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Oct 26, 2017
8,206
Noah Berlatsky tore apart Haidt's book as it's basically regurgitating the usual old and already debunked talking points about free speech and college students:
The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure is, as you might expect from the title, a warning against coddling. It is also, somewhat contradictorily, a brief against direct action, and an argument for quietism. Greg Lukianoff, president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, and Jonathan Haidt, a professor at New York University's Stern School of Business, claim that they want young people to be less constrained by political correctness and more committed to free speech. From the book, though, it seems clear that the authors want students not to speak up, but to sit down and shut up—or, if they must speak, to speak decorously, in ways that won't actually challenge or change institutions.

The authors' central thesis is, as they acknowledge, a familiar generational complaint: They worry that kids today lack gumption and spine. Young people no longer walk uphill both ways to school; they just sit in their rooms staring at their iPhones and occasionally virtue-signaling. Today's generation is swaddled in a cult of "safetyism." Young people, Haidt and Lukianoff assert, believe that "what doesn't kill you makes you weaker. So avoid pain, avoid discomfort, avoid all potentially bad experiences." Kids fear adversity, when they should embrace it.

The Coddling of the American Mind may claim to stand for bold new ideas, but it does not challenge the standard media narratives around free speech on campus. Much of Lukianoff and Haidt's narrative is a revisiting of the campus free speech debates that have long been popular fodder for writers at venues like the New York Times, Reason, and The Atlantic (where the essay that became Coddling first appeared). The University of California–Berkeley protests against Milo Yiannopoulos; the Middlebury College protests against Charles Murray; the backlash to Yale University lecturer Erika Christakis' Halloween letter; the ordeal of Laura Kipnis—each narrative has been immortalized in a hundred op-eds, so the book almost starts to feel like a party game. Bret Weinstein—drink!

Also the book includes more Charles Murray white-washing:
There's certainly a good case that student protesters have overreached and done harm in some instances. In the melee as student protesters demonstrated against Murray, one student pulled the hair of the professor who was supposed to interview Murray, giving the professor a concussion. Whether that incident is an example of student excessive fearfulness is perhaps an open question. But it's certainly ugly.

Haidt and Lukianoff forthrightly and reasonably condemn this violent attack. But they are less forthright in describing Murray's views. The authors say that students protested against Murray because he proposed "that differences in average IQ scores found across racial groups may not be caused entirely by environmental factors; genetic differences may play a role too." That's a deliberately euphemistic way of saying that Murray has made extremely tendentious arguments that black people are less intelligent than white people using evidence that has been widely discredited.

By soft-pedaling Murray's views, Lukianoff and Haidt avoid some uncomfortable questions. They present Murray as a reasonable scholar, rather than as a man peddling discredited race science. We can agree that protesters should not have assaulted a professor. But is protest itself wrong in this case? Are the university, the community, and the country really enriched by yet another "debate" about whether black people are fully human? Vocal protest, short of violence, is supposed to be protected in the constitution too. How can the authors assess whether protest is justified if they don't accurately explain what's at stake?
 
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Oct 29, 2017
5,354
I am not against the existence of space spaces per say, I think the title of this thread has tainted the discussion as a typical anti safe space rant.

I am more concerned with teaching kids that they never have to have their ideas challenged, even outside of "safe spaces". That's all. And there may be no mental health issue at all related to this idea, I just think it is an interesting discussion.

Which safe spaces push forward the idea that children should never have their ideas challenged? I'm not aware of any.
 
Oct 25, 2017
99
NY
Pages of this thread are dedicated to people hit and running their latest brilliant hottake on Sam Harris without engaging the article or the podcast.

I don't see "Neener Neener roll call" in the title yet here you are. Engage the material or don't post, it's a discussion board not a pig pen. I suspect it'll be me who is censored not the two penny brigade.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
You are mis-characterizing the issue. This isn't about banning ideas in safe spaces or getting rid of safe spaces at all. It is about the general concept of having the right not to hear things that make you unconformable. And if someone says something that makes you unconformable they are attacking you or have malicious intent.

This very thread is an example. Some people are assuming I am trying to promote bigotry just be virtue of having this discussion. Why do people jump to malicious intent?
No one is jumping to any form of malicious intent. No one cares about your or Sam's intent. Intent is completely irrelevant, you can preach about your intent to your SO or close family members if it makes you feel better, no one else cares.

