Finally someone understands my problem and when you Google about this topic, like the Wikipedia article, the Focus is only on the englisch language. And because I know no one that is identifying as non binary I have no one to ask for.
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Sam Smith comes out as non-binary (see staff post for discussion guidelines)
- Thread starter Khaos Prime
- Start date
Finally someone understands my problem and when you Google about this topic, like the Wikipedia article, the Focus is only on the englisch language. And because I know no one that is identifying as non binary I have no one to ask for.
Everyone understands the problem, it's a common topic. It just doesn't have an immediate de-facto solution in some languages. Which is why I'd recommend looking into those communities if you're interested to see what they are choosing to use and how the language is developing within those spaces and conversations.
Society has been dealing with it for hundreds of years. Hell you has been dealing with it fine for as long as you could speak English and you probably never noticed, why is you running into problems now?
I cannot help to wonder, if they were a Spanish/Romance speaking person instead or living in a Spanish or Romance speaking country, what would they do, given that what they are requesting (being regarded using neutral pronouns) is impossible in those languages.
I mean, I am completely sure that non-binary people exist in all cultures, but the act of choosing pronouns (which based on my albeit limited exposure to this topic seems to be an important part of the whole coming out process) seems like would only be given importance in cultures where the languages allow for it.
I mean, I am completely sure that non-binary people exist in all cultures, but the act of choosing pronouns (which based on my albeit limited exposure to this topic seems to be an important part of the whole coming out process) seems like would only be given importance in cultures where the languages allow for it.
The beauty of languages is that they change. New words and meanings are introduced all the time as old ones are forgotten. It's true some languages may struggle at first but they can be adapted.
Does "das" was used as a neutral gender in old German? I think I learned that "das" was used for young ladies in the past (today I guess it is offensive). English/German based languages already have a neutral pronoun (it / das) but I understand that their modern use just for things would be offensive in this case. They/them implies plural, and it is not also exactly what binary people mean. Plus in Latin languages like Spanish/Portuguese the plural carries the gender (singular: ele/ela plural: eles/elas) só the problem continues.
But back in the main topic, good for them (see, I am learning). I thought they did it long ago.
japanese doesn't have gendered nouns like romance languages, and in fact in normal conversation pronouns are almost never used. one of the first things english speakers have to learn when starting out with japanese is to resist the urge to say "he" or "she" in sentences all the time because it sounds super unnatural.
Oh, I am sure the language will adapt if there's need for it. The point is that, unlike in Anglophone countries, when non-binary people come out here (Spain, which is quite open in LGBT issues in general), it seems pronouns are rarely something that is mentioned. While there is certainly a push to make pronoun usage more inclusive (as traditionally male nouns acted as de facto neutral nouns) and a lot of people talk about it, I personally haven't heard any serious discussion at the need of changing pronouns. Thus far it is not a request I have ever heard or read about, it seems like [Spanish-speaking] non-binary people simply identify as such and use the same pronouns they always had or use or another indistinctly.
That's what I meant, that it seems like the linguistic background in a way seems to condition part of the identity; it may be that non-binary Anglophones regard the use of 'they/them' as an important aspect of their non-binary identities, while non-binary people who speak other languages -particularly those like Spanish that are heavily gendered-, don't.
The explanation is right there in the quote you posted. "Man" refers to "person", not "male". "Each man" is singular, "they" refers to "each man", an unknown person.
But, hey, sure. "Gotcha, OED!".
Edit: Oh. Your other posts in this topic... Yeah, I see your pattern. Not worth it to continue this.
Why are people still quoting me without actually going back and looking at the whole thing? I didn't say this out of the blue, it was in response to a chain started by the very first reply... "Not to be rude, but I don't get it."
A no effort troll got a no effort reply. I've since clarified multiple times that if you're genuinely curious and not using a question to troll, that it could at least be phrased nicely.
But by all means, let's continue to protect the people intentionally shitting up this thread for the sake of decorum. (Hint: if you start a conversation by being rude, you can expect ride responses by default)
Thanks. So in spanish I could use the same quick rule and refer to them as a music band.
e.g.
-Sam Smith estuvieron contentos de participar en el festival musical. Indicaron que tienen planeado lanzar un nuevo sencillo pronto.
-SonicFox ganaron el torneo de SFV
Thing is those nouns are first person nouns and not referring in 3rd person, maybe the noun "Vos" is more apropiate. ustedes/usted is "You" in a more respectful way.
YOu can actually use estuvo o gano as those verbs are non gendered and are based on context
"Sam Smith estuvo feliz" would be the correct non binary, as the word contento is the gendered word here (contento or contenta).
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So when they say "Each man" they are not talking about multiple people? (Notice how I say "they" about something written by a single person, obviously I'm not doubting that "they" can be used as a singular, I'm just wondering about this specific instance).
I'm 100% behind Sam Smith's decision and will support their choice of pronouns. I don't know why that should preclude a linguistic discussion though. I find it interesting if nothing else. I'm also wondering what other posts are supposed to be offensive?
