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Atheerios

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,097
Very interesting interview about Masahiro Sakurai's views on Melee and the Smash competitive scene:

"I think a lot of Melee players love Melee. But at the same time, I think a lot of players, on the other hand, gave up on Melee because it's too technical, because they can't keep up with it. And I know there were players who got tendinitis from playing, and messing with the controller so much … that really is hard on the player and I feel like a game should really focus on what the target audience is."

Regarding to catering to the competitive scene or the casual audience:

"When you talk about audience, I don't really think too much about the audience per se. I feel like a game, at the end of the day, is about playing the game. But if we focus too much on the top level players — or the audience — then the game skews a little bit too much on the technical side."

More at https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...-technical-because-they-cant-keep-up-with-it/
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
3,722
The tendonitis is why I will never play melee again. Why even bother if the bare minimum to be remotely competent at the game risks injury?
 

HMS_Pinafore

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,146
Straya M8
He's right, Smash ultimate looks to be finding a nice middle ground where it can be less defensive then 4, while not having a huge skill gap.
 

MrConbon210

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,647
Wow, I actually agree with him.

All of my friends act like Smash is some ultra advanced fighter. Whenever we play they remove items, restrict what charecters we could be and restrict the maps. It makes the game completely unfun.

The game has fucking Dr. Mario beating up Solid Snake while also fighting Mr. Game & Watch and the Wii Fit trainer. I want to play and have a laugh, not get super competitive.

Nobody plays Mario Kart like that so idk why people insist that's how Smash needs to play.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Very interesting interview about Masahiro Sakurai views on Melee and the Smash competitive scene:

Regarding to catering to the competitive scene or the casual audience:

More at https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...-technical-because-they-cant-keep-up-with-it/
That's going to make a lot of hardcore, uber-pro competitive players upset... but he's right.

I actually say the same thing to a lot of fighting games, especially Street Fighter V. When you focus exclusively on the top level players, you're going to leave a large percentage of your players left behind. Of course, the ideal balance is low level entry, high skill floor.

Though I am curious how the competitive scene will view the next Smash. The "Melee-only" crowd I doubt will ever truly go away, but I think the series can offer even them more than just an influx the same five characters and Final Destination stages.
 

PensivePen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
392
I mean, he's not wrong. Melee players have stuck to Melee while the majority move on to the latest game.
I don't think players moved on because melee was too technical. I think they moved on because the new game had more characters, more stages, etc, etc and because, you know, it was the newest game. The same reason most newer games in a series get more play than the older games.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
Wow, I actually agree with him.

All of my friends act like Smash is some ultra advanced fighter. Whenever we play they remove items, restrict what charecters we could be and restrict the maps. It makes the game completely unfun.

The game has fucking Dr. Mario beating up Solid Snake while also fighting Mr. Game & Watch and the Wii Fit trainer. I want to play and have a laugh, not get super competitive.

Nobody plays Mario Kart like that so idk why people insist that's how Smash needs to play.

Because they find it fun to play like that, when they do play it like that it does become an ultra advanced fighter.

If you don't like that, that is ok. Don't get upset other folks like that though.
 

New002

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,703
Had dejavu for a second. Doesn't he say this same thing every few years? It is known.
 

goldenpp73

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
2,144
Wow, I actually agree with him.

All of my friends act like Smash is some ultra advanced fighter. Whenever we play they remove items, restrict what charecters we could be and restrict the maps. It makes the game completely unfun.

The game has fucking Dr. Mario beating up Solid Snake while also fighting Mr. Game & Watch and the Wii Fit trainer. I want to play and have a laugh, not get super competitive.

Nobody plays Mario Kart like that so idk why people insist that's how Smash needs to play.

Because Smash is actually incredibly deep as a competitive game and certain things disrupt the flow of that. Though I find most people go too far with it. Forum sorts who follow the competitive scene and then force their content picks to match despite not being great at the game are hilarious.

Like tiers, sorry timmy but that D rank character you won't use actually isn't ranked for your skill level and doesn't apply to you, but pretending is fun.
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
Sakurai's disdain for the competitive scene is well known at this point, I think you can safely say.
 

JoeyJungle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
560
Maybe? I loved Melee, but def there was a difficulty competing if you weren't using advanced techniques like wavedashing and stuff. None of my friends I played with regularly used those things though, and since there was no online play I hardly ever played against someone who did, so we had a ton of fun with it.

I think Brawl swung too hard in the casual direction, with the Smash Ball thing turning it more into a wacky party game more like Power Stone. and tripping throwing random advantages/disadvantages into the mix the way Mario Party/Mario Kart does.

I'm glad he's still giving attention to players that have no interest in competitive level/tournament play, I just hope they're able to find a good balance.
 

MrConbon210

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,647
Because they find it fun to play like that, when they do play it like that it does become an ultra advanced fighter.

If you don't like that, that is ok. Don't get upset other folks like that though.