The problem is that harm is being done to real people by these sorts of actions. That's all. Fuck intent.

Pages of this thread are dedicated to people hit and running their latest brilliant hottake on Sam Harris without engaging the article or the podcast.

I don't see "Neener Neener roll call" in the title yet here you are. Engage the material or don't post, it's a discussion board not a pig pen. I suspect it'll be me who is censored not the two penny brigade.

What is there to discuss, honestly? Sam Harris argues at the level of a teenager and bends so far backwards to sort through his own cognitive dissonance each time he opens his mouth I'm genuinely shocked he hasn't snapped his spine yet.

I don't understand these threads.

"This is a very important discussion that we should have but I won't say anything about the topic myself. Go read/watch/listen to this other thing that someone else said."

The discussion is important. Sam Harris' childish opinion on it isn't.

Edit: Might have misread your post.

+ I think Harris is biased and often wrong but he is very good at providing thought experiments that force you to be much more careful about defending your opinions.

Lol, really? I can think of hundreds of people better suited for that exercise.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
8,206
Pages of this thread are dedicated to people hit and running their latest brilliant hottake on Sam Harris without engaging the article or the podcast.

I don't see "Neener Neener roll call" in the title yet here you are. Engage the material or don't post, it's a discussion board not a pig pen. I suspect it'll be me who is censored not the two penny brigade.
Maybe read the last two to three pages where there is an actual conversation happening between people instead of making false generalization and acting like a martyr before anything's even happened.
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,354
Pages of this thread are dedicated to people hit and running their latest brilliant hottake on Sam Harris without engaging the article or the podcast.

I don't see "Neener Neener roll call" in the title yet here you are. Engage the material or don't post, it's a discussion board not a pig pen. I suspect it'll be me who is censored not the two penny brigade.

So instead of "engaging the material", you choose to not do that either and instead go on a whinefest and preemptively complain about a warning/ban that you haven't even gotten yet. But please continue lecturing everyone on what constitutes proper forum etiquette.
 

Book One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,819
It's fair to not want to bother with Harris based on previous experience, and the posters who just say "Harris, pass" make sense. But it's weird to come into the thread and post responses to points made in general about safe spaces by other parties when the interview/article are really talking about a different phenomenon. Of course, you could claim it is dogwhistling (is that the term?) and using university firings/mental illness as a more approachable way to talk about actually wanting to propagate hate speech. But nobody in that thread has made that argument, they've mainly been responding to a fictional demand (in the context of this interview/article) to remove safe spaces to the benefit of hate speech.

*edit* I've mainly been trying to state points from the interviewee for the benefit of those who didn't read, but since I'm getting engaged it's probably important to state my own perspective:

+ I am pro safe spaces, including exclusionary ones in many contexts
+ I do think that university professors have been pressured into resigning for willfully misrepresented speech (probably moreso by right wing students).
+ I am pro hate speech laws
+ I think Harris is biased and often wrong but he is very good at providing thought experiments that force you to be much more careful about defending your opinions. And I do think he is willfully misread as well on occasion.

dressing up the safe spaces 'critique' idea in a different costume doesn't change what it is. There's a reason Harris is trotting this book out.

The trap is always the same, making some people think he is being 'willfully misread' or 'providing good though experiments' when in reality it's just more window dressing.


Sure and maybe if it had just been Jonathan Haidt maybe people would be willing to discuss it more, but why even bother making an appearance in here? Like is it some sort of self important pronouncement? It just frankly seems like shitposting.

I mean, it's a thread about Harris' podcast and a subject that's been well worn and understood for the intellectual dishonesty that drives it. People simply stating their disdain for that and the man himself shouldn't be a surprise.
 

filkry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,892
dressing up the safe spaces 'critique' idea in a different costume doesn't change what it is. There's a reason Harris is trotting this book out.

The trap is always the same, making some people think he is being 'willfully misread' or 'providing good though experiments' when in reality it's just more window dressing.

