct 29, 2017
374
My favourite running shoes have been the 1080 new balance trainers. The new ones are really nice.
I couldn’t get on with those at all. First pair had some kind of wrong insole in so the insole didn’t fit inside the shoe properly and left gaps at the edges.

The second pair ended up giving me blisters on the side of the foot where there was some stitching on the inside of the shoe that really rubbed and became painful.

I’ve still got them sitting in the cupboard actually, never going to get used. I should probably sell them.
 

pbsapeer

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,553
I couldn’t get on with those at all. First pair had some kind of wrong insole in so the insole didn’t fit inside the shoe properly and left gaps at the edges.

The second pair ended up giving me blisters on the side of the foot where there was some stitching on the inside of the shoe that really rubbed and became painful.

I’ve still got them sitting in the cupboard actually, never going to get used. I should probably sell them.
Send them my way!

Only kidding. Shame you didn't enjoy them. Always looking at new shoes and seeing what people think. I worry when you read reviews because generally people only try them a few times. I want to know what they're like 4 months down the line, you know?

Always intrigued by the hoka one one trainers.
 

funky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,573
Thinking about the logistics and recovery time of doing 2 marathons in 1 week in October.

Amsterdam marathon on the 20th and then the Dublin marathon on the 27th.


Dublin is my main but I wouldnt mind going back to Amsterdam for a long weekend. Its The Netherlands so its flat as can be which should help.
 

Duebrithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
177
Thinking about the logistics and recovery time of doing 2 marathons in 1 week in October.

Amsterdam marathon on the 20th and then the Dublin marathon on the 27th.


Dublin is my main but I wouldnt mind going back to Amsterdam for a long weekend. Its The Netherlands so its flat as can be which should help.
If you take the one on the 20th as a very very very easy training run, you might consider going for it even though it might end up being too much of an effort even then. If you are planning on racing both to the full extent of your legs, don't.

Personally, I wouldn't compromise my main race this way. Don't throw away months of planning and training for a race you didn't account for.
 

pbsapeer

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,553
Tunnel 10k done. Knee pain around 9km. FML it's doing my head in. Still managed a 41 something time.
 

DagsJT

Member
Oct 29, 2017
374
Tunnel 10k done. Knee pain around 9km. FML it's doing my head in. Still managed a 41 something time.
Cracking time that. I finished in 54:18 which isn’t a PB but I’m quite happy with it. Really had to hold on for the last few miles as going up the tunnel took more out of me than I expected and sent my heart rate straight up to 180bpm which I never recovered from.

Last time I do that race though. Just a bit of a pain logistically and I’ll probably just do the Whitley 10k from now on.
 

pbsapeer

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,553
Cracking time that. I finished in 54:18 which isn’t a PB but I’m quite happy with it. Really had to hold on for the last few miles as going up the tunnel took more out of me than I expected and sent my heart rate straight up to 180bpm which I never recovered from.

Last time I do that race though. Just a bit of a pain logistically and I’ll probably just do the Whitley 10k from now on.
Nice man. That's not bad at all. My wife did her first one today and managed about 53 so I must have seen you there at the finish.

It's a nightmare. I parked up and New Brighton at about half 7 this morning which meant getting up around quarter to 6. Not the best logistically at all.

Yeah that tunnel was worse than I remember. I did it last year in 48 minutes something but I always thought the tunnel was nice if not a little muggy. Today it was dark and the slope out was tough - it never ended!

Once again though, really difficult to dress for the race. It was Baltic first thing!
 

DagsJT

Member
Oct 29, 2017
374
Nice man. That's not bad at all. My wife did her first one today and managed about 53 so I must have seen you there at the finish.

It's a nightmare. I parked up and New Brighton at about half 7 this morning which meant getting up around quarter to 6. Not the best logistically at all.

Yeah that tunnel was worse than I remember. I did it last year in 48 minutes something but I always thought the tunnel was nice if not a little muggy. Today it was dark and the slope out was tough - it never ended!

Once again though, really difficult to dress for the race. It was Baltic first thing!
Are you at the Hale Village 5 Miler next week?
 

DagsJT

Member
Oct 29, 2017
374
Anyone ever used Jenny Hadfield’s plans? I like her methods of running to feel and for a time rather than to a distance (for the weekday runs), and I’m thinking of following one of the half marathon plans.
 

Gandie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
812
Absolutely destroyed my 13k w/ 22 mins @lactate threshold workout today. Got some nice very very low 4 minute kilometers in the interval and could have gone on for at least another 10 minutes at the end of the 22 minutes.
 

r3s

Member
Feb 6, 2018
126
Sooo, I signed in for a relay marathon.
My first race.
Go hard. Relays are mentally tough since you just don't know where you stand (unless you're doing the first leg). I'm hoping to do some more short cross country ones in the next few weeks and the longer road relays later in the year.
 

Piston

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,086
Been keeping up with my marathon training plan pretty well. My legs feel very strong after a few longer runs and some recovery.

