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Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
It's the same for Ben Shapiro or Peterson.
You can talk a lot of shit, but hide it behind an air of sophistication and all of a sudden you've got a bunch of fuckbois claiming you're an intellectual.
I'm just surprised people didn't catch up to Harris' bullshit earlier, despite many people telling them that he is, in-fact a racist, bullshit peddling wanker.

I wouldn't equate Harris to those too.

Harris is actually correct and intelligent about a few things. It's his views on Muslims that are just plain incorrect and bigoted. It's weird.

Shapiro is just a talking point puppet. There is no substance anywhere.

Peterson is weird. Says shit that sounds insightful but it's just dumb.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
I wouldn't equate Harris to those too.

Harris is actually correct and intelligent about a few things. It's his views on Muslims that are just plain incorrect and bigoted. It's weird.

Shapiro is just a talking point puppet. There is no substance anywhere.

Peterson is weird. Says shit that sounds insightful but it's just dumb.
Perhaps. His views on torture, race, security and other things have me doubting his overall intelligence though.
 

SoH

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,733
Anytime anybody tries to sell me a very questionable ethical system that is "100% DERIVABLE FROM REAL SCIENCE" I think I begin to question their intelligence a teeeeeeeeensy bit
I've thoroughly reviewed the issue here using nothing but logic and reason, sans all emotion, and have found that the Muslims are the problem. If you have evidence to refute this present it and it better not involve the word racism. I am not interested in insults on my character. I'm a man of science.
 

teague

Member
Dec 17, 2018
1,509
I've thoroughly reviewed the issue here using nothing but logic and reason, sans all emotion, and have found that the Muslims are the problem. If you have evidence to refute this present it and it better not involve the word racism. I am not interested in insults on my character. I'm a man of science.


oh no I got DESTORYED BY FACTS&LOGIC
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
For those who haven't read it, a long piece abiut how Harris essentially bought his PhD.

https://rhizzone.net/articles/sam-harris-fraud/
Glad someone posted this. The fact that someone would even want a phd and not actually do research, teach, or use it in any capacity to which one would get a degree of that level in the first place is hilarious and tells you he only sought it to give him street cred (and even then its bullshit in the first place)
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
That's fair.
It's weird how seemingly smart people can be so dumb sometimes. I honestly don't understand.

Often people who are well versed in one field think that gives them the authority to speak on anything despite the fact they may be hateful morons. Harris and Peterson both fall into this category. They both read the first white supremacist publication on the development of IQ or history and they think they're experts on the topics; despite their only sources literally being discredited by all the credible scientists and historians in the relevant fields.

The question is why they're choosing to read discredited white supremacist in the first place and none of the actually valid data on the topics whilst also refuting it.

They're bigoted grifters
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,206
For those interested Current Affairs had a pretty great piece on how Sam Harris is the epitome of "Just Asking Questions":
Each time Harris said something about Islam that created outrage, he had a defense prepared. When he wondered why anybody would want any more "fucking Muslims," he was merely playing "Devil's advocate." When he said that airport security should profile "Muslims, or anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim, and we should be honest about it," he was simply demanding acknowledgment that a 22-year old Syrian man was objectively more likely to engage in terrorism than a 90-year-old Iowan grandmother. (Harris also said that he wasn't advocating that only Muslims should be profiled, and that people with his own demographic characteristics should also be given extra scrutiny.) And when he suggested that if an avowedly suicidal Islamist government achieved long-range nuclear weapons capability, "the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own," he was simply referring to a hypothetical situation and not in any way suggesting nuking the cities of actually-existing Muslims.[6]

It's not necessary to use "Islamophobia" or the r-word in order to conclude that Harris was doing something both disturbing and irrational here. As James Croft of Patheos noted, Harris would follow a common pattern when talking about Islam: (1) Say something that sounds deeply extreme and bigoted. (2) Carefully build in a qualification that makes it possible to deny that the statement is literally bigoted. (3) When audiences react with predictable horror, point to the qualification in order to insist the audience must be stupid and irrational. How can you be upset with him for merely playing Devil's Advocate? How can you be upset with him for advocating profiling, when he also said that he himself should be profiled? How can you object, unless your "tolerance" is downright pathological, to the idea that it would be legitimate to destroy a country that was bent on destroying yours?