Like I said, I think the dogwhistling argument is perfectly valid, just that I didn't see (perhaps ignored?) people actually making it in this thread.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
Like I said, I think the dogwhistling argument is perfectly valid, just that I didn't see (perhaps ignored?) people actually making it in this thread.
Because it has already been thoroughly debunked and no one is interested in repeating the same shit over and over again just to entertain concern trolls.

The only people complaining about safe spaces are Koch-funded alt reich personalities cashing in huge checks via their platforms. Literally no one else has a problem with them, so why even bother discussing it? The entire point is raised in bad faith and we already know what normal people who aren't lying to your face think on the matter. You being one of them. Is there really a need to sit here and nod our heads in agreement on completely basic shit like "hey maybe don't threaten university professors merely because they know what socialism is"?
 

JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,343
Noah Berlatsky tore apart Haidt's book as it's basically regurgitating the usual old and already debunked talking points about free speech and college students:


Also the book includes more Charles Murray white-washing:
Haidt and Lukianoff forthrightly and reasonably condemn this violent attack. But they are less forthright in describing Murray's views. The authors say that students protested against Murray because he proposed "that differences in average IQ scores found across racial groups may not be caused entirely by environmental factors; genetic differences may play a role too." That's a deliberately euphemistic way of saying that Murray has made extremely tendentious arguments that black people are less intelligent than white people using evidence that has been widely discredited.

By soft-pedaling Murray's views, Lukianoff and Haidt avoid some uncomfortable questions. They present Murray as a reasonable scholar, rather than as a man peddling discredited race science. We can agree that protesters should not have assaulted a professor. But is protest itself wrong in this case? Are the university, the community, and the country really enriched by yet another "debate" about whether black people are fully human? Vocal protest, short of violence, is supposed to be protected in the constitution too. How can the authors assess whether protest is justified if they don't accurately explain what's at stake?
Lukianoff and Haidt talk a good bit about cognitive bias, repeatedly urging students not to trust their feelings, and to be aware of their presuppositions and sympathies. The authors carefully delineate their own political positions on the center left. But they don't appear to consider how their age and professions might influence their analysis. The authors are both older men who lecture at colleges; their student days are behind them. They are therefore more inclined (and certainly more incentivized) to identify with professors, and have trouble seeing the courage, resilience, and intellectual daring of students.

A good example of this bias appears toward the end of the book, when the authors approvingly quote the University of Chicago's Zimmer. "How are high schools doing in preparing students to be students in a college of open discourse and free argumentation?" Zimmer asks rhetorically. His answer is, "not well." Zimmer positions himself and the university that he leads as champions for free speech and intellectualism, dragging those barbarous, closed-minded students through the gate of knowledge.

Zimmer's self-presentation does not accurately capture his relationship with students, though, nor his relationship with free speech. Starting in 2010, student and community activists staged a lengthy campaign to try to get the University of Chicago to install a trauma center at the university hospital. Gun violence on Chicago's South Side was and remains a crisis, and when a Level 1 trauma facility closed in 1991, shooting victims often had to travel 10 miles to reach a treatment facility.

At one point, nine protesters, including one student, occupied the University of Chicago hospital demanding to speak with Zimmer. Instead of engaging in a free-spirited, open debate, Zimmer ducked the meeting, and the protesters were arrested.

Community activists, working with non-profits and students, had to fight against university indifference and stonewalling for five years before they were finally successful in forcing the university to open a trauma center. In the proper telling of this story, Zimmer does not come across as a free-speech hero boldly countenancing debate. Instead, he was a reactionary foot-dragger, refusing to hold discussions or acknowledge community needs until direct action and a rolling public relations disaster forced his hand.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
What's amusing it's that the exact same propaganda conservatives have been crafting for 4 decades now. I can post shit written in the early 90s of rants that you could literally copy paste today and nobody would be the wiser.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
As a cis white hetero male myself, I always cringe when we tell others that they don't need safe spaces; like yeah, when we're the most advantaged group of course we're going to think they're not necessary, but that's why it should not be up to us to decide.
 

obeast

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
559
As a fan of Haidt (The Righteous Mind changed the way I looked at morality and politics), I'll just stop by to note that it's ironic how many of the responses to this podcast are examples of what he calls (in The Coddling of the American Mind, the book discussed in the podcast) the "Third Great Untruth": "Life is battle between good people and evil people."

