RWBYERA |OT| Volume 6: RWBY and the JNRnauts

SaberVS7

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Oct 25, 2017
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Let's just be blunt that Racism Allegories with Fantasy Races/Cultures is something that's almost never handled well at all. I'm at That Part watching AoT (dub, so a few episodes behind) so I'll see if it handles whatever it's trying to say with any measure of finesse.

But yeah I'm of opinion that they should either Drop It or properly Double Down on it instead of it being a half-baked side-detail Freudian Excuse for some inept Incel villain who's probably 100% Dead now anyway. I mean, Blake hasn't had to deal with any crap related to being a Faunus, nor have we seen any real examples of Faunus discrimination since Volume 1. It keeps getting Told but not Shown.
 

Sjay1994

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Oct 25, 2017
4,119
Some of the unfinished animation from RTX leaked


Not sure if posting this is allowed or not, but if not someone let me know and I'll remove it
 

DragonSJG

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Mar 4, 2019
1,266
The visual design of Atlas/Mantle is the most obvious metaphor for inequality that I can think of.



And they just introduced the SDC logo on Adam at the end of last volume.

There's no way they're dropping it.
The brand is pointless on Adam as it didn't matter if he was a Faunus by then and the racism behind it isn't even addressed or brought up. Not to mention he saying his ex leaving him was worse than it, which undermines the plot.
 

SDBurton

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Oct 25, 2017
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DragonSJG

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Mar 4, 2019
1,266
Going back to previous volumes, I see how much of a waste that the Schnee/White Fang conflict was dropped...like wow......

Ok, last post I'll make on this but I wanted to say Weiss and Adam could have been really good foils/enemies. Adam had a difficult childhood cuz of the SDC while Weiss had a difficult one because of the White Fang. Heck, due to Weiss' abusive childhood, you can say she suffered at the SDC too and they both have scars due to it. Adam became prejudice to humans because of his treatment and Weiss became prejudice to Faunus. However, Adam let his hatred grow while Weiss overcame hers. They both wanted to become leaders/head of their respective groups but for opposite reasons. Even their personalities as Weiss appears to be cold an stuck up but is actually a caring and considering person while Adam appears to be a noble figure but he's actually just a spiteful figure.. Their fighting styles constraints, Weiss' rapier/fencing is western while Adam's chokuto and Iado is eastern. They have opposite color schemes, Adam Black and Red and Weiss has white and hints of blue.

After typing this out and considering the SDC/White Fang , I wonder, was there someone who realized this but then was told "No, no, that makes too much sense."
 

RedHoodedOwl

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Nov 3, 2017
7,104
The Fennec twins were the true brains behind Adam's White Fang and they were contemplating about betraying him because of his reckless and unstable nature.
 

DragonSJG

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Mar 4, 2019
1,266
The Fennec twins were the true brains behind Adam's White Fang and they were contemplating about betraying him because of his reckless and unstable nature.
But then they were going along gleefully with this plan later on to attack the Belladonna household and even acting like cackling villains
Really, how did anyone follow a nut like Adam?
 
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DragonSJG

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Mar 4, 2019
1,266
Ok, I'm sorry for talking about Adam so much but here's something I just need to bring up
CRWBY and the show keep telling us that this guy sucks and he's rotten to the core. CRWBY frequently diss him and even his own voice actor trash-talked Adam. Then out of the blue, Amity Arena's bio calls him a child slave who was once innocent and just wanted to find his place in the world, his song is about his descent into madness and details the abuse he suffered as a kid, and Nevermore says to not take joy from his death since Adam was a victim who never got a break. Yet him being a 'tragic figure' is never brought up in the show at all. So I'm just confused why they're now trying to make him some tragic villain or something we should pity and I'm just like 'Why?'
 
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Korigama

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Oct 25, 2017
6,879
I find it difficult to picture much sympathy being mustered for Cinder after all she's done, particularly after killing Pyrrha (a death which was clearly neither instant nor painless).
 