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When you say "each man" you are referring to a selection/group of men, but you are doing so individually, to each man "one-by-one" you could think of it. Each man is an individual... notice, "each man are an individual" would be weird. Heck you can google "each man are" and you'll immediately be corrected with "each man is" suggestions. Or notice the common usages of "each man" paired with singular grammar -- "Each man kills the thing he loves" and "Each man is an island".
Sure but the past tense made it sound like they were referring to a group doing something specific, even if they addressed them as multiple individuals.
Like if we were talking about the *Game of Thrones season 5 spoilers" death of Jon Snow someone might write "Each man took turns stabbing their commander to death." This may actually be considered a singular use of they/their also and I'm just thinking about it incorrectly.
You are right, it is also biological. I guess I was just focusing on the social - psychological aspects of it to make a point.
Thanks, makes sense.
I still don't understand, but in time I can get used to it.
It's almost like that's why I said "this forum" and not "the public at large."
Yes it would, and that's what people mean when they say singular they/their has always been incredibly common in ways that people never actually think about - until the conversation about non-binary people comes up.
For example, the poster above me just used a long-familiar phrase that's often directed at individual entities to absolutely no confusion as well! When someone uses they/their in a singular manner nobody ever stops immediately to ask "woah woah woah how many people are we dealing with here?", it's generally not a significant detail and is covered through context. Maybe someone misinterprets without realizing later at which point a simple clarification isn't difficult - this stuff also happens all the time because Natural Language is *very* often ambiguous and open to misinterpretation.
Spanish is a little bit different when it comes to rules of plurar and singular, in english, is usually the noun that defines it, however in spanish, the noun is not suficient to complete singular or plurar, the verb as well need to be done so, so in your example:
"-Sam Smith estuvieron contentos de participar en el festival musical. Indicaron que tienen planeado lanzar un nuevo sencillo pronto."
The words estuvieron, indicaron and tienen are verbs, and those verbs are gender neutral, so what you are doing here is describing a group of people. the use of the "ieron/ienen" are made to describe only plurar, and have no effect in gender identification, so you can perfectly use the singular word here because they are not gendered, in this case "estuvo, indico y tiene"
Important to know that as the commonuse on spanish nouns there isnt really a non gendered third person word, you either have El o Ellas (male and female for they or them)
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Yeah I don't get it either but whatever floats their boat I guess. I tried reading a news article about someone who refers to themselves as they/them and it was really confusing.
Ya, thats a great question, I was actually wondering the same thing! Live and learn i suppose...
It's just how it's used currently.
"I didn't catch OP before they left for work but I'm glad they're happy and it all turned out well".
They was hard to get my head around at first and possibly the first time I felt old in terms of trying to keep up with change. But weirdly, my brain re-wired itself and it comes totally naturally to me now. No problem with using it.
I can see how it could be confusing to a non-native English speaker. But you can say that about the entire language.
I can see how it could be confusing to a non-native English speaker. But you can say that about the entire language.
This thread is depressing.
Btw, to people in here who legitimately have questions about how to use singular they/them in a sentence: think of how singular you is used.
he is
she is
you are
they are
Btw, to people in here who legitimately have questions about how to use singular they/them in a sentence: think of how singular you is used.
he is
she is
you are
they are
Thanks for taking the time to type all this. It makes me (and hopefully others) think about it to respect other's requests.
With some time, I'm sure lots of us will get used to it. The media will get used to it and make it easier too.
I never really thought about this before, but a celebrity has the ability to broadcast their preference and have the media amplify it.
The average person is going to be pigeon holed into whatever pronoun their society has assigned to their appearance.
I wonder if our language will shift to make singular they/them even more common.
The average person is going to be pigeon holed into whatever pronoun their society has assigned to their appearance.
I wonder if our language will shift to make singular they/them even more common.
Mate half the thread has been about it, do some cursory reading.
EDIT: Sorry if this came off as abrupt. The short version is some will have troubles with it, some have some implementations already, the general? Consensus if there is one is that they are probably a bit behind English on this one so far, they can probably work around it.
Right, but I'm talking about the traditional gender differences in speech patterns and vocabulary.
Sure. But externally we have no idea what anyone's innate gender identity is. People have to announce what they want to be called or else society will use the pronoun generally assigned to their outward appearance.
Even when we DO know someone's gender identity, that person may not want people to refer to it publicly.
So no, I'm not saying people choose their identity, I'm saying people choose what Pronoun they expect others use for them - and celebrities have an ability to broadcast that in ways that the average person can't.
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That would destroy the site and make discussion even worse
Are isn't (always)plural. In this instance it's singluar.
"Are is the second-person singular and plural forms of the verb "to be", the copula of the English language. "
I'm sure you've said "You are great" or something along those lines? That's a singular use of the word are. They/them can also be singular "You are going over to their house? They live on Number Street.".
User banned (3 days): Ignoring staff post.
All these pages of debate, and really the amusing thing is he announced his preferred pronouns set in type that looks like the next YA novel movie adaptation blockbuster.
This does not work, you are pluralising the noun but the adjectives are still masculine ("contentos").