Edit - For what it's worth, you may want to edit the title, which makes it seem like the subject of the podcast is safe spaces. Most posters aren't going to listen to the podcast -- it's a huge time investment -- and although safe spaces are arguably part of the overall issue Haidt and his coauthor describe, they're barely mentioned, if at all, in the actual discussion in question.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Pages of this thread are dedicated to people hit and running their latest brilliant hottake on Sam Harris without engaging the article or the podcast.

I don't see "Neener Neener roll call" in the title yet here you are. Engage the material or don't post, it's a discussion board not a pig pen. I suspect it'll be me who is censored not the two penny brigade.
PHdFLSg.gif
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,277
Pages of this thread are dedicated to people hit and running their latest brilliant hottake on Sam Harris without engaging the article or the podcast.

I don't see "Neener Neener roll call" in the title yet here you are. Engage the material or don't post, it's a discussion board not a pig pen. I suspect it'll be me who is censored not the two penny brigade.

Pretty telling how this post is not engaging with the material.
 

filkry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,892
Because it has already been thoroughly debunked and no one is interested in repeating the same shit over and over again just to entertain concern trolls.

I guess I imagine someone who is coming to this thread and this is their first exposure to interviewee's ideas. I think it's useful for them to have an accurate description of those ideas, as opposed to some different, related ideas. I think it's useful for them to be informed that Harris is a controversial figure and that they should approach his interview choices with skepticism. And then, for those who have the patience and knowledge to provide it, it's useful to have a careful counterpoint to those specific ideas. This one seems like a good start:

Noah Berlatsky tore apart Haidt's book as it's basically regurgitating the usual old and already debunked talking points about free speech and college students

I wish it dealt more with the mental health aspect, so maybe someone knows a source that could argue that side of the point?

Ultimately it's a discussion board and I don't think anything other than totally valid discussion has been had here. I just don't know why you'd want to talk about those different, related ideas. It seems counter-productive to me. When I was about 19, if I came into a thread like this and listened to the interview, then read a rebuttal of what seems like a different argument (that safe spaces should be banned and people should be exposed to hate speech), I would definitely gut react to implicitly trust the interview because the "other side" didn't respond to the same points. It's totally wrong, but people encountering ideas for the first time are impressionable, especially the young and idealistic (in either direction).

It's the responsibility of the reader to come to the right conclusions by seeking information, and not the responsibility of anyone in this thread to carefully nurture the misguided to the right place. Maybe it's just my own experience having gone through a lot of belief systems over time that makes me think we should do our best to short circuit that process when we can. I'm really sorry if this comes across as saying what you should or should not say, I'm really just waxing a bit emotionally on how mislead it's possible to be from certain patterns and wishing it weren't so.
 
Oct 25, 2017
99
NY
Pretty telling how this post is not engaging with the material.

Podcast is an hour and thirty minutes. It'll take a while. Doesn't invalidate the stream of hit and runners. Yes there is one "conversation" going on.

"The only people complaining about safe spaces are Koch-funded alt reich personalities cashing in huge checks via their platforms. Literally no one else has a problem with them"

Can't wait to handle these opinions, Tyrant.

You are now 2 for 2!

You have four posts in this thread. Each one is you barking with no content. Try not to call out irony when you suffer from it yourself.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
8,277
Podcast is an hour and thirty minutes. It'll take a while. Doesn't invalidate the stream of hit and runners. Yes there is one "conversation" going on.

"The only people complaining about safe spaces are Koch-funded alt reich personalities cashing in huge checks via their platforms. Literally no one else has a problem with them"

Can't wait to handle these opinions, Tyrant.

You are now 2 for 2!
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
I guess I imagine someone who is coming to this thread and this is their first exposure to interviewee's ideas. I think it's useful for them to have an accurate description of those ideas, as opposed to some different, related ideas. I think it's useful for them to be informed that Harris is a controversial figure and that they should approach his interview choices with skepticism. And then, for those who have the patience, it's useful to have a careful counterpoint to those specific ideas.

