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Samuel L. Jackson Responds to Martin Scorsese’s Marvel Comments

GC-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,103
He can suggest that he prefers depth over thrill without suggesting that movies produced primarily to thrill aren't cinema
True but it’s also not an unusual to make distinctions between different types of film. There are many forms of film that don't come under ‘cinema’ as in the usage he intended, I think it is pretty clear that he sees it as a product with a specific purpose that doesn’t fit within his parameters for what ‘cinema’ is to him.

I think a lot of what he does like The Departed, Shutter Island, Gangs of a New York are in a similar vein to Disney products and standard Hollywood fair so I don’t think he is immune to criticism on his statements either, I just haven’t really seen any good ones in this thread or the last one yet.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,729
True but it’s also not an unusual to make distinctions between different types of film. There are many forms of film that don't come under ‘cinema’ as in the usage he intended, I think it is pretty clear that he sees it as a product with a specific purpose that doesn’t fit within his parameters for what ‘cinema’ is to him.

I think a lot of what he does like The Departed, Shutter Island, Gangs of a New York are in a similar vein to Disney products and standard Hollywood fair so I don’t think he is immune to criticism on his statements either, I just haven’t really seen any good ones in this thread or the last one yet.
The type of cinema he prefers and what cinema actually is are two different things. To single a body of work out as unqualified to be considered cinema is wrong.

Yes it's perfectly fine to make distinctions between different types of film. Saying that marvel films primarily aim evoke thrill isn't wrong. But to suggest such aim makes a film unqualified as cinema is gatekeeping, and it's wrong.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,621
+1 in my book for Scorsese. I mean, Marvel movies are movies, but they're empty. Always made from the ground up to make money first and foremost, which goes for most of Disney's output at this point. It shouldn't be a surprise that some have little respect for that.

The theme park thing applies to a common criticism of Marvel movies -- that they're disposable. One big event after another where all the interest is in the hype, and the films themselves are quickly forgotten.
That's rich coming from the guy who stanned the DCEU so. fucking. hard.
 
Jun 17, 2019
92
Something that I find rather interesting is that Martin is going full circle on himself and becoming what he railed against when he and the other "youngins" in the late 60s and 70s were filming. Namely he sounds a lot like Tennessee Williams, who commented about Martin's work at the time, that it was not cinema at all and that it was more like a Roman circus (Coliseum), all bloody spectacle and no substance to it.

So I find it weird that he's becoming Tennessee here in this case.

Oh by the way this was said of either Goodfellas or the Godfather films.
 

FaceHugger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,792
Sam telling it like it is.

This is all ironic because early in his career (Scorsese) him and his colleagues - Lucas, et al - were considered to be outsiders. Not making "real" cinema.

Old man yelling at clouds and shit I guess.
 
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Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,395
Scorsese's comments were stupid. The notion that "cinema" requires some kind of arbitrary standard of perceived depth or meaning is absurd, and amusingly is a criticism that was leveled at his more violent films (particularly Taxi Driver and Goodfellas) by old men who didn't like this "new school" of filmmakers who were on the rise and wanted a way to dismiss them. They were wrong about him, and he's wrong about this. But the furor over his comments is pretty ridiculous. Who cares what Martin Scorsese thinks about a Spider-Man movie? They're cinema as much as any populist film is, which is to say, entirely.

+1 in my book for Scorsese. I mean, Marvel movies are movies, but they're empty. Always made from the ground up to make money first and foremost, which goes for most of Disney's output at this point. It shouldn't be a surprise that some have little respect for that.

The theme park thing applies to a common criticism of Marvel movies -- that they're disposable. One big event after another where all the interest is in the hype, and the films themselves are quickly forgotten.
Come back in 20 years when the kids who grew up with the early MCU are adults and still using the themes and lessons of those movies to help them in every day life and say that again, and be even more wrong than you are now. You sound like the dismissive twits in the early '80s calling Star Wars empty popcorn fluff that nobody would remember in a few years. Every time someone tries to dismiss populist entertainment they end up being wrong in the short term and hilariously wrong in the long term.
 

erlim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,130
Los Angeles
Yeah, fine; circus act or whatever---but Marvel's real value to me, and what I wish I had when I was kid was this kind of diverse representation as leads in tent-pole films that they feature. Somebody I could dream to be. I had Jet Li and stuff; and I'm an actor today because I could see him on screen and just believe I could too. But like---I am so far removed from China or Chinese culture. I saw Lupita Nyong'o on a news program today and she argued the value of Black Panther. Any kid can go into the toy isle and be like, 'Hell yeah! T'challa rocks! I want that figure! Or Captain Marvel." And maybe Shang Chi will end up being legit. Like, even if it's high fantasy/genre; it's normalizing that marginalized groups can be stars and heroes just the same, and this is huge.