I lost weight to start but I have been gaining weight for the past two weeks or so. I haven't changed my eating much besides substituting in some protein shakes over meals, so I'm hoping the gain back is muscle weight and the initial loss was fat.

I think my main challenge will be hydration on long runs when I'm down here in Miami. I end up needing water around the 6-mile mark if I'm running outside. I'm using gels for longer runs but I HATE carrying water with me, the sloshing motion really gets to me after a bit.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,256
Been keeping up with my marathon training plan pretty well. My legs feel very strong after a few longer runs and some recovery.

I lost weight to start but I have been gaining weight for the past two weeks or so. I haven't changed my eating much besides substituting in some protein shakes over meals, so I'm hoping the gain back is muscle weight and the initial loss was fat.

I think my main challenge will be hydration on long runs when I'm down here in Miami. I end up needing water around the 6-mile mark if I'm running outside. I'm using gels for longer runs but I HATE carrying water with me, the sloshing motion really gets to me after a bit.
totally with you. Can you plan your longer runs in a way that you'll have a public water fountain along the way ever so often?
Or have you thought about getting one of those running belts with those tiny water bottles? They don't slosh quite as much.


alternatively, you could get one of these kinds of backpacks.
 

Piston

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,086
totally with you. Can you plan your longer runs in a way that you'll have a public water fountain along the way ever so often?
Or have you thought about getting one of those running belts with those tiny water bottles? They don't slosh quite as much.


alternatively, you could get one of these kinds of backpacks.
I would want to do a test run with either of these before committing to them. I do have routes with public water fountains and I run with my credit card so I can stop at corner stores or pharmacy's if I really need to grab some water. There aren't exactly many park/rural trails in Miami.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,256
I would want to do a test run with either of these before committing to them. I do have routes with public water fountains and I run with my credit card so I can stop at corner stores or pharmacy's if I really need to grab some water. There aren't exactly many park/rural trails in Miami.
Well, the water belt is something that's easy to put in a drawer. Also, it's a "race bib holder" and a phone belt at the same time. The backpack is a huge ergonomic commitment, indeed.

I don't run with water in general, but if i would, i'd get one of those belts.
 

Duebrithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
177
The belts I've tried I ended up not using them, as they moved way too much and didn't stay in place. I've had more luck using hydration vests with pockets for soft flasks and the like (essentially a belt in vest form), much more comfortable and you avoid putting pressure on the hips.
 

DagsJT

Member
Oct 29, 2017
374
Picked up a Polar Vantage M for £130 on eBay. I’ve never had a Polar and I’m interested in Polar Flow, as well as the training dynamics on Polar. I’m also a bit bored of Garmin Connect.

I’ve currently got a Garmin 645 so interested to compare. I find the training dynamics on Garmin to be a bit ... odd. I don’t feel like I trust the numbers that come out at the end of the run with regards to aerobic and anaerobic so I’m curious to see how Polar manages it.

At any rate, if it’s not too good then I should be able to make my money back selling it on anyway.
 

pbsapeer

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,553
Picked up a Polar Vantage M for £130 on eBay. I’ve never had a Polar and I’m interested in Polar Flow, as well as the training dynamics on Polar. I’m also a bit bored of Garmin Connect.

I’ve currently got a Garmin 645 so interested to compare. I find the training dynamics on Garmin to be a bit ... odd. I don’t feel like I trust the numbers that come out at the end of the run with regards to aerobic and anaerobic so I’m curious to see how Polar manages it.

At any rate, if it’s not too good then I should be able to make my money back selling it on anyway.
I have the 645m. I really like it but I get what you mean. I ran that 10k the other week and after 10minutes it was telling me that my effort was -14 and the end of the run went down to a vo2 of 57. It's taken me a week to get back to 59 and every run since has been +4 effort.
 

Fisico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,023
Paris
I have the 645m. I really like it but I get what you mean. I ran that 10k the other week and after 10minutes it was telling me that my effort was -14 and the end of the run went down to a vo2 of 57. It's taken me a week to get back to 59 and every run since has been +4 effort.
I've got a 235 and the VO2max estimate is complete garbage, hovering between 50 and 60.
It's most likely due to multiple factors like inaccurate HRM, not taking elevation into account, and, well, the fact it's an estimate because you can't mesure that with just a watch.
Other funny thing is the race predictor is 100% based on the vo2max and keep predicting higher time than my PR on every distance (from 5k to marathon) despite the fact I beat these times a few weeks/months ago with that very same watch, it shouldn't be too hard for them to use that in their algorithm to stop varying so much but they don't somehow.
 

Gandie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
812
Polar Running Index is complete guesswork, that prioritizes heart rate over everything. My supposed VO2 max of 67 predicts a 1:25 half and a sub 3 marathon. On no speedwork, no longrun longer than 20k, etc. I have the highest Running index (in the low seventies) after running at easy pace and low heartrate with friends. It's nice to see a number tick up, but it's useless in terms of actual training information. In fact I prefer the Smashrun Performance Index you get with Smashrun Pro. Seems to give a more accurate overview over the current performance and doesn't waste time by "predicting" race performance.
 