That's all well and good but consider this; the only thing going on at this thread at this point is people informing others about Harris being a steaming turd of a public figure. There is a reason that is more or less the only thing going on in this thread (Sorry Blargh, I do appreciate you legitimately informing people of course, cheers!) If OP (and they know this) created the exact same thread but without mentioning Sam Harris or anyone of that ilk, this thread would have gotten maybe 5 replies and instantly died a necrothread death. The discussion about free speech vs safe spaces simply isn't very interesting at all. It's manufactured outrage by disingenuous actors like Harris et al.

It is important to address those "different arguments" because that is what is being dog whistled and needs to be exposed. Anyone unwittingly listening to this interview and exploring further will inevitably come across those exact arguments real quick, because that is what these people are really trying to sell you. Pre-emptively debunking those arguments is important and someone not interested in engaging with real science disproving Harris' claims probably wasn't genuinely interested in the debate to begin with. Which, back to my previous point, makes sense because what even is this debate? Who gives a shit about people literally organizing moderated debates lmao. That is pretty much the entire foundation of society why is this even a thing ok I know why it's a thing but jesuschristcouldpeoplegrowatleasthalfabrainofcriticalthinkingandnotgetsweptupinthistypeofmanipulativepropagandaaaaaaaaaaargh~

Podcast is an hour and thirty minutes. It'll take a while. Doesn't invalidate the stream of hit and runners. Yes there is one "conversation" going on.

"The only people complaining about safe spaces are Koch-funded alt reich personalities cashing in huge checks via their platforms. Literally no one else has a problem with them"

Can't wait to handle these opinions, Tyrant.

Good luck.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,805
Wasn't there a study about how the hardest hit with appearance cancellations in colleges were lefties or something?
Then again when the most public examples are from harassers like Milo...

e: the topic about freedom of speech vs safe space seems stupid on its head.
Freedom of speech doesn't mean people have to listen to you or that you HAVE to invade private spaces or some shit.
Like seriously I don't see people complaining about Fox News being a space without free speech because it lacks someone evangelizing Marx theory for 4 hours every week.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,325
Not his fault you cant parse what hes trying to say. That wasnt even his point lol.

You know those tests in school where you read a story and it asks what was the main takeaway? I always thought those were pitifully easy but I'm starting to see why they are needed.

So your idea of defending him is just to proclaim "out of context" and "you're too stupid to understand him."

Compelling
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
I teach rhetoric. You know who doesn't want to have their ideas challenged? Students who want to cite the Bible and who don't want to hear that it's not a strong, objective source. I've been teaching at the college level for seven years, and these are about the only students I've encountered who do not want to be challenged about something they strongly believe, because students who are religious enough to want to use the Bible as evidence for an argument have been taught from birth not to challenge it as the source. And believe me, I have challenged a lot of students over these years. I have had students who held beliefs across the political spectrum, but the vast majority were happy to listen and consider; that's what the classroom is for. But I teach from a perspective of not bringing in gory or shocking or violent material for the sake of it, too. Doesn't mean we don't discuss the world as it is; just means I don't try to "shock" my students for "reasons." They don't need to be forced into thinking.

There's a lot of alarmist positions about students and how they're coddled. Most of them, in my experience, are wrong. There are plenty of problems with American universities, but the idea of safe spaces, brave spaces, etc. hasn't been one of them that I've seen.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
I teach rhetoric. You know who doesn't want to have their ideas challenged? Students who want to cite the Bible and who don't want to hear that it's not a strong, objective source. I've been teaching at the college level for seven years, and these are about the only students I've encountered who do not want to be challenged about something they strongly believe, because students who are religious enough to want to use the Bible as evidence for an argument have been taught from birth not to challenge it as the source. And believe me, I have challenged a lot of students over these years. I have had students who held beliefs across the political spectrum, but the vast majority were happy to listen and consider; that's what the classroom is for. But I teach from a perspective of not bringing in gory or shocking or violent material for the sake of it, too. Doesn't mean we don't discuss the world as it is; just means I don't try to "shock" my students for "reasons." They don't need to be forced into thinking.

There's a lot of alarmist positions about students and how they're coddled. Most of them, in my experience, are wrong. There are plenty of problems with American universities, but the idea of safe spaces, brave spaces, etc. hasn't been one of them that I've seen.
No but you see if I can't come there and sieg heil with my swastika bandana and yell that all immigrants must die how could your students possibly learn anything of value?