DragonSJG

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Mar 4, 2019
1,266
I find it difficult to picture much sympathy being mustered for Cinder after all she's done, particularly after killing Pyrrha.
Good point and edited. I'm still confused why the show is trying to make Adam some tragic figure though all of a sudden considering the crew has been telling us this guy sucks. I think Arryn said she's concerned Adam still has fans even and thinks he was the kind to torture animals as a kid
 

Sjay1994

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Oct 25, 2017
4,119
Ok, I'm sorry for talking about Adam so much but here's something I just need to bring up
CRWBY and the show keep telling us that this guy sucks and he's rotten to the core. CRWBY frequently diss him and even his own voice actor trash-talked Adam. Then out of the blue, Amity Arena's bio calls him a child slave who was once innocent and just wanted to find his place in the world, his song is about his descent into madness and details the abuse he suffered as a kid, and Nevermore says to not take joy from his death since Adam was a victim who never got a break. Yet him being a 'tragic figure' is never brought up in the show at all. So I'm just confused why they're now trying to make him some tragic villain or something we should pity and I'm just like 'Why?' Hell, I think they should have given his backstory to Cinder by now seeing as she's a major villain or and it would make sense why she wants so much power and to be feared
Because him having a tragic backstory (which we still don't know the details of until we go to Atlas because his branding happened at the mines) doesn't invalidate he was a shit. He used his personal suffering as an excuse to lash out at everyone he deemed had wronged him. He was so consumed by his hatred and spite, that he refused to let go and ultimately its what got him killed.

There were multiple points during the Blake and Yang fight where both of them tried to get Adam to leave. But he refused. He couldn't let go of the fact he felt Blake wronged him. He used his personal tragedies as an excuse to lash out at everyone.

Thats what the bio and nevermore is trying to say. That it is sad he didn't learn in the end. Not "woe is him, he suffered" it's "he didn't learn to let go of his hatred"

Also, I feel there is a huge disconnect with how people interpret the Faunus Dust Mines. They aren't slaves. They work there because presumably it is hard for Faunus to get work anywhere else, and the conditions of work are extremely hazardous.
 
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Sjay1994

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Oct 25, 2017
4,119
I find it difficult to picture much sympathy being mustered for Cinder after all she's done, particularly after killing Pyrrha (a death which was clearly neither instant nor painless).
I'm not exactly sure where they are going with Cinder, but the Knights Chronicle game mentions that Cinder is "inherently jealous of those with natural talent". Ultimately I think the route they are going with her is because she was powerless at one point of her live, she covets power intensely.
 

DragonSJG

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Mar 4, 2019
1,266
Because him having a tragic backstory (which we still don't know the details of until we go to Atlas because his branding happened at the mines) doesn't invalidate he was a shit. He used his personal suffering as an excuse to lash out at everyone he deemed had wronged him. He was so consumed by his hatred and spite, that he refused to let go and ultimately its what got him killed.

There were multiple points during the Blake and Yang fight where both of them tried to get Adam to leave. But he refused. He couldn't let go of the fact he felt Blake wronged him. He used his personal tragedies as an excuse to lash out at everyone.

Thats what the bio and nevermore is trying to say. That it is sad he didn't learn in the end. Not "woe is him, he suffered" it's "he didn't learn to let go of his hatred"

Also, I feel there is a huge disconnect with how people interpret the Faunus Dust Mines. They aren't slaves. They work there because presumably it is hard for Faunus to get work anywhere else, and the conditions of work are extremely hazardous.
Eh, I've said this before and I'll say it again: the evil ex is not a good way to showcase a guy who lost his way cuz of racial prejudice. I would have been fine if Adam went after Blake cuz she ruined his organization and betrayed them by hanging out with humans and ruined his one last chance to make humanity pay not cuz he's salty he got dumped. As the bio indicated with him wanting to watch humanity burn, if the show spent more focus on his hatred towards humanity than being an incel, then I would see where they're going for. But it just feels so..lame and disconnected and just dumb to me. I'm sure if you show Adam to someone they wouldn't be able to tell he's meant to be a figure who lost his way. If he was in an anime that wasn't RWBY, I am certain he'd be ridiculed and hated.