In Croft's words, Harris "says things which, if approached with strict analytical rigor and the most generous of minds, can be given a shield of deniability against criticisms of Islamophobia," but "rarely takes sufficient care to ensure that his arguments don't casually reinforce negative attitudes about Muslims, and makes it extremely easy for right wing extremists to laud his remarks and for his right wing supporters to see the Islamophobia they want to see in them."[7] This is too generous a characterization, though, because it grants that "strict analytical rigor" produces results that favor Harris.

Also who can forget him constantly showing his ass in his back and forth with Ezra Klein:
 

Dragon's Game

Alt account
Banned
Apr 1, 2019
1,624
Probably because 80% of his public output after 9/11 was clash of civilizations bullshit. Did he ever talk about socialism or anti-Imperialism from 2000 until his death? There was also the very cool time he said women can't be funny. It's not a stretch to posit that if he were alive today he'd be mostly railing about the Islamization of Europe and bitching about SJWs.
lets not pretend there hasn't been elements of left has been hesitant in the pass to call out Islamic Jihadism or radicalism or to justify it and excuse it in some capacity. See the response to the Danish Cartoons, or the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, or Charlie Hebdo.

Hitchens too me is someone I admire over so called leftists like Glenn Greenwald, George Galloway who i would specify as mainly "Anti American" and "Anti Western Liberals" who will be sympathetic to murderous or tyrannical regimes if "hey they are against the United States" even Chomsky has done this
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,206
lets not pretend there hasn't been elements of left has been hesitant in the pass to call out Islamic Jihadism or radicalism or to justify it and excuse it in some capacity. See the response to the Danish Cartoons, or the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, or Charlie Hebdo.

Hitchens too me is someone I admire over so called leftists like Glenn Greenwald, George Galloway who i would specify as mainly "Anti American" and "Anti Western Liberals" who will be sympathetic to murderous or tyrannical regimes if "hey they are against the United States" even Chomsky has done this
The Left called all of those situations outright heinous and awful.

What they didn't do was blame it on the average Muslim or Islam.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,914
His books on secular morality are interesting and he became popular because of that. His problematic political/bigoted views didn't become clear till later.
I haven't exactly dedicated days to study Harris, simply because he's literally not an expert in most of the fields he writes about, but isn't his argument in favor of torture is almost decade old at this point? Profiling and "with good intention it's ok to drop a nuke on someones head" are relatively new developments though, so I can see why he was able to get away with this shit for so long.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
lets not pretend there hasn't been elements of left has been hesitant in the pass to call out Islamic Jihadism or radicalism or to justify it and excuse it in some capacity. See the response to the Danish Cartoons, or the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, or Charlie Hebdo.

Hitchens too me is someone I admire over so called leftists like Glenn Greenwald, George Galloway who i would specify as mainly "Anti American" and "Anti Western Liberals" who will be sympathetic to murderous or tyrannical regimes if "hey they are against the United States" even Chomsky has done this

Ok, but just acknowledge that your argument has changed from "Hitchens didn't shift right" to "He shifted right, but he was correct to do so."
 

Dragon's Game

Alt account
Banned
Apr 1, 2019
1,624
Ranting about boogeyman Muslims and supporting a disastrous imperialist war to kill a bunch of them certainly qualifies. As does "bitches ain't shit."
he didn't rant about "boogeyman" muslims. he rallied against islamic jihadism. He rallied against al-qaeda or islamic regimes. and he hated that many on the left made excuses for it

do you think one shouldn't criticize radical islam?
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
Did he flip on the use of torture as well? Or was that just harris?

No, to his credit, he got waterboarded and concluded it was torture.

he didn't rant about "boogeyman" muslims. he rallied against islamic jihadism. He rallied against al-qaeda or islamic regimes. and he hated that many on the left made excuses for it

do you think one shouldn't criticize radical islam?

Do you think one should kill 100,000 noncombatants just because? Do you think women are incapable of being funny?
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
I wouldn't equate Harris to those too.

Harris is actually correct and intelligent about a few things. It's his views on Muslims that are just plain incorrect and bigoted. It's weird.

Shapiro is just a talking point puppet. There is no substance anywhere.

Peterson is weird. Says shit that sounds insightful but it's just dumb.
what things is this dude correct on?
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
I'll post a video of what I been trying to get across. Hitchens explains himself why he left the Nation and what he saw as a "Masochistic" element within the left that he saw and opposed post 9/11

rather you agree or disagree with it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ciPb8H5PsQ

Thanks, but I read his "Taking Sides" piece in the nation when he wrote it.