(/s, duh)
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
Funny how people demonize safe spaces in college campuses. I spent a decade in 3 college campuses in 2 continents between my BsC to my PhD and just finished last year, so its not like I'm too old to have experienced the media push. The amount of "safe spaces" present was minuscule and mostly present in clubs and meetings that dealt with touchy subjects like race, suicide, prejudice, etc. No class I ever took had a "safe space" and young students were never taught that their opinions mattered just because they had them, just the opposite. All through my experience in college you had to justify and be able to think through every statement you said, always understanding that professors and other students will jump to criticize you.

This often lead to my favorite college interaction where a freshman, straight, white edgelord would come into a class to "trigger" the other people assuming it was a safe space, just to have the professor and the other students that were actually engaging the subject shut down every flimsy argument he made until he looked like a newborn deer in the headlights.

I teach rhetoric. You know who doesn't want to have their ideas challenged? Students who want to cite the Bible and who don't want to hear that it's not a strong, objective source. I've been teaching at the college level for seven years, and these are about the only students I've encountered who do not want to be challenged about something they strongly believe, because students who are religious enough to want to use the Bible as evidence for an argument have been taught from birth not to challenge it as the source. And believe me, I have challenged a lot of students over these years. I have had students who held beliefs across the political spectrum, but the vast majority were happy to listen and consider; that's what the classroom is for. But I teach from a perspective of not bringing in gory or shocking or violent material for the sake of it, too. Doesn't mean we don't discuss the world as it is; just means I don't try to "shock" my students for "reasons." They don't need to be forced into thinking.

There's a lot of alarmist positions about students and how they're coddled. Most of them, in my experience, are wrong. There are plenty of problems with American universities, but the idea of safe spaces, brave spaces, etc. hasn't been one of them that I've seen.

Thank you for this. I just finished writing the exact same thing from a different perspective. The boogeyman-ing of the american college is a propaganda operation by the right, nothing more.
 

Aang's_Bae

Member
Apr 23, 2018
275
Sure and maybe if it had just been Jonathan Haidt maybe people would be willing to discuss it more, but why even bother making an appearance in here? Like is it some sort of self important pronouncement? It just frankly seems like shitposting.
So you need a safe space to talk about this? Why are you avoiding opposing views?
 

Thurston Last

Banned
Jul 26, 2018
1,350
I teach rhetoric. You know who doesn't want to have their ideas challenged? Students who want to cite the Bible and who don't want to hear that it's not a strong, objective source. I've been teaching at the college level for seven years, and these are about the only students I've encountered who do not want to be challenged about something they strongly believe, because students who are religious enough to want to use the Bible as evidence for an argument have been taught from birth not to challenge it as the source. And believe me, I have challenged a lot of students over these years. I have had students who held beliefs across the political spectrum, but the vast majority were happy to listen and consider; that's what the classroom is for. But I teach from a perspective of not bringing in gory or shocking or violent material for the sake of it, too. Doesn't mean we don't discuss the world as it is; just means I don't try to "shock" my students for "reasons." They don't need to be forced into thinking.

There's a lot of alarmist positions about students and how they're coddled. Most of them, in my experience, are wrong. There are plenty of problems with American universities, but the idea of safe spaces, brave spaces, etc. hasn't been one of them that I've seen.

Thanks for sharing this. I admittedly have not been in a college environment for some time, so maybe I'm falling prey to alarmist reporting that isn't representative of most students.
 

Aang's_Bae

Member
Apr 23, 2018
275
Pages of this thread are dedicated to people hit and running their latest brilliant hottake on Sam Harris without engaging the article or the podcast.

I don't see "Neener Neener roll call" in the title yet here you are. Engage the material or don't post, it's a discussion board not a pig pen. I suspect it'll be me who is censored not the two penny brigade.
This place isn't a safe space. For what read should our views be censored?
 

Deleted member 2620

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
There are some issues of free speech on campus that do need to be addressed, for instance, criticism of Israel have lead to professors being fired and students being punished.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-spee...st-attack-free-speech-israel-palestine-debate

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/...sors-angry-tweets-on-gaza-cost-him-a-job.html

https://www.thenation.com/article/w...tion-because-of-their-pro-palestine-politics/

For anyone that listened, were these things talked about?

echoing this

(I definitely would assume they were not)
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,805
This place isn't a safe space. For what read should our views be censored?
It is literally this
No but you see if I can't come there and sieg heil with my swastika bandana and yell that all immigrants must die how could your students possibly learn anything of value?

