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RWBYERA |OT| Volume 9: Zwei, I have a feeling we're not in Remnant anymore
- Thread starter Geist
- Start date
When is the episode available for non-First members? I didn't know they put the show behind a paywall. :(
Thanks, now to dodge spoilers until then. *ducks out of thread*
Re-quoting this for the people who are waiting for the free release, since the OP will likely be ripped and up all over YouTube before then.
Yeah. There's a pretty big spoiler in the OP.
Adam couldn't say anything real about the Faunus cause because he wasn't really about the Faunus cause. He latched on to a cause as a means to gather power and control to himself, and give himself an excuse to engage in murder and wanton cruelty.
Weiss's interactions with Blake are more valuable because Blake actually does passionately believe in the cause.
Weiss could see directly how bad Faunus have it and the full extent of the cruelties of her father's company. Adam could use his brand as a way to manipulate Weiss psychologically which could her throw off her guard if they fought. It could make her also question if she can really redeem her family's name as there would be constant reminders like Adam who would never let go of the past.
That can be done with a different, character, though. Weiss seeing the conditions in the mines through her own eyes would make her question whether her family can be redeemed - and not because of people like Adam, but because no matter how much good she does going forward she can never take back the harm her father has already done.
Having that lesson come from Adam would give Weiss an easy out. She wouldn't have to face it head on, because it's being presented by a bad faith actor.
Why can't do Adam all the things you mentioned in your first paragraph? He still would fit in there to me.
I disagree that it would be an easy way out. Seeing someone with a literal SDC brand on their face seems pretty head on to me. Even if Adam isn't sincere he can still be manipulative enough to press Weiss to face it head on.
Ultimately, I think it's because it runs directly counter to the writer's vision for Adam. They have been very adamant that, since Adam is an abuser, they did not want to make him sympathetic. If they focused on how he suffered, it would encourage a portion of the fanbase to see him as someone who could be saved, and feed into shipping him and Blake. They didn't want to promote the idea of a sympathetic abuser because of the effect that trope can have on the lens people view real world abusive relationships through.
Also, Adam isn't a main character. He isn't even a main antagonist. His purpose in the story was the role he played in Blake's life, and there wasn't room to give him a second side plot with other characters. He definitely could use it to manipulate Weiss, but it would just make the show bloated and give Adam an outsized role in the series.
As for Weiss, it wasn't the right time to run the "face the SDC's past" part of her plot. After running away from home, she needed space in her storyline to establish who she is outside of being the Schnee heiress. The right time for her to face the crimes of her family is going to be after she re-connects with the other rogue Schnee, Winter. When they're deciding what it should mean to be a Schnee going forward.
People still feel sympathetic for Cinder, think she can be redeemed(one of the host of RWBY Rewind expressed this opinion once) and ship her with Emerald despite her being just as bad an abuser as Adam and showing no sympathetic qualities. Cinder's backstory is also implied to be like Cinderella's and there's the implication we might get to see it soon based on the comments in the guidebook. So much for not feeling making the audience feel sympathy for abusers. So I'm not sure about your first point.
I see the rest of your points, but I ultimately digress, but going into detail would involve a discussion about what could've been in RWBY.
With what you said, I'm gonna say it wasn't a good idea to have the guy whose suffered the most racism in the show and be a central part of a racism plot is an abusive hatesink who doesn't give a shit about the racism at all, especially since Miles and Kerry said Cinder has pretty much the same backstory, rendering Adam's racism part of his backstory pointless. You pointed out my issue with Adam. He's meant to be an abuser but also someone blinded by his suffering and the show decided to focus more emphasis on that
Isn't this why they made more really nasty in volume 5 though to curtail sympathy for her?
Thanks for covering for me
But yeah, I've already gone over this much earlier in this thread.
- Adam is a bad faith actor and ironically a "virtue signaler". He was never interested in the betterment of the Faunus, just himself. He is if MLK or other revolutionary figures did what they did not for the benefit of their people, but because they wanted to be famous, celebrated, etc.