If Sasuke had his family massacred but then was more focused on getting back at Sakura for dumping him or something, would you take him seriously or something? Say what you will about Sasuke, but he's a good way of showing someone who lost his way due to hatred
. An evil ex is what you said, a dead weight on the narrative

The fact that Blake and Yang were just trying to get him, a murderer and a terrorist, to just simply leave is jarring and shows he's just simply a nuisance cuz he's just the crazy ex. That feels like a soap opera or something

Actually, from Shadows and Lionize describe it, it's pretty much slavery. "Born with no life into subjugation, treated like a worthless animal", "Taunted and torturted, insulted and reviled, enthrall to human overlords since I was a child"
TLDR: I think Adam has one of the most interesting backstories in the show with legit excuses that could have made him an interesting villain
 
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Sjay1994

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Oct 25, 2017
4,119
Eh, I've said this before and I'll say it again: the evil ex is not a good way to showcase a guy who lost his way cuz of racial prejudice. I would have been fine if Adam went after Blake cuz she ruined his organization and betrayed them by hanging out with humans and ruined his one last chance to make humanity pay not cuz he's salty he got dumped. As the bio indicated with him wanting to watch humanity burn, if the show spent more focus on his hatred towards humanity than being an incel, then I would see where they're going for. But it just feels so..lame and disconnected and just dumb to me. I'm sure if you show Adam to someone they wouldn't be able to tell he's meant to be a figure who lost his way. If he was in an anime that wasn't RWBY, I am certain he'd be ridiculed and hated.

If Sasuke had his family massacred but then was more focused on getting back at Sakura for dumping him or something, would you take him seriously or something?
. An evil ex is what you said, a dead weight on the narrative

The fact that Blake and Yang were just trying to get him, a murderer and a terrorist, to just simply leave is jarring and shows he's just simply a nuisance cuz he's just the crazy ex. That feels like a soap opera or something

TLDR: I think Adam has one of the most interesting backstories in the show with legit excuses that could have made him an interesting villain
1) You keep ignoring what I'm saying. The point is not that Adam is "a victim of racial prejudice", it's that Adam used that as an excuse to lash out at anyone he felt wronged him. It didn't matter if they were human or Faunus. Remember how Emerald and Mercury murdered the bookstore owner because he was a White Fang member who wanted to leave the organization? Adam lashes out at anyone he deems wronged him. He tried to kill all the Faunus at Haven because people wouldn't side with him. That's who Adam is. He isn't a racial savior. He isn't supposed to be sympathetic. He isn't meant to show the damage prejudice can make a once good person become hateful (as seen with Ilia). His point was to show someone so far gone in terms of their hatred, that they lash out at everyone. He chased after Blake and wanted her to suffer, because she wronged him personally.

2) Because that is literally not Sasuke's character. He never returned any affection for Sakura. Where as Adam feigned affection to Blake to manipulate her. Sasuke's entire vendetta against the leaf village happened because he first wanted to kill Itachi because he killed his clan, then it turns out the Leaf Village ordered him to do it. Hell, people bash on Naruto because they constantly forgave Sasuke despite doing huge war crimes. So this whole thing of "if sasuke did it, it would be laughable" is moot because there is zero indication Sasuke would act like this, when there was indication Adam would act like this based on how he spoke with Blake in V3.

3) Because Blake and Yang don't want to have to kill him. That's the whole thing. They aren't high fiving after they DP'd him. They know that if they continue fighting Adam, one of them is going to die. Because Adam refused to let go. He got away from the law, but he still decided to go after Blake because he can't fucking let go. That's who he is. The show even badly spelt it out to the audience with the weird "you describe people with a single word" thing in V5 that Adam is "spite".

Blake thought he used to be justice, but she eventually saw he was just spite lashing out at anyone that he deemed had wronged him. He was too far gone.

Your TLDR is basically why I am so fucking tired of talking about Adam. Everytime people bring him up, it's constantly about "oh he should have been freedom fighter/abused boy/sympathetic/heroic/courageous/a hero/etc"

And then projecting because Adam died, the Faunus racism plotline is gone... when we are literally going to Atlas. Where the mines are a big focal point. Where Weiss snapped during a fundraiser where people were lowkey and high key mocking both faunus and the people of Vale. There is a huge superiority complex within Atlas. Even Cordovin made a racist remark against Blake.