Why are you ignoring his support for the Iraq war and his beliefs about women?
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Imagine defending these clowns in 2019

Imagine
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
User Banned (3 Days) - Inflammatory Generalizations over a series of posts
what things is this dude correct on?
his trump takedowns and defense of hillary made me like him, and this was after the infamous row with ben affleck.

the comments about muslims being rapists though. thats just fucked up. i think what happened in cologne was disgusting and embarrassing for all muslims, but the whole assaulting women in public culture seems to be a north african thing. (i think the world got their first taste of that when lara logan got sexually assaulted during the egypt arab spring, i dont think anyone knew that was a thing before that)

the vast majority of muslims live in arab and south asian countries and dont go around sexually assaulting women on new year's eves. and thats what he fails to realize, he is looking at cultural societal issues and appropriating them to religion. it would be like blaming all christians for uganda beheading homosexuals.

aside from that blindspot, i find him very enjoyable to listen to and im muslim. sometimes you just gotta accept the fact that the person has their own prejudices.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
his trump takedowns and defense of hillary made me like him, and this was after the infamous row with ben affleck.
That's the literal bare minimum. A lot of his Trump critiques is undercut by his stanning for neo-con policies. Like I'm pretty sure past statements and attitudes to this day would indicate he's a fan of shit like the Muslim ban
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
That's the literal bare minimum. A lot of his Trump critiques is undercut by his stanning for neo-con policies. Like I'm pretty sure past statements and attitudes to this day would indicate he's a fan of shit like the Muslim ban
im pretty sure ive heard him come out against Trump's muslim ban several times.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,804
Canada
I wouldn't equate Harris to those too.

Harris is actually correct and intelligent about a few things. It's his views on Muslims that are just plain incorrect and bigoted. It's weird.

Shapiro is just a talking point puppet. There is no substance anywhere.

Peterson is weird. Says shit that sounds insightful but it's just dumb.

No one in Academia takes Harris seriously, he's just a pop "intellectual" but without the serious and important research cred like other popular, mainstream intellectuals like Chomsky and Zizek. Heck, even his fellow "new atheist" Daniel Dennet has much to criticize about Harris.
 

MilesQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,490
"I can't believe some of these fathers weren't killing Pakistani men in the streets"

In reference to the terrible grooming throughout the UK.
his trump takedowns and defense of hillary made me like him, and this was after the infamous row with ben affleck.

the comments about muslims being rapists though. thats just fucked up. i think what happened in cologne was disgusting and embarrassing for all muslims, but the whole assaulting women in public culture seems to be a north african thing. (i think the world got their first taste of that when lara logan got sexually assaulted during the egypt arab spring, i dont think anyone knew that was a thing before that)

the vast majority of muslims live in arab and south asian countries and dont go around sexually assaulting women on new year's eves. and thats what he fails to realize, he is looking at cultural societal issues and appropriating them to religion. it would be like blaming all christians for uganda beheading homosexuals.

aside from that blindspot, i find him very enjoyable to listen to and im muslim. sometimes you just gotta accept the fact that the person has their own prejudices.


In the interview, he also talks about how fathers of those who were raped by gangs in the UK and why they didn't take to the streets and murder Pakistani men.

He's advocating murder aka Ljam Neeson justice against innocent brown coloured men, but it's just a prejudice right?

Easy to ignore.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,914
sometimes you just gotta accept the fact that the person has their own prejudices.
I mean, there's prejudice and then there's arguing in favour of torture, racial profiling and pre-emptive nuclear strikes. As far as I can tell Harris has no qualms about being (an unwilling?) mouthpiece for the alt-right and much of his forays into geopolitical issues have the smell of good old imperialism to them.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
"I can't believe some of these fathers weren't killing Pakistani men in the streets"

In reference to the terrible grooming throughout the UK.



In the interview, he also talks about how fathers of those who were raped by gangs in the UK and why they didn't take to the streets and murder Pakistani men.

He's advocating murder aka Ljam Neeson justice against innocent brown coloured men, but it's just a prejudice right?

Easy to ignore.
i didnt know he said that. thats fucked up.
 

ASilentProtagonist

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,849
It's been clear to me for years that Harris has a deep, deep hatred of not just Islam, but Muslims as well. Here he is downplaying, and outright denying history. Basically saying Muslims have done no good, and their accomplishments are "exaggerated"

It is historical fact that not only did the Muslims save science, and intellectualism. They are also the founders of the modern science we know today. Most of the scripts that Europeans used in their research for centuries after were translated from Persian, and Arabic.
 