- Weiss doesn't really get much out of the interaction asides from "my dad is a bad man" and I don't think she ever questioned that idea ever
Ultimately Weiss should confront the thing that produces people like Adam, not just Adam who ultimately just wanted to lash out at a world and anyone he deemed had wronged him.
Remember how Adam got Mercury and Emerald to murder the bookstore owner at the start of V2? Does he really seem like a guy who actually cared about his people? It's literally "join or die" with him.
Ilia's parents were both killed in the mines, and people joked and laughed about it.
Adam is not "the center" of the Faunus plotline. Blake is.
Just because Adam suffered, it shouldn't excuse his actions or the show should try to justify him. I honestly kinda appreciate they were more honest with the fact that Adam only cared about himself opposed to people thinking "Killmonger is this amazing villain" when he is shown to be just as self centered as Adam is, but BP tries to make it seem like he was right all along.
The brand isn't worthless. It shows what might have put Adam down this path, but it shouldn't justify his actions
Also where did they say Cinder's backstory is the same as Adams?
I acknowledge Killmonger is just as selfish as Adam. At the core their basically the same character. The difference is Killmonger did it good while Adam did it awful. The thing about Killmonger is that his anger is justified (check out Frantz Fanon or other authors who write about anger due to oppression) and he has the right points in some areas which is why he ideologically challenges T'Challa so much but his core motivation and methods are the problem. That's what makes him an effective villain. For Adam when I want him to meet Weiss I kind of want something like that. I know Adam never cared about the Faunus (maybe he did but by the time we see him in the show he doesn't).
By center I think he meant one of the main faces of the storyline which he was.
Where did I ever say his actions are justified? I was saying it gives reasons for why he acts like it. Like Magneto for example. His actions are not justified but there is a reason why he acts this way and the comics/media address that part.
Ilia was horrible but Adam was literally a slave since birth and tortured his whole life and branded was the culmination of his entire life of subjugation.
With Killmonger, the reason for me is the focus of his hatred is the racism aspect and the film shows the issue/root of his suffering is racism. With Adam, RWBY doesn't even address the racism behind his character despite being part of a racism plotline, which IMO, undermines it. Someone once mentioned If Magneto had Sabretooths personality, it would undermine the x-men plot. And yes, Adam is the main antagonist of the plot like Magneto in X-men, so he's important for it.
What I meant was the racism behind his brand is worthless as you can have Adam be some punk human who was in the wrong place at the wrong time and got branded and it'd be the same and Cinder's backstory pretty much confirms this
They said in a recent book Cinders backstory is akin to cinderella
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I'm sorry what?
Where are you getting all this from? The Amity Arena card? It just said he worked at the mines. They aren't slaves. Slavery was part of Faunus history, but in the time the show takes place they are workers whom are given awful conditions to work in and seemingly can not break the glass ceiling.
You don't know why he was branded. No one does, but it's enough to understand he did suffer. The problem is Adam simply lashes out at everyone he deems wronged him
- He wants to kill humans because they wronged him
- He ordered Emerald and Mercury to kill that bookstore owner because he tried to leave the WF
- He wants to kill Blake because she left him
- He killed the Faunus in the throneroom because they questioned him
He is the "cursed rose" according to the book. He is not the key to Faunus Liberation. And trying to claim Adam and Cinder have the same backstory because Cinder is based on Cinderella is a logical fallacy.
I don't know what else to tell you, but that thing I quoted makes it feel like you are completely lost in "Adam headcannon" and refuse to accept the character he was supposed to be.
In the course of the narrative of BP, is Killmongers anger really justified? His anger comes from the main fact he was left behind after his father was killed and had to live in America. The movie doesn't actually show the racism KM faced, and instead the audience fills in the blanks because "he is black".
That "justfication" people have is because they fill in the blanks with real world examples.
It's questionable if Killmonger actually cared about the wellbeing of black people considering he had 0 issues shooting his black girlfriend dead, so saying he cares about "black lives" is questionable since he seems to have zero qualms with the idea of murdering black people. He is all about punishing the people who wronged him.
And likewise, Adam is also about punishing people who wronged him.
The big reason Killmonger works to question T'challa is it doesn't just question his faith in Wakanda's traditions, but also his faith in his father. Until he knew the truth about Killmonger, T'challa thought his father was a great man. Learning his father abandoned Killmonger is what shakes his faith and what makes him want to change the traditions of Wakanda.