(/s, duh)
.

That's why I always have a problem with the american right, shit like that point to them being either disingeneous assholes or complete utter morons and I'm not even sure which one is the more charitable view.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
No but you see if I can't come there and sieg heil with my swastika bandana and yell that all immigrants must die how could your students possibly learn anything of value?

(/s, duh)
Joking aside, my university has been one of the ones hit hard with extremist flyers, graffiti, etc. over the last few years. It's been bad at times. And we have an administration more concerned with optics than with our students, honestly. I am grateful at times that I'm in rhetoric so I can address it openly.

I will say my students figure out pretty early that I'm feminist researcher so maybe my very presence prevents some of them from trying to play edgelord in my class. But I've seen more cases of people listening and considering than anything else when I bring up testing culture and racism/classism, for instance, or intersectional issues with the development and testing of VR (all my students for a couple of years were in tech and were very fascinated with that, particularly).
 

obeast

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
559
echoing this

(I definitely would assume they were not)

I can't recall if they were discussed on the podcast (dismissals due to criticism of Israel, that is), but in the book and in other parts of his media tour Haidt absolutely is careful to emphasize that the issues he identifies are not restricted to the "left." Generally, he's against mob justice of any political flavor - e.g., on the podcast he discusses the Sarah Jeong debacle, and while he's probably more critical than many posters here would like, he's very much of the opinion that she should not have been fired for her Twitter history. In fact, he says that he doesn't think anyone at all should be fired because of outside social pressure.

Edit - again, let me suggest a title alteration. Safe spaces are not really the topic of discussion here, although they are certainly relate to the general argument. A pretty high percentage of the posts here are only barely relevant to this discussion because they've quite understandably fixated on the reference to safe spaces in the thread title.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,325
I think the oddest thing is that many of the crusaders against safe act like safe spaces are some new thing.

They've been around for decades now and their function hasn't changed.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,805
I can't recall if they were discussed on the podcast (dismissals due to criticism of Israel, that is), but in the book and in other parts of his media tour Haidt absolutely is careful to emphasize that the issues he identifies are not restricted to the "left." Generally, he's against mob justice of any political flavor - e.g., on the podcast he discusses the Sarah Jeong debacle, and while he's probably more critical than many posters here would like, he's very much of the opinion that she should not have been fired for her Twitter history. In fact, he says that he doesn't think anyone at all should be fired because of outside social pressure.
The problem is that if the only examples provided are from the right wing when it's about provocateurs like Milo and not about professors literally getting fired, it trivializes the issue to the point of fear mongering.
 

Bramblebutt

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
1,858
As a fan of Haidt (The Righteous Mind changed the way I looked at morality and politics), I'll just stop by to note that it's ironic how many of the responses to this podcast are examples of what he calls (in The Coddling of the American Mind, the book discussed in the podcast) the "Third Great Untruth": "Life is battle between good people and evil people."

Edit - For what it's worth, you may want to edit the title, which makes it seem like the subject of the podcast is safe spaces. Most posters aren't going to listen to the podcast -- it's a huge time investment -- and although safe spaces are arguably part of the overall issue Haidt and his coauthor describe, they're barely mentioned, if at all, in the actual discussion in question.
I don't understand how you can put stock in such an absurdly unfounded generalization as the notion that universities are teaching their students to view things in black and white terms. Have you ever attended a humanities class?
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
I can't recall if they were discussed on the podcast (dismissals due to criticism of Israel, that is), but in the book and in other parts of his media tour Haidt absolutely is careful to emphasize that the issues he identifies are not restricted to the "left." Generally, he's against mob justice of any political flavor - e.g., on the podcast he discusses the Sarah Jeong debacle, and while he's probably more critical than many posters here would like, he's very much of the opinion that she should not have been fired for her Twitter history. In fact, he says that he doesn't think anyone at all should be fired because of outside social pressure.
Social pressure is market pressure in capitalism, honestly. Sometimes it's real market pressure, sometimes it's perceived (see James Gunn, for example), but it's not new and treating it like it's new ignores the way we have shifted with broader, more public platforms for discourse.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,805
I don't understand how you can put stock in such an absurdly unfounded generalization as the notion that universities are teaching their students to view things in black and white terms. Have you ever attended a humanities class?
It seems counterproductive to the kind of teaching Universities would provide as well.
Like if you're not in Religious college of Creationism there's a good chance nuance, critical thinking and being precise are skills highly valuable that the place should be trying to foster.
I mean even if you're doing Math theory applied to super conductor.
 