Love Scorsese; has changed cinema forever---but so has the MCU.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,866
User warned: driveby trolling
Marvel stans are apparently so desperate for validation that as soon as an old-school filmmaker says he personally doesn't consider them high art (which is what he's really saying when he says 'cinema'), they will discuss it into eternity. Really, who the hell cares whether or not Scorsese likes the same movies you like? Just let it go.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
8,260
Marvel stans are apparently so desperate for validation that as soon as an old-school filmmaker says he personally doesn't consider them high art (which is what he's really saying when he says 'cinema'), they will discuss it into eternity. Really, who the hell cares whether or not Scorsese likes the same movies you like? Just let it go.
People don't like it when someone calls their favourite movies crap. Particularly someone who has an influence with the populace on how "cinema" is viewed, as though it's beneath him. What's he going to do next? Condemn Jaws and Star Wars for creating the blockbuster?
 

GC-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,103
Love Scorsese; has changed cinema forever---but so has the MCU.
By doing what? They aren’t really any different than any other Disney product or Blockbuster, certainly haven't added anything to the cinematic language like Scorsese did. Only real difference between MCU and lets just say Pirates of the Caribbean is that one has decade of fandom behind it and appeal to far more people.

The type of cinema he prefers and what cinema actually is are two different things. To single a body of work out as unqualified to be considered cinema is wrong.

Yes it's perfectly fine to make distinctions between different types of film. Saying that marvel films primarily aim evoke thrill isn't wrong. But to suggest such aim makes a film unqualified as cinema is gatekeeping, and it's wrong.
MCU are blockbusters when he uses ‘cinema’ from my read and the context I’d expect him to be referring to Hollywood tradition of a feature film, which is a very different thing from a Blockbuster. Just as it is different from arthouse, B movies, grindhouse, Bollywood, and classical Hollywood.
 
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Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,892
Quoting Alan Moore is hilarious in this context. His work is the reason why comics are catering to adults instead of kids. He's never written a damn storyline that was for kids, or could even properly be understood by kids.


By doing what? They aren’t really any different than any other Disney product or Blockbuster, certainly haven't added anything to the cinematic language like Scorsese did. Only real difference between MCU and lets just say Pirates of the Caribbean is that one has decade of fandom behind it and appeal to far more people.
What? Yes they are. This line of arguing is so dishonest. The MCU did something no one else has ever achieved, they made Comic Book content in movie form mainstream, they managed to connect films with one another to tell coherent, multi-film storylines with actual climaxes in ensemble movies that are incredibly rare to begin with, and they did all this while NOT being embarassed by the source material like the other people who tried were.

Discounting what the MCU achieved because you don't like the films is just goddamn silly. You know what else was a popcorn flick blockbuster? Terminator 2.
 

GC-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,103
Quoting Alan Moore is hilarious in this context. His work is the reason why comics are catering to adults instead of kids. He's never written a damn storyline that was for kids, or could even properly be understood by kids.




What? Yes they are. This line of arguing is so dishonest. The MCU did something no one else has ever achieved, they made Comic Book content in movie form mainstream, they managed to connect films with one another to tell coherent, multi-film storylines with actual climaxes in ensemble movies that are incredibly rare to begin with, and they did all this while NOT being embarassed by the source material like the other people who tried were.

Discounting what the MCU achieved because you don't like the films is just goddamn silly. You know what else was a popcorn flick blockbuster? Terminator 2.
None of that was done first by MCU. Interconnecting stories in film are not something new, many directors throughout the ages have based their films in the same universe. Ensemble movies aren’t that rare, one gets remade over and over again and was the basis for the first avenger film.

Also Alan Moore if you listen to him speak clearly has a bad impression of his own work done in his early years.

I also have no problem with Blockbusters, Ridley Scott is possibly one of the better Blockbuster directors I wouldn’t put any of the MCU stuff close to half of Ridley Scott’s work. He also has a lot of crap which they are better than, actually much better than.
 
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John Dunbar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,198
What? Yes they are. This line of arguing is so dishonest. The MCU did something no one else has ever achieved, they made Comic Book content in movie form mainstream, they managed to connect films with one another to tell coherent, multi-film storylines with actual climaxes in ensemble movies that are incredibly rare to begin with, and they did all this while NOT being embarassed by the source material like the other people who tried were.

Discounting what the MCU achieved because you don't like the films is just goddamn silly. You know what else was a popcorn flick blockbuster? Terminator 2.
what on earth does that mean? raimi's spider-man wasn't mainstream? burton's batman? hell, superman in the 70s?
 

Denman

Member
Apr 21, 2018
2,977
why not both? not saying going scorched earth is the way to go, but we can laud him for his work in film preservation, but also call bullshit on his gatekeeping in a manner more dignified than name calling.

Is it gate keeping? He called them theme park rides. I love theme park rides. They are fun.

But I do agree I get nothing on a deeper level from MCU films, they never stay with me or make me internalize things about life. They are still fun and entertaining movies.