Now swap that over to Weiss. Weiss knows her father is a terrible person. She has no romantized view of him like T'challa had for his father. The reality is Weiss would gain nothing from interacting with Adam in the same way T'challa gained something from Killmonger. She knows her father is a terrible man. She knows how he has polluted the name of Schnee (a name that is not even his). Her father is an usurper. And Adam shouldn't be the one to make her question things like if it's possible to redeem her family name. It should be people suffering in silence in her family's mines. Not a radical who only ever cared about himself.
Weiss gains nothing from interacting with Adam. Adam is Blake and Yang's villain.
Killmonger's anger is justified as he grew up seeing the worst of racial oppression America has to offer. The movie doesn't need to show it as its presence is communicated by Killmonger's demeanor and the anger he shows. I admit since I'm African-American I can probably get it more easily than non-African-Americans.
Yeah I can grab that Killmonger doesn't really care about the well-being black people. It's pretty obvious.
I was using Killmonger as an example of an ideological villain who challenges the hero but doesn't have the best intentions at heart. I wasn't saying Weiss and Adam would have that dynamic exactly. As for your last point, why in the 4th paragraph, why can't Adam do that? Killmonger still challenges T'Challa despite only caring mainly about himself as you yourself pointed out. Having someone who was wronged by the SDC and refuses to let go would show the depths of their crimes and a constant reminder of them as the crimes can be displayed on his face. There are plenty of villains motivated by revenge and their own gain who greatly question the hero's attempt at redemption, like Daniel Holtz from Angel.
Signed up for a free trial of RT First. That chapter moved quick, watching this week to week is going to test my patience. T_T
So happy that Penny is alive again and they didn't have her forget her memories of Ruby, though the execution left something to be desired. Regardless of me shipping them, their reunion didn't have as much emotional weight as it needed. (The creative team does drop the ball when it comes to dramatic moments quite frequently.) Though she fucking rocket lunged at Ruby, which was very amusing and cute. Meanwhile Yang and Blake had very little interaction this episode, but I can let that go since this chapter needed to move the plot forward. (Yang should have beat up that guy talking shit to Blake instead of Weiss, if you ask me.) All that aside, the action was pretty damn good. It's always good seeing them fight enemies without plot armor. Vale is definitely Battle Angel Alita inspired but Mantle didn't turn out to be as much of a slum as I expected.
Because one of the big themes of BP is legacy. Killmonger is the product of his fathers mistake. For abandoning him to live in America.This shatters T'Challa's views of the rulers of Wakanda and is what makes him want to reach out and help the rest of the world with the technology Wakanda has.
Adam doesn't have that same impact on Weiss because she knows her father is a terrible person. Weiss doesn't have the same prejudice she had when the show started as she is more accepting of Faunus. She has gone from making racist remarks against Blake to actively defending Blake from racist remarks. Weiss is not her father. That's why Adam can't challenge her. He is just one of many people whom have suffered at the hands of the SDC. This is a truth Weiss is aware of. She might not know the extent of how bad it is, and I think it's better for Weiss to confront that issue en masse instead of with Adam.
Also, I think it would just bloat the scenes and the writing would become really sloppy since now you are adding a third character who is trying to get Adam to leave peacefully. Blake and Yang both make attempts to make Adam leave them alone, but he simply won't listen.
Yang had no reason to. She's had little to no involvement in the Faunus subplot and putting her in now would be awkward and clumsy. Also it would just end up regulating the subplot to a shipping device which would make an already messy subplot even worse.
I already said I didn't want Adam and Weiss to have an exact replica of the BP dynamic. I used it as an example as I already clarified.
I really disagree. Like I said he can show her the extent of their crimes and first hand how it happens. How would seeing someone maimed by the SDC and going down a path of violence due to said treatment not make her say question if her families legacy can be redeemed? Knowing how manipulative Adam is he could get into her head and guilt trip her/make her doubt herself. I don't why you're so strongly against Weiss and Adam interacting.
I dislike the idea because it feels too bloated.