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,648
Sam Harris is Islamophobic and more and more it's apparently that these "free thinkers" are irrationally anti-Muslim.

Be anti-Islam, there's absolutely no harm in being against any religion and dismantling it logically, but once you attack people and not ideology, you've lost.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
his trump takedowns and defense of hillary made me like him, and this was after the infamous row with ben affleck.

the comments about muslims being rapists though. thats just fucked up. i think what happened in cologne was disgusting and embarrassing for all muslims, but the whole assaulting women in public culture seems to be a north african thing. (i think the world got their first taste of that when lara logan got sexually assaulted during the egypt arab spring, i dont think anyone knew that was a thing before that)

the vast majority of muslims live in arab and south asian countries and dont go around sexually assaulting women on new year's eves. and thats what he fails to realize, he is looking at cultural societal issues and appropriating them to religion. it would be like blaming all christians for uganda beheading homosexuals.

aside from that blindspot, i find him very enjoyable to listen to and im muslim. sometimes you just gotta accept the fact that the person has their own prejudices.
Why would it be embarrassing for all of us? You know how many of us there are?
Fuck that noise. We don't have to apologise for shit we aren't apart of. We aren't responsible for every dickhead acting like animals.
If you can carry on listening to Sam Harris after all of this then I don't know what to say, but that's fucked up. Seriously.
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
No one in Academia takes Harris seriously, he's just a pop "intellectual" but without the serious and important research cred like other popular, mainstream intellectuals like Chomsky and Zizek. Heck, even his fellow "new atheist" Daniel Dennet has much to criticize about Harris.

That's fair. I don't know how important it good his neuroscience work is viewed by his peers in neuroscience. Dennet is a philosopher, so he might criticize Harris s points on philosophy.
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
what things is this dude correct on?

Existence of deities.
Morality not tied to dieties.
(Basic things that should be obvious to most)

I don't know how his neuroscience work is perceived in his field. Unlike say Dawkins who had an extensive research career before going mainstream, it seems that Harris moved into the mainstream soon after his phd work.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
Existence of deities.
Morality not tied to dieties.
(Basic things that should be obvious to most)

I don't know how his neuroscience work is perceived in his field. Unlike say Dawkins who had an extensive research career before going mainstream, it seems that Harris moved into the mainstream soon after his phd work.
Neither of those things seem insightful and novel enough to grant this dude credit for on the basis of "being correct on".
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,955
The side discussion around whether Hitchins would have followed down this path along with Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and others, is interesting. Hitchens is far more ideologically complex than Harris, who was always a philosophical lightweight compared to Hitchens (and really, who isn't?). Hitchens was a "classical liberal" before "classical liberal" just meant you wrote for the National Review and were afraid of the word "neoconservative." Despite always kind of being a religious apologist (and, while an atheist, I still am), I admired Hitchens and enjoyed his writing, even on religion.

Hitchens dying younger than he should of was sad, especially how he went, but ... and this is so selfish to say ... I'm almost relieved he didn't live long enough to have his own YouTube channel and podcast.

Isn't Sam Harris a champion of progressives? Bill Maher always advertise himself as champion of liberalism but I see questionable stuff from him towards Muslims all the time.

Used to be, but not in a long time. His criticism of religion was always marred by unfair, nasty arguments, but it was at a time when he was primarily arguing against Christian evangalism.
 
Oct 28, 2017
43
So I used to like Sam Harris when I was younger and more sheltered, but I think like most people here I went down the path of critical thinking instead of deluding myself into thinking my biases are the "good" or morally correct ones. I only liked a couple of his lectures on free will and neuroscience, so I wanted to see what Lawrence Krauss thought of him now. I always liked his books and lectures. It turns out he had some sexual assault scandals, and the articles I read made the similar comparison to Richard Feyman as being a known misogynist, which I never heard before and who is actually one of my idols. Is there anyone left? Carl Sagan maybe? I always loved Feynman's lectures and biographies, he was such a curious and interesting person. I guess you really shouldn't put anyone on a pedestal.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
The side discussion around whether Hitchins would have followed down this path along with Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and others, is interesting. Hitchens is far more ideologically complex than Harris, who was always a philosophical lightweight compared to Hitchens. Hitchens was a "classical liberal" before "classical liberal" just meant you wrote for the National Review and were afraid of the word "neoconservative." Despite always kind of being a religious apologist (and, while an atheist, I still am), I admired Hitchens and enjoyed his writing, even on religion.