Like, I am actually so fucking tired reading about Adam. Shitty furry Vergil is dead. He was a shit. And when all this stuff is put in front of them, people just go "well it doesn't make sense" and "he should have been this".
 

RedHoodedOwl

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Nov 3, 2017
7,104
It's nice to see Lionheart suffered the consequences for his actions and selling out his own people to Salem. He didn't deserve the overused redemption arc.
 

Htown

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Oct 25, 2017
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Like, I am actually so fucking tired reading about Adam. Shitty furry Vergil is dead. He was a shit. And when all this stuff is put in front of them, people just go "well it doesn't make sense" and "he should have been this".
honestly I think it's because people are used to similar "badass" characters in anime getting to hang around the whole series and be treated as allies for no goddamn reason
 

Sjay1994

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Oct 25, 2017
4,119
honestly I think it's because people are used to similar "badass" characters in anime getting to hang around the whole series and be treated as allies for no goddamn reason
It's why I really hate the whole idea of youtubers trying to rewrite RWBY and then going "it's better". Because they just substitute characters for some other anime trope and go "see its better"

"Adam is a completely vindicated savior who don't care about Blake and cares about the faunus, don't matter if he is taking extreme measures. He is fighting for inequality"

There is a bunch of other drek like that awful "RWBY but better" video where they sound so full of themselves and their shitty substitute ideas with no real confirmation or explaination of "why its better".

Just RWBY is bad, my ideas are better, "muh wasted character designs"
 

DragonSJG

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Mar 4, 2019
1,266
1) You keep ignoring what I'm saying. The point is not that Adam is "a victim of racial prejudice", it's that Adam used that as an excuse to lash out at anyone he felt wronged him. It didn't matter if they were human or Faunus. Remember how Emerald and Mercury murdered the bookstore owner because he was a White Fang member who wanted to leave the organization? Adam lashes out at anyone he deems wronged him. He tried to kill all the Faunus at Haven because people wouldn't side with him. That's who Adam is. He isn't a racial savior. He isn't supposed to be sympathetic. He isn't meant to show the damage prejudice can make a once good person become hateful (as seen with Ilia). His point was to show someone so far gone in terms of their hatred, that they lash out at everyone. He chased after Blake and wanted her to suffer, because she wronged him personally.

2) Because that is literally not Sasuke's character. He never returned any affection for Sakura. Where as Adam feigned affection to Blake to manipulate her. Sasuke's entire vendetta against the leaf village happened because he first wanted to kill Itachi because he killed his clan, then it turns out the Leaf Village ordered him to do it. Hell, people bash on Naruto because they constantly forgave Sasuke despite doing huge war crimes. So this whole thing of "if sasuke did it, it would be laughable" is moot because there is zero indication Sasuke would act like this, when there was indication Adam would act like this based on how he spoke with Blake in V3.

3) Because Blake and Yang don't want to have to kill him. That's the whole thing. They aren't high fiving after they DP'd him. They know that if they continue fighting Adam, one of them is going to die. Because Adam refused to let go. He got away from the law, but he still decided to go after Blake because he can't fucking let go. That's who he is. The show even badly spelt it out to the audience with the weird "you describe people with a single word" thing in V5 that Adam is "spite".

Blake thought he used to be justice, but she eventually saw he was just spite lashing out at anyone that he deemed had wronged him. He was too far gone.

Your TLDR is basically why I am so fucking tired of talking about Adam. Everytime people bring him up, it's constantly about "oh he should have been freedom fighter/abused boy/sympathetic/heroic/courageous/a hero/etc"

And then projecting because Adam died, the Faunus racism plotline is gone... when we are literally going to Atlas. Where the mines are a big focal point. Where Weiss snapped during a fundraiser where people were lowkey and high key mocking both faunus and the people of Vale. There is a huge superiority complex within Atlas. Even Cordovin made a racist remark against Blake.

