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SaberVS7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,253
Information on Episode 12

Episode 12 Information:

Episode Title: With Freinds Like These

Episode is 18-19 Minutes Long.

Description: With Salem's forces drawing closer, and the General's orders for their arrest, our heroes are forced to fight on all fronts to save the city Ironwood has abandoned

Image:
1579810074915.png

I'm still not sure if it's genius writing or absolute Facepalm Cringe that in the end, Ironwood so damned quickly turned out to be the very thing doing the things the cast had spent their efforts the entire rest of the volume trying to convince the people of Mantle & the Council that He Wasn't and Wouldn't Do.

I'm writing Ironwood down as a Villain from this point forward - But one of Stupidity rather than Malice. The end of Ep11 and presumably where Ep12 is going is going to be a massive tapestry of "No, dig UP dumbass!"
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,603
I'm still not sure if it's genius writing or absolute Facepalm Cringe that in the end, Ironwood so damned quickly turned out to be the very thing doing the things the cast had spent their efforts the entire rest of the volume trying to convince the people of Mantle & the Council that He Wasn't and Wouldn't Do.

I'm writing Ironwood down as a Villain from this point forward - But one of Stupidity rather than Malice. The end of Ep11 and presumably where Ep12 is going is going to be a massive tapestry of "No, dig UP dumbass!"

I think it is good writing. The reason is because this is all still internally consistent with Ironwood as a character. He is incredibly paranoid about who he can trust. He trusts people who are loyal to him, but doesn't trust those who aren't 100% on his side. His turn isn't coming out of the blue, but because he feels incredibly pressured because he now thinks that he had been played this whole time after thinking he had just won. When in reality he is getting played now.
 

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
72,803
I think it is good writing. The reason is because this is all still internally consistent with Ironwood as a character. He is incredibly paranoid about who he can trust. He trusts people who are loyal to him, but doesn't trust those who aren't 100% on his side. His turn isn't coming out of the blue, but because he feels incredibly pressured because he now thinks that he had been played this whole time after thinking he had just won. When in reality he is getting played now.
Makes sense honestly. James has been portrayed from the beginning as someone who values being in control of his own destiny at the very least extremely highly. His biggest failing isn't that he doesn't trust people it's that he trusts no one as much as he trusts his own judgement, the only exception possibly being Oz, and even then not all the time. Combine that with being made to look like a fool back at beacon and not even being able to 100% rely on something(his robots) that he should be able to trust implicitly has put him on a razor's edge since the fall of Beacon, and the animosity and distrust he generated via his overly strict rules and regulations especially on the people of mantle have clearly put an enormous amount of pressure on his own already weak ability to trust others. So it isn't surprising that team RWBY(blake and yang more specifically i guess) going behind his back for what was very much a benign and in the end very much beneficial reason caused him to turn on them. Ironwood is making the mistake of putting his judgement before everything else, and in the end that's what's going to lead to the downfall of atlas more than anything else because a city in the sky is a city isolated.
 

Crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,093
Just caught up. The beginning of Episode 11 was peak shonen nonsense and the sort of shit I started watching RWBY for <3 The insert song was just... *chef's kiss*.

I didn't expect Jacques to get his shit pushed in so fast but given how the later episodes have played out, they didn't really have time to linger on that plot any more than they needed to.

Not perfect but I've been enjoying this season a lot.
 

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
72,803
Just caught up. The beginning of Episode 11 was peak shonen nonsense and the sort of shit I started watching RWBY for <3 The insert song was just... *chef's kiss*.

I didn't expect Jacques to get his shit pushed in so fast but given how the later episodes have played out, they didn't really have time to linger on that plot any more than they needed to.

Not perfect but I've been enjoying this season a lot.
Jaques clip on tie wearing patsy ass didn't deserve any more shine than what he got
 

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
72,803
i noticed some person in that tweet was an adam defender, and i decided to check their profile...unsurprisingly they were a Vig stan...i kinda feel like there's a pretty big overlap there
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
Come on, this is the final stretch, they aren't going to botch this amazing volume on the last two episodes... Right?
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
Well, I was able to watch the episode...

SaberVS7 summed it up nicely.

Did they switch writers for this episode or something? Because that is one HELL of a writing stumble. Holy shit that was bad. Who wrote this and thought it would be OK? This is beyond Idiot Ball, this is downright out of character and thoroughly stupid from all parties involved.
 