Fisico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,023
Paris
Polar Running Index is complete guesswork, that prioritizes heart rate over everything. My supposed VO2 max of 67 predicts a 1:25 half and a sub 3 marathon. On no speedwork, no longrun longer than 20k, etc. I have the highest Running index (in the low seventies) after running at easy pace and low heartrate with friends. It's nice to see a number tick up, but it's useless in terms of actual training information. In fact I prefer the Smashrun Performance Index you get with Smashrun Pro. Seems to give a more accurate overview over the current performance and doesn't waste time by "predicting" race performance.
67 VO2Max predicting 1h25 half and sub 3 marathon ?
67 is basically pro level lol.

The correlation between vo2max and predicted time is also only there to tell you that you could potentially reach these times if you put the proper training in, so they make sense only if you're already race ready for the distance which, for many, isn't the case for longer distances.
 

Gandie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
812
67 VO2Max predicting 1h25 half and sub 3 marathon ?
67 is basically pro level lol.

The correlation between vo2max and predicted time is also only there to tell you that you could potentially reach these times if you put the proper training in, so they make sense only if you're already race ready for the distance which, for many, isn't the case for longer distances.
Cycling pros regularly have VO2 max values of over 80. Kipchoge's is estimated to be close to 90.

Concerning the validity of the Polar Running index:

The aim of the present study was to check the validity of the Polar Running-Index (LI) through an empirical approach. 18 moderately to well-trained male long distance runners completed two incremental tests and one constant running test on a treadmill to determine maximum oxygen uptake (VO2max), lactate threshold (aaS), running economy (RE) and LI. LI is significantly correlated with VO2max (r = 0.60; p = 0.03) and aaS (r = 0.69; p = 0.00), but not with RE (r = -0.34; p = 0.14). Furthermore 95 percent of the variation of RI can be explained by submaximal heart rate (HFsub), running velocity (v) and maximum heart rate (HRmax)
https://www.bisp-surf.de/Record/PU201408007535
 

Fisico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,023
Paris
Cycling pros regularly have VO2 max values of over 80. Kipchoge's is estimated to be close to 90.

Concerning the validity of the Polar Running index:



https://www.bisp-surf.de/Record/PU201408007535
Yes , world record material can go up to 90, I'm only talking about people nearing pro level, near 70 is already good enough for that (it's multiple factors though, with vo2 max only being one of them)
It's also much easier for cyclist to build up a higher VO2 max as they're less injury prone and can cram bigger volumes than runners.

I can't say much about the study, there are always a lot of factors to take into account before vouching for how good it is or not, sample size (18 is not a lot), sample quality (what does '18 moderately to well-trained male long distance runners" mean?), tests conducted, who ordered that study, how relevant it still is today (seems to be from 2013?).

Correlation does exist, thankfully, but accuracy probably vary a lot depending on conditions we know nothing about.
To have a fair evaluation of Polar (or Garmin, or Tomtom or whatever other watch manufacturer) algorithm they would need to be made public which is something they obviously won't do.
 

Duebrithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
177
67 VO2Max predicting 1h25 half and sub 3 marathon ?
67 is basically pro level lol.

The correlation between vo2max and predicted time is also only there to tell you that you could potentially reach these times if you put the proper training in, so they make sense only if you're already race ready for the distance which, for many, isn't the case for longer distances.
I've had Garmin's VO2Max estimate oscillate around 67-68 and I've run a 1h19 half and 2h54 marathon, so it doesn't seem that far fetched. In any case, I think FirstBeat's estimate of aerobic and anaerobic stress as well as VO2Max and recovery time relies on having properly set HR zones, and that can only be done after having a cardiac stress test done.
 

Fisico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,023
Paris
I've had Garmin's VO2Max estimate oscillate around 67-68 and I've run a 1h19 half and 2h54 marathon, so it doesn't seem that far fetched. In any case, I think FirstBeat's estimate of aerobic and anaerobic stress as well as VO2Max and recovery time relies on having properly set HR zones, and that can only be done after having a cardiac stress test done.
Well with almost the same times (1h21/2h54) VO2max never went above 60 and is more often between 55-58.
As you said a big part of the accuracy might be helped by a proper clinical test in the first place and reliable cardio data, one might not be easily available and the second is often messed up if you rely on the cardio provided by the watch and don't use a chest strap.
I customized my "zones" based on effort perception months ago

5y old data suggests your 67 might be an oddity though, but it's more a matter of which one is less accurate than the other really. The estimate is not there to be taken at face value but only give you a broad range of what to expect, better not to be flattered too much by it and perform a real clinical test to know the true value if you're really curious.
 

pbsapeer

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,553
So I'm seeing the physio again at some point to work on my knee issues at a faster pace. Hopefully I can stop it from flaring up.
Are there any good half marathon plans people can recommend? Would ideally like one with a 4 / 5 day a week runs. If I find one can I somehow upload it to my Garmin? I find that j really struggle with running at a slower pace and alerts might help me slow down