Hitchens dying younger than he should of was sad, especially how he went, but ... and this is so selfish to say ... I'm almost relieved he didn't live long enough to have his own YouTube channel and podcast.



Used to be, but not in a long time. His criticism of religion was always marred by unfair, nasty arguments, but it was at a time when he was primarily arguing against Christian evangalism.

Hitchens was already saying things like below ages ago





If anything, out of all of them, Hitchens was the biggest anti-theist. People just like him more because he was the best spoken.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,955
Hitchens was already saying things like below ages ago



If anything, out of all of them, Hitchens was the biggest anti-theist. People just like him more because he was the best spoken.


Yeah, absolutely, Hitchens was an anti-theist, and he wore that badge proudly, as did other's who loved to trot out Hitchens' in debates about the value of religion (which I was almost always on the other side of Hitchens' barbs). But, like others, I wonder whether Hitchens would have fallen out of favor among left-leaning atheists, anti-theists, or what have you, like Harris has. Harris' fall from grace with progressive intellectuals has been pretty swift. Hitchens stepping back from public life, and then dying, pre-empted the same for him.

When I was in college (early 2000s), Hitchens was a hero of the anti-religious progressive left. Hitchens and Dawkins both were, with Sam Harris not really being as well known then. Hitchens' defense of the Iraq War was like anathema among that community at the time... it was like a quake.
 
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Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Yeah, absolutely, Hitchens was an anti-theist, and he wore that badge proudly, as did other's who loved to trot out Hitchens' in debates about the value of religion (which I was almost always on the other side of Hitchens' barbs). But, like others, I wonder whether Hitchens would have fallen out of favor among left-leaning atheists, anti-theists, or what have you, like Harris has. Harris' fall from grace with progressive intellectuals has been pretty swift. Hitchens stepping back from public life, and then dying, pre-empted the same for him.

Of course, he would have. Did you watch that video above? It's stating the same things you hear today that are critical of progressives being accused of tolerating intolerance in order to seem as if they are supporting a minority. With some free speech argumentation thrown in to be critical of State law which looks to criminalize being critical/offensive towards religion.

It's talking points of today that no matter the source they come from, immediately get categorized as being racist or Islamophobic. So, do you think Hitchens is Islamophobic above? I guess that's the question one needs to ask themselves. Seeing as the term "Islamophobia" was never at the height of use it is now, when Hitchens was alive. Although as he said in that video "You'll be told you can't complain, because you'll be Islamophobic. The term is already being introduced into the culture as if it was an accusation of race-hatred. Whereas its only the objections to a very extreme and absolutist religion".

And before you reaffirm a belief that Hitchens never fell off the wagon as much as Harris now has, as I said above the talking points Hitchens grapples with in that video are the same talking points a large collective of left-leaning atheists and progressives immediately believe are derogatory or against progressivism.

Just because Hitchens was funny and well-spoken shouldn't mean what he was saying has to be watered down to claim he was "one of the good ones".
 
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The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,955
Of course, he would have. Did you watch that video above? It's stating the same things you hear today that are critical of progressives being accused of tolerating intolerance in order to seem as if they are supporting a minority. With some free speech argumentation thrown in to be critical of State law which looks to criminalize being critical/offensive towards religion.

It's talking points of today that no matter the source they come from, immediately get categorized as being racist or Islamophobic. So, do you think Hitchens is Islamophobic above? I guess that's the question one needs to ask themselves. Seeing as the term "Islamophobia" was never at the height of use it is now, when Hitchens was alive.

And before you reaffirm a belief that Hitchens never fell off the wagon as much as Harris now has, as I said above the talking points Hitchens grapples with in that video are the same talking points a large collective of left-leaning atheists and progressives immediately believe are derogatory or against progressivism.

Oh, of course I believe Hitchens is Islamaphobic. Sorry, I don't know if I was clear in my posts, I always disagreed with Hitchens because I'm an apologist for organized religion, and when arguing with people on the internet or in debate clubs or whatever, Hitchens was always one of the most cutting. I agree with you, and yeah, you're probably right that Hitchens would have fallen out of reverence like how Harris has.

I think you might have missed my point or I misconstrued them, though, I wasn't defending Hitchens. Hitchens was probably my primary antagonist when it came to pointless religious debates ~15+ years ago. But Hitchens was in an exaulted position among leftist academic intellectuals 15-20 years ago, and I was idly musing whether he would have been considered like Harris is today as anti-progressive. You're probably right that he would have.