Last edited:

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
72,803
I'll be honest reading the spoilers I think the controversial event was actually good writing and in character for the people involved
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
Regarding the controversial event (explained in details, so spoilers for everyone who doesn't have a premium account):
Robyn initiating the hostilities? I'm OK with it. She always was a bit hot headed, so I'm not surprised.
Clover doing his job? I'm fine with it.
Everyone entering a brawl, inside a plane, with a serial killer right next to them? OK, that's not smart and a bit of a stretch, but sure.
Tyrian escaping and causing the plane to crash? Predictable.
Crow and Clover having a brawl, despite Robyn's life potentially in danger? I know there is some kind of unresolved sexual tension between them, but come on, a lady is in danger, get your priorities straight.
A mélée à 3 between Clover, Tyrian and Crow?... This isn't smart. Tyrian is a danger to everyone here, the wisest thing to do would be to put their differences aside to subdue him.

Crow actually teaming up with Tyrian to take down Clover? That's the final straw. I don't agree with this development, and the conclusion of this fight.

Also, the dialogues were... corny.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Maybe it looks worse when you're actually watching it but reading these spoilers nothing really seems "oh my god the shows terrible now" to me.

Also I flat out love Oscar decking Neo. Have someone do that to Cinder next!
 

Schnee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
649
Honestly I can somewhat buy how they acted but Clover is still a colossal idiot for not attacking Tyrian until after he "teamed up" with Qrow.

Crow and Clover having a brawl, despite Robyn's life potentially in danger? I know there is some kind of unresolved sexual tension between them, but come on, a lady is in danger, get your priorities straight.

Qrow checked her pulse before he started fighting Clover tbf.
Not perfect considering the serial killer hanging around, but it's something.
 

PhoenixAKG

Member
Aug 14, 2019
7,812
Fights were good. Team RWBY beating Ace-Ops was cool but maybe a little questionable as these guys are pros. But Qrow, wow, what a dumbass. Award for stupid of the year goes to him. I mean teaming up with the deranged serial killer who tried to kill you moments before and nearly killed you? Ugh. Neo vs New JNPR. Neo is good but not THAT good, but who knows? I feel worried for Penny and Winter though as Cinder seems more than enough to take them both out. Overall good fights, and questionable writing decisions. I agree people held the idiot ball too much.
 

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
72,803
Fights were good. Team RWBY beating Ace-Ops was cool but maybe a little questionable as these guys are pros. But Qrow, wow, what a dumbass. Award for stupid of the year goes to him. I mean teaming up with the deranged serial killer who tried to kill you moments before and nearly killed you? Ugh. Neo vs New JNPR. Neo is good but not THAT good, but who knows? I feel worried for Penny and Winter though as Cinder seems more than enough to take them both out. Overall good fights, and questionable writing decisions. I agree people held the idiot ball too much.
my thinking on RWBY vs the ace ops is that the ace ops are all very skilled individually and have good teamwork, but only when they have someone's lead to follow, a.k.a. clover, also it was already foreshadowed by harriet earlier that they don't particularly care for each other so it doesn't surprise me that when their team synergy is different than normal they don't really know how to rely on each other properly
 

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
72,803
I can understand why some might feel that way

though I will say that I felt that any possible implied romantic attraction was from Qrow's side, I never really got that impression from Clover who just seemed like a personable and charismatic guy in general. LGBT people have had that happen a ton in the past and I can understand why they would feel that way in this case, but this doesn't stop Qrow from having a possible actual male love interest in the future.
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
Tensions high leading to a lot of dumb decisions by everyone involved

d3578a.gif


Wasn't expecting Team RWBY to wipe out most of the Ace Ops, but teamwork triumphs over everything so I'm good with it (especially since the Aces were the "professional relationship only" types.

The scene with Oscar and Neo is so damn good. Neo pretty much held her own against Cinder before she triggered the Maiden power so I'm pretty sure she can handle JNR, Oscar's the real wildcard in that fight.
 

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
72,803
Tensions high leading to a lot of dumb decisions by everyone involved

d3578a.gif


Wasn't expecting Team RWBY to wipe out most of the Ace Ops, but teamwork triumphs over everything so I'm good with it (especially since the Aces were the "professional relationship only" types.