I just don't see why acting like we're in an official tournament is fun at parties. We're drunk and sitting in a basement, just let me pick up a baseball bat and wack somebody. Nobody wants to play Mario Kart without any items.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
Don't cater to the top percentage of players if accessibility is compromised.
This is good for fighting games in general.

Like obviously don't remove skill entirely but one complaint I don't get is people being upset , for example at SFV for the combos being easier to do " Anyone can do the combos now " Yes, that's good, that means more people will have fun with it
 

BroodShadow

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
188
Don't agree with this at all the technical side of smash does not have a huge influence on the party modes so I'm not sure why they can't make a game that plays like melee at top end play but have all the items modes of the new games for the causal players like I don't understand why it's one or the the other.
 

Zombine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,231
He's been echoing this since he made Brawl frustrating just for the sake of adding in crappy mechanics. At its heart, I feel like the melee tournament scene and content present in that game is what gave the series the legs it did. "I hope this one is like Melee!" Has been another sentiment for years, not because people want a game exactly like Melee, but because they want a game that can be mined for depth for years to come. I'm not one of these guys who actively participates in high end play, but I absolutely understand where they're coming from, and he should focus on mechanics for those that want them, and bonus content and items for those who just want to jerk around with their favorite Nintendo characters. I don't think adding tripping or isolating those that are still playing your games years later is the way to go.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
This attitude makes no sense whatsoever. Nothing forced casual players to even play on competitive settings, much less try to learn advanced tech (some of which wasn't even popularized until after Brawl came out anyway). The game had a great single player content, a ton of local multiplayer modes, and didn't have an online mode where people would get bodied. It's basically the perfect example of how to make a game both competitive and accessible at the same time

He also has no evidence whatsoever for this statement given that there's no way for Nintendo to get player behavior statistics about it like games nowadays do.
Nobody plays Mario Kart like that so idk why people insist that's how Smash needs to play.
Mario Kart doesn't let you turn off items to begin with.
 

Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
well he is completely right
Sakurai's disdain for the competitive scene is well known at this point, I think you can safely say.
it's not disdain

it's "several million people but the game, why should i base my decision around what is an extremely minority of that

he is the director hired by nintendo to make as much money as possibel, and catering to the minority goes epxlicitly against that.
 
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Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
I just don't see why acting like we're in an official tournament is fun at parties. We're drunk and sitting in a basement, just let me pick up a baseball bat and wack somebody. Nobody wants to play Mario Kart without any items.

Maybe you should communicate with them you just kinda wanna play casually or , get some more friends who play casually. It happens with fighting games a lot.

I don't think players moved on because melee was too technical. I think they moved on because the new game had more characters, more stages, etc, etc and because, you know, it was the newest game. The same reason most newer games in a series get more play than the older games.

This, I think if he made a new game that played like melee people would be fine. Melee as it stands has less stuff and look way worse than the games that followed. That's what happens when a series continues
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,297
I mean let's be honest. The competitive Smash scene is like if you had competitive Charades. Can you make it competitive? Yes, but at the end of the day it's a party game that a bunch of kids stripped down to turn into a "fighter" and constantly try to tell people it's a legit part of the FGC. Then the creator comes every few years to remind people it's not a competitive fighting game and people get upset. I once had a guy I know get upset and threaten to fight me because I told him Sakurai said his game is not a fighting game. The guy said Sakurai is an idiot and doesn't know what he's talking about. When we've gotten to the point that people are literally ignoring what the creator of the game says to fit their devices, we've gone too far.
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
I call BS.

No one gave up on melee because it was too technical.

All Smash games have the same accessibility. In fact, the older friends are more noob friendly due to having less chaos all over the fucking screen.
 

MrConbon210

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,647
Maybe you should communicate with them you just kinda wanna play casually or , get some more friends who play casually. It happens with fighting games a lot.



This, I think if he made a new game that played like melee people would be fine. Melee as it stands has less stuff and look way worse than the games that followed. That's what happens when a series continues

Oh I do. Then they say stuff like, "this is how smash is intended to be played." And I generally sit out and watch them instead as I come to a party to have fun. Not worry about what tier the charecter I pick is.

I'm not saying competitive Smash is dumb. It has its place, however a Friday night party is not that place.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
I don't know what I want more: Melee on Gamecube VC or an Online Melee remake. The latter would be an experiment just to see how many would actually buy and play the game.
 

PensivePen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
392
Oh I do. Then they say stuff like, "this is how smash is intended to be played." And I generally sit out and watch them instead as I come to a party to have fun. Not worry about what tier the charecter I pick is.

I'm not saying competitive Smash is dumb. It has its place, however a Friday night party is not that place.
It just sounds like you and your friends don't enjoy the same type of gameplay from Smash.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
Oh I do. Then they say stuff like, "this is how smash is intended to be played." And I generally sit out and watch them instead as I come to a party to have fun. Not worry about what tier the charecter I pick is.

I'm not saying competitive Smash is dumb. It has its place, however a Friday night party is not that place.