Like, I am actually so fucking tired reading about Adam. Shitty furry Vergil is dead. He was a shit. And when all this stuff is put in front of them, people just go "well it doesn't make sense" and "he should have been this".
I'd just like to say I've said before that I've never said Adam should be an anti-hero or sympathetic. I literally said villain, so it sounds like you're ignoring what I'm saying in that regard. I've agreed with you he is no saviour. I'm ok with him being purely a villain and spiteful, ala Killmonger. Killmonger is no racial saviour. Killmonger kills other Black people and works with someone like Klaw, a racist. Killmonger just wants his own agenda/payback. I'll repeat, If he went after Blake cuz she ruined his organization and last chance to make humanity suffer and died the same way, I'd be ok with that. I just think an evil ex is pretty lowscale and lame for RWBY and just not a good way to show someone consumed by hatred when they have good reasons for it.

TLDR: I just don't think all this stuff is well written.

I'm curious though, you yourself said Adam is a dead weight and seem to think he's not well written, may I ask why?

I think people expecting more Faunus racism are optimistic. Miles and Kerry have said they underestimated the difficulty of writing such a subplot and it is taking a backburner. Granted, they have new writers, but I wouldn't hold my breath
 
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Sjay1994

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Oct 25, 2017
4,119
I'd just like to say I've said before that I've never said Adam should be an anti-hero or sympathetic. I literally said villain, so it sounds like you're ignoring what I'm saying in that regard. I've agreed with you he is no saviour. I'm ok with him being purely a villain and spiteful, ala Killmonger. Killmonger is no racial saviour. Killmonger kills other Black people and works with someone like Klaw, a racist. Killmonger just wants his own agenda/payback. I'll repeat, If he went after Blake cuz she ruined his organization and last chance to make humanity suffer and died the same way, I'd be ok with that. I just think an evil ex is pretty lowscale and lame for RWBY and just not a good way to show someone consumed by hatred when they have good reasons for it.

TLDR: I just don't think all this stuff is well written.

I'm curious though, you yourself said Adam is a dead weight and seem to think he's not well written, may I ask why?

I think people expecting more Faunus racism are optimistic. Miles and Kerry have said they underestimated the difficulty of writing such a subplot and it is taking a backburner. Granted, they have new writers, but I wouldn't hold my breath
I never said I think Adam is poorly written. I said he was messily written because the mix of having him be a character who suffered racial predjudice + the abusive ex angle feels messy due to the contrast and mixed messages it sends regarding people who are actually victims of racism. But considering they went hard in on the abusive ex side and him being spiteful, I feel what they wrote makes sense for the character. Ultimately, Adam was dead weight on the show because there are so many other villains and side plots that keeping him around would have been annoying. At the end of the day, he was a character I found annoying because I accepted the angle they decided to go with him. That he is a spiteful person who chases after those who wronged him. He didn't really care about the Faunus, just himself.

Despite Killmonger killing black people in Black Panther, he did actually seem to want to raise the standard of life for all black people (imo, this does kinda feel a bit wishy washy in the MCU since it relies heavily on people acknowledging the gap black people endure in our real life, but the MCU has literally never addressed this fact until Black Panther). Killmongers final scene is him addressing the inequality black people face. Killmonger genuinely wanted to make life better for Black people.

But Adam actively didn't care. He only cared about himself.

Basically, I accepted Adam was a shit. He was basically Joffrey. I don't think he was poorly written, but I disliked his character immensely. I am glad he is gone, because hopefully the show can move onto better things.

Also I dislike a lot of Adam fanboys because they literally refuse to accept the character was a shit, and keep going on and on that he should have been heroic/tragic/etc mostly because they think he looks cool. That's basically it. That's why I call him "shitty furry vergil". He just looks cool. But he is a shit.
 

DragonSJG

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Mar 4, 2019
1,266
I never said I think Adam is poorly written. I said he was messily written because the mix of having him be a character who suffered racial predjudice + the abusive ex angle feels messy due to the contrast and mixed messages it sends regarding people who are actually victims of racism. But considering they went hard in on the abusive ex side and him being spiteful, I feel what they wrote makes sense for the character. Ultimately, Adam was dead weight on the show because there are so many other villains and side plots that keeping him around would have been annoying. At the end of the day, he was a character I found annoying because I accepted the angle they decided to go with him. That he is a spiteful person who chases after those who wronged him. He didn't really care about the Faunus, just himself.