The scene with Oscar and Neo is so damn good.
Even Oscar gets to punch Oscar
 

Milk

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,816
Really wish there were 2 or 3 more episodes this volume. There is so much on the plate for this finale next week. Either everything's gonna be rushed as hell or they're gonna end it on a massive cliffhanger right as it gets spicy. Ugh.
 

Schnee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
649
Really wish there were 2 or 3 more episodes this volume. There is so much on the plate for this finale next week. Either everything's gonna be rushed as hell or they're gonna end it on a massive cliffhanger right as it gets spicy. Ugh.

Volume 8 is meant to be a Part 2 so yeah, I expect a huge ass cliffhanger.
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
Props to the team for starting and ending fights in the same episode for the most part this volume. Rewatching Vol 6 was hilarious because those final fights stretched over like 4 weeks when they first aired

Edit: As far as that one fight goes

Here's how I saw what happened between Qrow/Tyrian/Clover. Qrow did everything for Ozpin without question and had that blind trust completely shattered last volume. He knows that Ironwood is wrong and doesn't want Clover to go through the same fate as him. I think Qrow is wrong on that front (and it was handled clumsily as hell in the episode), but I sort of get it.
 
Last edited:

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
72,803
Props to the team for starting and ending fights in the same episode for the most part this volume. Rewatching Vol 6 was hilarious because those final fights stretched over like 4 weeks when they first aired
this might be because I watched them all at once but I thought the cliffhangers for Blake/Yang vs Adam were pretty good at least
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,603
I have so many thoughts about this episode.

Like I said earlier, I think I have a hot take thinking the writing of this episode was really good... but I understand why people think the writing is bad because the characters made frustrating decisions

I'm not going to spend too much time on Team RWBY vs The Ace Ops because the show actually used "show don't tell" to show why Team RWBY won.

Because they are all on the same page. Where as the Ace Ops are clearly not. Marrow and Vine are holding back, while Harriet and Elm are getting irritated and annoyed. This is not "well, their power level is higher because they are more experienced, so Team RWBY should have lost"

Normally I hate the "power of friendship triumphs over an obstacle" because usually its a character going on a long winded speech about "how their friends give them power, etc". Blake and Yang complemented each other so well, because both of them were on the same page while Elm and Vine were not.

Team RWBY vs The Ace Ops was fantastic. It was excellent "show, don't tell"

Now with the stuff with the characters on the airship. Oh boy

I understand why people are frustrated, but I think a lot of criticism I've seen here and on twitter is that "the characters got the idiot ball" but I don't think that's the case. When I see people saying "characters are not doing logical things, the writing is bad" I think these people are judging character actions based on a third person perspective, rather than a first person perspective.

People are asking "why would they do that?" when the question I think should be asked are "why are they doing that?"

And with Qrow, Clover and Robyn all three have reasons that are internally consistent with their characters that make their decisions make sense.

  • Robyn: Has just been told that after allying with Ironwood, he has betrayed her and the people of Mantle by leaving them to die. She is established as quick to anger, and starts the fight.
  • Qrow: Has just been told Ironwood is abandoning Mantle, and now hears that Clover has orders to arrest him. Qrow has no idea about what happened in Ironwood's office, and now thinks Ironwood is betraying him.
  • Clover: He puts absolute trust into Ironwood's decisions. Because of this he breaks his bond with Qrow because he believes in Ironwood and doesn't question his instructions.
And all three of these characters made a horrific mistake.

The entire theme of this volume has been TRUST

Everything went so well at the beginning of Episode 11 because all the characters trusted each other. They worked together, and they won.

But Salem successfully divided them. Ironwood's paranoia and decisions made him an enemy of Qrow and Robyn. And Clover shows that his allegiances are to Ironwood first.

People keep saying "Clover should have prioritized Tyrian first" or "How could Qrow team up with Tyrian"

And the reasoning for both is as follows

For Clover, he has been given orders to arrest Qrow from the highest authority (Ironwood). He doesn't question these orders, he goes along with them and forsakes his relationship with Qrow. He isn't differentiating the severity of crimes because both Qrow and Tyrian are wanted men. So his job is now to neutralize them both. He can't say to Qrow, "help me take down Tyrion so I can arrest you later", so Clover is on his own in this free for all.

Qrow is now considered wanted, and knows that Clover won't stop until he is apprehended. So he begrudgingly works with Tyrian to get Clover out of the fight so he can fight off Tyrian. And this is the critical error Qrow made because since he can't trust Clover anymore his begrudging alliance with Tyrian backfires completely like Tyrians inspiration of "the scorpion and the frog"

And the problem is that the trust between Clover and Qrow has been dissolved due to Ironwood's decision.