That just sounds like you and your friends need to have like a talk. Or something
 

Charamiwa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,053
There's no disdain for the competitive scene. With Ultimate they added a flashy opening each match, score that updates in 1v1, hazard toggles, the ability to chose the stage before the characters... And of course, the Invitational.

Sakurai might not say he focuses on them, but he still does a lot to accomodate them.
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
I mean let's be honest. The competitive Smash scene is like if you had competitive Charades. Can you make it competitive? Yes, but at the end of the day it's a party game that a bunch of kids stripped down to turn into a "fighter" and constantly try to tell people it's a legit part of the FGC. Then the creator comes every few years to remind people it's not a competitive fighting game and people get upset. I once had a guy I know get upset and threaten to fight me because I told him Sakurai said his game is not a fighting game. The guy said Sakurai is an idiot and doesn't know what he's talking about. When we've gotten to the point that people are literally ignoring what the creator of the game says to fit their devices, we've gone too far.

Whether it's aimed at a casual or competitive audience doesn't change the freaking genre. Smash being a fighting game is not really up for debate

Now, what becomes ultimately competitive is not completely dictated by creators. Creators can help or sabotage, and Sakurai has been known to sabotage for now reason.

But you can't deny smash melee and 4 arwnta competitive. They are. And it has nothing to do with players forcing it to be. Depth and high skill ceilings, evolving meta, balance are what dictate competitiveness. And smash has had that in several incarnations.
 

SirFritz

Member
Jan 22, 2018
2,074
No kid playing melee back in the day gave up because it was "too technical". I didn't even know what wave dashing was until years later (and I've still never done one because I don't care). Casual players can appreciate it's gameplay compared to brawl or smash 4 too.
 

FrostyLemon

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,635
0fc.gif
 

Dark Cloud

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
61,087
Sakurai has made changes to Smash Ultimate for the competitive scene so I don't see why those people are mad. He may say this, but he still thinks of competitive Smash with the stages.
 

DaiJyoubs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
496
Sakurai isn't wrong. Cater to everyone first before catering to the .1%. That being said, he never really said he isn't catering to top level players, just that he isn't going to focus 100% on them. They are obviously a lot of design decisions in this one that are very much so competitive focused. Between the speed of the game, the changes in characters, and the overall presentation it's definitely more prominent competitively than previous entries.
 

FiXalaS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,569
Kuwait.
That is how it should be

focus too much on competitive players? bad idea. and tbat doesn't mean Ultimate will be bad on the competitive front or will be less skillful
 

MrConbon210

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,647
It just sounds like you and your friends don't enjoy the same type of gameplay from Smash.

That just sounds like you and your friends need to have like a talk. Or something

Well I'm not friends with these people anymore anyways :p

It would suck because we would have friends who weren't as into video games who wanted to play however other people were intent on making it as unfriendly to newcomers as possible so none of them had fun. That's why I say something it's like If peoplewould try to make Mario Kart a competitive thing. The items are a big part of Mario Kart and playing without them isn't as fun (not like you can anyways).
 

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,772
Alabama
Makes sense, Melee players are rooted, they aren't going to be moved at this point so why cater to a market that you know don't want to change. Cater to the majority.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,120
Limburg
This is fine in the context of the changes they've already made in 5mash to cater to serious players while making it accessible to the large audience it will likely garner on Switch. And we know Nintendo is adverse to pushing any products with health risks as seen in the 3DS launch and Wii warnings. Sakurai is playing it safe but will likely result in a pretty accessible game wit 70+ fighters. No small feat if accomplished
 

Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
[

because online means that you can't choose who you are gonna fight,so you can't cater to both at the same time

only solution would be to make a separate mode with different gameplay mechanics and exploits, but that would cost too much for the return and it would probably also divide the user base too much ebtween what we can call "melee-esque mode" "for glory" and "for fun"
 

Blackquill

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
783
People forget that Melee has little to no buffering making some moves or characters not fun to play at all
 

dang0

Member
Oct 28, 2017
244
Auckland, New Zealand
I agree with Sakurai. Going too far to make a game competitive can make it too intimidating for casuals.

The tendonitis comments a bit ironic considering Kid Icarus Uprising though.
 

Navid

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,018
"I think a lot of Melee players love Melee. But at the same time, I think a lot of players, on the other hand, gave up on Melee because it's too technical, because they can't keep up with it. And I know there were players who got tendinitis from playing, and messing with the controller so much … that really is hard on the player and I feel like a game should really focus on what the target audience is."
Don't know much about Melee but was the tendinitis really from the game being too technical and demanding or was the main culprit the insistence on using the gamecube controller instead of a fighting stick?
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
No but they might go online, curious, and be completely put off by the crazy techniques that bodies them. I think it's clear Sakurai wants less barriers to enjoy competitive play.
If someone goes through the hoops to play online to play Melee in 2018, they know exactly what they're getting into. If you're talking about Smash 4, that's exactly what For Fun/For Glory is for. Every competitive game in existence has casual modes and no one complains