Despite Killmonger killing black people in Black Panther, he did actually seem to want to raise the standard of life for all black people (imo, this does kinda feel a bit wishy washy in the MCU since it relies heavily on people acknowledging the gap black people endure in our real life, but the MCU has literally never addressed this fact until Black Panther). Killmongers final scene is him addressing the inequality black people face. Killmonger genuinely wanted to make life better for Black people.

But Adam actively didn't care. He only cared about himself.

Basically, I accepted Adam was a shit. He was basically Joffrey. I don't think he was poorly written, but I disliked his character immensely. I am glad he is gone, because hopefully the show can move onto better things.

Also I dislike a lot of Adam fanboys because they literally refuse to accept the character was a shit, and keep going on and on that he should have been heroic/tragic/etc mostly because they think he looks cool. That's basically it. That's why I call him "shitty furry vergil". He just looks cool. But he is a shit.
1. Yes, I agree that the racial prejudice and abusive ex did not mesh well and sends the wrong message. I personally don't feel like the abusive ex made sense since IMO it was not written well, comes out of nowhere and compared to other villains...his motive is super stupid and one dimensional/self contained. He's annoying because his motivation is laughable. IMO, Adam is a mess and one of the worst written characters I've ever seen.

Eh, I feel like Killmonger did but was more concerned about his own agenda. Adam at one point did care but in the end, becames self centered.

I'd just like to say what this person says makes sense on my issues with Adam. Magneto is not an accurate comparison since he cares about mutants, but I see what this guy is saying overall:

Racism topics need to be dealt with delicacy. Having an abusive hate sink also be the guy who we've seen suffer the most racism is a really risky choice and unless the writers knows in depth the effects of racism and it how it effects different people, it can be awful. Adam is supposed to be a victimized minority but he feels more like a radicalized white male, even having the incel part down. Radicilization caused by racism and radicalization done by an entitled privilige person in society are two different things and do not mesh well
 
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DragonSJG

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Mar 4, 2019
1,266
Do you think one should feel bad if you feel that the abuser plot wasn't done well or don't like it.I asked cuz I once called Adam an evil ex and someone said by doing this, I'm downplaying what abusive victims go through, which I don't agree with. Not to mention, it seems that abuse victims can see it as cathartic for Adam to get beaten, and sure if I want to take that away from them
 

tekomandor

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Oct 27, 2017
95
Racism topics need to be dealt with delicacy. Having an abusive hate sink also be the guy who we've seen suffer the most racism is a really risky choice and unless the writers knows in depth the effects of racism and it how it effects different people, it can be awful. Adam is supposed to be a victimized minority but he feels more like a radicalized white male, even having the incel part down. Radicilization caused by racism and radicalization done by an entitled privilige person in society are two different things and do not mesh well
There are plenty of shitty people who are the victim of institutional racism, sexism, etc. - some of them even get involved in activism.
 

DragonSJG

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Mar 4, 2019
1,266
There are plenty of shitty people who are the victim of institutional racism, sexism, etc. - some of them even get involved in activism.
I see what you mean. But my issue with Adam is he is the only one who has shown to have explicitly suffered the most out of any other Faunus, has legit reasons to hold a grudge against humanity and is the opposing side of a racism subplot, and his depiction is entirely negative and the racism which contributed to his descent isn't even addressed. I read Frantz Fanon's work on the effects of racism towards the colonized which is probably why I have issues with Adam and granted, I'm properly looking too deep into RWBY.
 

DragonSJG

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Mar 4, 2019
1,266
Another thing, do you think its true/accurate to say that most of the people critical of Bumblebee or think Adam was badly written fall into the anti-sjw campaign? I've seen quite a number of those guys have this belief but my threads on ERA I've made on this seem to have proven otherwise but still unsure
 

Sjay1994

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Oct 25, 2017
4,119
Another thing, do you think its true/accurate to say that most of the people critical of Bumblebee or think Adam was badly written fall into the anti-sjw campaign? I've seen quite a number of those guys have this belief but my threads on ERA I've made on this seem to have proven otherwise but still unsure
No, I don't think so.

There are some on youtube who do fall into that category, but I don't think saying all people who don't like how Adam was handled or dislike Bumblebee fall in that category. But, I am somewhat annoyed people think Bumblebee is bad because they think Blake and Yang are dating now because they held hands. Like, it's really stupid.