And that's where the huge tragedy of this episode is.

This whole thing could have been avoided if the characters literally just talked it out

But they didn't. Because Trust died between them.

Clover didn't need to die. And that's why this episode feels like such a gut punch. Because you, the audience as a third party can see these characters are making huge mistakes. The characters themselves can not see it because of their own internal character logic.

I genuinely think this episode had good writing, but I understand why people might think it's bad. Because the characters made frustrating, easy to see mistakes, but because they can't trust each other anymore... they didn't realize they were making mistakes.
 

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
72,803
I have so many thoughts about this episode.

Like I said earlier, I think I have a hot take thinking the writing of this episode was really good... but I understand why people think the writing is bad because the characters made frustrating decisions

I'm not going to spend too much time on Team RWBY vs The Ace Ops because the show actually used "show don't tell" to show why Team RWBY won.

Because they are all on the same page. Where as the Ace Ops are clearly not. Marrow and Vine are holding back, while Harriet and Elm are getting irritated and annoyed. This is not "well, their power level is higher because they are more experienced, so Team RWBY should have lost"

Normally I hate the "power of friendship triumphs over an obstacle" because usually its a character going on a long winded speech about "how their friends give them power, etc". Blake and Yang complemented each other so well, because both of them were on the same page while Elm and Vine were not.

Team RWBY vs The Ace Ops was fantastic. It was excellent "show, don't tell"

Now with the stuff with the characters on the airship. Oh boy

I understand why people are frustrated, but I think a lot of criticism I've seen here and on twitter is that "the characters got the idiot ball" but I don't think that's the case. When I see people saying "characters are not doing logical things, the writing is bad" I think these people are judging character actions based on a third person perspective, rather than a first person perspective.

People are asking "why would they do that?" when the question I think should be asked are "why are they doing that?"

And with Qrow, Clover and Robyn all three have reasons that are internally consistent with their characters that make their decisions make sense.

  • Robyn: Has just been told that after allying with Ironwood, he has betrayed her and the people of Mantle by leaving them to die. She is established as quick to anger, and starts the fight.
  • Qrow: Has just been told Ironwood is abandoning Mantle, and now hears that Clover has orders to arrest him. Qrow has no idea about what happened in Ironwood's office, and now thinks Ironwood is betraying him.
  • Clover: He puts absolute trust into Ironwood's decisions. Because of this he breaks his bond with Qrow because he believes in Ironwood and doesn't question his instructions.
And all three of these characters made a horrific mistake.

The entire theme of this volume has been TRUST

Everything went so well at the beginning of Episode 11 because all the characters trusted each other. They worked together, and they won.

But Salem successfully divided them. Ironwood's paranoia and decisions made him an enemy of Qrow and Robyn. And Clover shows that his allegiances are to Ironwood first.

People keep saying "Clover should have prioritized Tyrian first" or "How could Qrow team up with Tyrian"

And the reasoning for both is as follows

For Clover, he has been given orders to arrest Qrow from the highest authority (Ironwood). He doesn't question these orders, he goes along with them and forsakes his relationship with Qrow. He isn't differentiating the severity of crimes because both Qrow and Tyrian are wanted men. So his job is now to neutralize them both. He can't say to Qrow, "help me take down Tyrion so I can arrest you later", so Clover is on his own in this free for all.

Qrow is now considered wanted, and knows that Clover won't stop until he is apprehended. So he begrudgingly works with Tyrian to get Clover out of the fight so he can fight off Tyrian. And this is the critical error Qrow made because since he can't trust Clover anymore his begrudging alliance with Tyrian backfires completely like Tyrians inspiration of "the scorpion and the frog"

And the problem is that the trust between Clover and Qrow has been dissolved due to Ironwood's decision.

And that's where the huge tragedy of this episode is.

This whole thing could have been avoided if the characters literally just talked it out

But they didn't. Because Trust died between them.

Clover didn't need to die. And that's why this episode feels like such a gut punch. Because you, the audience as a third party can see these characters are making huge mistakes. The characters themselves can not see it because of their own internal character logic.