We already have Blake and Yang confronting Adam, I feel adding a third character into that mix just makes the plotline bloated. Because look at it like this, Adam technically has ties to 3 of the characters in Team RWBY. He used to date Blake, cutoff Yang's arm, and used to work for the SDC. So if you are writing this potential conflict, you now have to somehow balance Adam's two sources of ire. You also have to account for Yang's issues with Adam, and you also need to explain why Ruby is or isn't there in this conflict.
Them showing the scar shows his suffering, but it shouldn't be on Weiss to think of Adam as this idea that her name is irredeemable.
I don't like talking about "what ifs" in RWBY because that basically requires you to undo a lot of what the show did and honestly I feel for the writers because they constantly think of how they could have executed something differently.
I don't disagree with the idea Weiss should doubt her ability to redeem her family's name, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that Adam is the character that should make her do that.
Considering we are seeing the Dust Mines this volume, I think this is the best chance for Weiss to confront that. Through the people suffering in silence, not the radical lashing out at everything he deems has wronged him.
Totally forgot that season 7 had arrived.
Also damn, Jaune's new look is nice, although farewell Pumpkin Pete hoodie.
Penny is back, and retained her memories! :O Was sweet when she rocket jumped at Ruby lol.
Also damn, Jaune's new look is nice, although farewell Pumpkin Pete hoodie.
Thinking about it more, Weiss was the better choice for the moment since Yang doesn't do subtle. Though Yang cares about Blake and they are committed to protecting each other, so she's going to enter the subplot at some point.
As someone new to the thread, I don't mind that Adam was such an underdeveloped character. He didn't need human depth since he was Blake's past trauma incarnate and then eventually Yang and Blake's shared trauma. That was his purpose.
Lionized literally said he "taunted and tortured, insulted and reviled since he was a child. He was practically a slave is what I meant"
And no, I know what character was, i'm not lost in any headcanon and its clear he was branded due to racism.
What I mean is because he and Cinder both were abuse and suffered/mistreated, which fuels their desire for power and evil nature
I wish people could just drop him and move on.
He is just a blight on discussion about this show
I'd just like to clarify that PhoenixAKG and I aren't Adam stans or anything who think he should have been a racial savior/hero or something or think he should have been an anti-hero or the usual Adam stand nonsense. We're critical of him in regards to the racism subplot
And thats fine, but the problem is the show and multiple supplementary information has hard declared Adam as someone who was in it for himself and was an abuser. The problem is you keep treating the racism plotline like it is done, or over extending Adam's role in the show for him being a foil for a third character (he is a villain for Blake and Yang, throwing Weiss in there as well makes the plotline bloated)
I agree with the sentiment of tying a racism plotline + an abuse plotline was messy and probably ill advised. However the showrunners made the decision to focus on the abuse route, and instead of accepting the role they assigned for Adam you keep going "no, they should have gone the other route".
You are still fundamentally trying to change the character Adam is or trying to give him more roles in the show than he needed.
They are literally in Atlas where someone like Adam was produced through the treatment of Faunus. They don't need to explore Adam's treatment or treat him as special when countless other Faunus have to deal with race issues.
They literally show you the plotline isn't done because Blake is berated by a racist drunk and you see Faunus leaving the mines covered in dirt and look morbid
In that case, then it was a mistake to have a character like Adam be central to a racism plotline. I'm not trying to change him. Like with Killmonger, I just wish the show focused more on the racism aspects of character as he feels like a generic someone who lost their way regardless of racism or not
He isn't central to the "racism plotline"
He is central to "Blake's plotline"
He is a part of Blake's past that she regrets.
There are various parts to the "racism plotline" such as Ilia, the entire Menagerie arc, etc.
The entire purpose of V4-5 was to convince Faunus they shouldn't follow someone like Adam because he doesn't have their best interest at heart. Just his own. And you see this when he tries to bomb and kill himself, his subordinates and the Menagerie Faunus to avoid being arrested. He is to the racism plotline as "a person you should not follow" He is the cursed rose.
Adam is not the "core" of the racism plotline.
He is part of it. He is core to Blake's plotline, which is her escaping from an abusive relationship.