Oct 25, 2017
99
NY
User Banned (2 Days): Repeatedly antagonizing other members
This place isn't a safe space. For what read should our views be censored?

Not a safe space indeed. People clicking on the thread dolling off one liners to shout someone down are the same who would show up to a 'To Kill A Mockingbird' reading wearing a PETA shirt. "Harper Lee hates birds and I hear she's liberal *and* right wing funded by Koch... at the same time!"

How about engaging the material instead of being an absolute parody of yourselves. Everyone has an axe to grind because Sam Harris discussed something they hold dear. He's like a shapeshifting Boogeyman for daring to be Liberal and still discussing difficult topics.

If you didn't want people to focus on Harris maybe ask for a thread title change or something.
It's like the 4th time you go on and on about the same boring shit about how people are not "engaging" with the content like the content had any value to begin with while at the same time derailing the thread with your moaning.

I can reply to responses. I've even quoted new posts inside older posts of mine like this one. If it's boring take a nap.

If there is no content then the thread will die. Try not to hide behind that point. You weren't forced to provide a reaction.
 
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obeast

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
559
I don't understand how you can put stock in such an absurdly unfounded generalization as the notion that universities are teaching their students to view things in black and white terms. Have you ever attended a humanities class?

That's not the argument (with the caveat that I've just started reading the book, so my paraphrase should be taken with a grain of salt). He's arguing that a variety of forces, all of them well-intended, have conspired to encouraged tribal thinking, something that human beings are very susceptible to. He's pushing back against the idea that the people at odds with you over morality/politics/whatever are motivated by malicious intent rather than honest disagreement. He's not arguing, by my reading, that universities are *teaching* this explicitly.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,805
Not a safe space indeed. People clicking on the thread dolling off one liners to shout someone down are the same who would show up to a 'To Kill A Mockingbird' reading wearing a PETA shirt. "Harper Lee hates birds and I hear she's liberal *and* right wing funded by Koch... at the same time!"

How about engaging the material instead of being an absolute parody of yourselves. Everyone has an axe to grind because Sam Harris discussed something they hold dear. He's like a shapeshifting Boogeyman for daring to be Liberal and still discussing difficult topics .
If you didn't want people to focus on Harris maybe ask for a thread title change or something.
It's like the 4th time you go on and on about the same boring shit about how people are not "engaging" with the content like the content had any value to begin with while at the same time derailing the thread with your moaning.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Not a safe space indeed. People clicking on the thread dolling off one liners to shout someone down are the same who would show up to a 'To Kill A Mockingbird' reading wearing a PETA shirt. "Harper Lee hates birds and I hear she's liberal *and* right wing funded by Koch... at the same time!"

How about engaging the material instead of being an absolute parody of yourselves. Everyone has an axe to grind because Sam Harris discussed something they hold dear. He's like a shapeshifting Boogeyman for daring to be Liberal and still discussing difficult topics .
That's not it.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,211
All the outrage surrounding safe spaces always sounds like another dumb conservative moral panic.

I always picture the people whining about them like sociopathic assholes who'd walk into an AA meeting, sit down, proudly claim they have no addiction, and proceed to interrupt the speaker every 2 minutes to give their opinion.
 

GrooveCommand

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,340
I find it extremely offensive that these idiots say shit like 'coddling the American mind' when the reality is that people are just intolerant of racist/sexist bullshit, as they should be. It has nothing to do with protecting people from these ideas, people who are in college already know about this shit and don't need to learn more about it.

When are people going to get that there's no more room for tolerating this kind of shit anymore? Freedom of speech be damned, racists can go to hell.