I genuinely think this episode had good writing, but I understand why people might think it's bad. Because the characters made frustrating, easy to see mistakes, but because they can't trust each other anymore... they didn't realize they were making mistakes.
yeah i agree with all of this
also anyone hoping Clover would disobey Ironwood was kidding themselves, he's the most by the books loyal one in the entire Ace Ops, why do you think he was the leader?
 

PhoenixAKG

Member
Aug 14, 2019
7,812
I have so many thoughts about this episode.

Like I said earlier, I think I have a hot take thinking the writing of this episode was really good... but I understand why people think the writing is bad because the characters made frustrating decisions

I'm not going to spend too much time on Team RWBY vs The Ace Ops because the show actually used "show don't tell" to show why Team RWBY won.

Because they are all on the same page. Where as the Ace Ops are clearly not. Marrow and Vine are holding back, while Harriet and Elm are getting irritated and annoyed. This is not "well, their power level is higher because they are more experienced, so Team RWBY should have lost"

Normally I hate the "power of friendship triumphs over an obstacle" because usually its a character going on a long winded speech about "how their friends give them power, etc". Blake and Yang complemented each other so well, because both of them were on the same page while Elm and Vine were not.

Team RWBY vs The Ace Ops was fantastic. It was excellent "show, don't tell"

Now with the stuff with the characters on the airship. Oh boy

I understand why people are frustrated, but I think a lot of criticism I've seen here and on twitter is that "the characters got the idiot ball" but I don't think that's the case. When I see people saying "characters are not doing logical things, the writing is bad" I think these people are judging character actions based on a third person perspective, rather than a first person perspective.

People are asking "why would they do that?" when the question I think should be asked are "why are they doing that?"

And with Qrow, Clover and Robyn all three have reasons that are internally consistent with their characters that make their decisions make sense.

  • Robyn: Has just been told that after allying with Ironwood, he has betrayed her and the people of Mantle by leaving them to die. She is established as quick to anger, and starts the fight.
  • Qrow: Has just been told Ironwood is abandoning Mantle, and now hears that Clover has orders to arrest him. Qrow has no idea about what happened in Ironwood's office, and now thinks Ironwood is betraying him.
  • Clover: He puts absolute trust into Ironwood's decisions. Because of this he breaks his bond with Qrow because he believes in Ironwood and doesn't question his instructions.
And all three of these characters made a horrific mistake.

The entire theme of this volume has been TRUST

Everything went so well at the beginning of Episode 11 because all the characters trusted each other. They worked together, and they won.

But Salem successfully divided them. Ironwood's paranoia and decisions made him an enemy of Qrow and Robyn. And Clover shows that his allegiances are to Ironwood first.

People keep saying "Clover should have prioritized Tyrian first" or "How could Qrow team up with Tyrian"

And the reasoning for both is as follows

For Clover, he has been given orders to arrest Qrow from the highest authority (Ironwood). He doesn't question these orders, he goes along with them and forsakes his relationship with Qrow. He isn't differentiating the severity of crimes because both Qrow and Tyrian are wanted men. So his job is now to neutralize them both. He can't say to Qrow, "help me take down Tyrion so I can arrest you later", so Clover is on his own in this free for all.

Qrow is now considered wanted, and knows that Clover won't stop until he is apprehended. So he begrudgingly works with Tyrian to get Clover out of the fight so he can fight off Tyrian. And this is the critical error Qrow made because since he can't trust Clover anymore his begrudging alliance with Tyrian backfires completely like Tyrians inspiration of "the scorpion and the frog"

And the problem is that the trust between Clover and Qrow has been dissolved due to Ironwood's decision.

And that's where the huge tragedy of this episode is.

This whole thing could have been avoided if the characters literally just talked it out

But they didn't. Because Trust died between them.

Clover didn't need to die. And that's why this episode feels like such a gut punch. Because you, the audience as a third party can see these characters are making huge mistakes. The characters themselves can not see it because of their own internal character logic.

I genuinely think this episode had good writing, but I understand why people might think it's bad. Because the characters made frustrating, easy to see mistakes, but because they can't trust each other anymore... they didn't realize they were making mistakes.

Even though I don't agree with you fully I am impressed that you wrote all that and actually really can see your points.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,603
Man, I feel bad looking at the twitters of the new writers.

Some people dogging on them for baiting and calling for their firing (although that guy was the one making some real transphobic arguments about "May needing narrative reasoning to be trans")

But I think it's nice Eddy is taking into consideration about how to avoid "baiting" people