I don’t think we need to live in a world where people should preface their opinions with “in my opinion” or need to make it super polite. He shared his opinion, it wasn’t scathing. End of story.
 

BadAss2961

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,987
That's rich coming from the guy who stanned the DCEU so. fucking. hard.
Come back in 20 years when the kids who grew up with the early MCU are adults and still using the themes and lessons of those movies to help them in every day life and say that again, and be even more wrong than you are now. You sound like the dismissive twits in the early '80s calling Star Wars empty popcorn fluff that nobody would remember in a few years. Every time someone tries to dismiss populist entertainment they end up being wrong in the short term and hilariously wrong in the long term.
Comments like Scorsese's only hurt you guys so much because deep down you know it's true.

I don't know about Scorsese, but for many, this isn't a knock on the genre itself, but specifically Marvel movies. Their kind, and the way they're made.

I'd love to hear about the 'themes and lessons' in the MCU that will help these kids in their every day life (lol.) The reason why people dismiss these movies is because they see right through them. They aren't made to be remembered or to instill anything in you, they're made by committee in a predatory fashion to get your money for as long it lasts. Disney's even willing to use their legion of fanboys to leverage their monopolistic business deals.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,621
Comments like Scorsese's only hurt you guys so much because deep down you know it's true.

I don't know about Scorsese, but for many, this isn't a knock on the genre itself, but specifically Marvel movies. Their kind, and the way they're made.

I'd love to hear about the 'themes and lessons' in the MCU that will help these kids in their every day life (lol.) The reason why people dismiss these movies is because they see right through them. They aren't made to be remembered or to instill anything in you, they're made by committee in a predatory fashion to get your money for as long it lasts. Disney's even willing to use their legion of fanboys to leverage their monopolistic business deals.
Fanboy accuses others of being fanboys. Like I might be able to take your words seriously if you weren't notorious for trolling Marvel threads in the past. So all your words come across as hollow.

And fun fact? This whole thing doesn't hurt me. I'm going to be living me life the same regardless of what Scorsese said. He doesn't need to like the movies. This was never even about some idea that he needs to like them.

Ultimately, stop being a hypocrite.
 

BadAss2961

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,987
Fanboy accuses others of being fanboys. Like I might be able to take your words seriously if you weren't notorious for trolling Marvel threads in the past. So all your words come across as hollow.

And fun fact? This whole thing doesn't hurt me. I'm going to be living me life the same regardless of what Scorsese said. He doesn't need to like the movies. This was never even about some idea that he needs to like them.

Ultimately, stop being a hypocrite.
Fanboy of what? I barely have an interest in the DCEU these days. My support was always conditional.

I'm not getting in my feelings every time someone criticizes Mahvel. Don't know about you, but that's this forum's vibe.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,621
Fanboy of what? I barely have an interest in the DCEU these days. My support was always conditional.

I'm not getting in my feelings every time someone criticizes Mahvel. Don't know about you, but that's this forum's vibe.
At the time it wasn't conditional, you were deep. Seriously, any time you showed up in a Marvel thread or a DC thread it was basically the same thing over and over. Marvel bad. DC good. Just posts to rile people up then to actually contribute to anything.

Also pretty sure more people in this thread are "railing" on Marvel fans then actual Marvel fans going crazy.

Are there some crazy fans? Obviously. Any fanbase that gets this big has crazies. Two of the craziest were even banned from this forum. But this thread is mostly about generalization then anything, taking the actions of the few and pushing that onto everyone.

Lastly in terms of what can be looked at and gained from the MCU, look no further then the video essay of Lindsay Ellis:

 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,621
I wasn't really serious when I asked for this. But ah, the classic 'here's a video of someone speaking for me.'

I'll pass.
Cool, then your not even worth listening to.

I'm a dweeb working an average job who hasn't had go through much hardship in life and have lived fairly comfortably.

So I'd rather someone like Lindsay, who has had complex relationship with family who can relate to one of the movies speak over someone who doesn't really have a leg to stand on.
 

deathsaber

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,291
LOL at people arguing various semantics. I movie is a movie because its a story that plays on a screen. Some want to use the fancier term "cinema"? Guess what? Its the same fucking thing.

Yeah, some movies/moviemakers are going for "art". Others are just trying to make feel good/exciting entertainment. Both have value and a place in the movie world, and neither are any less of a movie, or piece of "cinema" than the other.
 

Kuma Bear

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,716
Japan
He's jealous. Me and my circle talk Marvel and watch Marvel, it appeals to a broader range of people and has been applauded for trying to make movies more diverse.

It might not be artsy fartsy but those movies get a lot more love and a Marvel movies crew shouldn't be ashamed to receive that.
 

BadAss2961

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,987
Cool, then your not even worth listening to.

I'm a dweeb working an average job who hasn't had go through much hardship in life and have lived fairly comfortably.

So I'd rather someone like Lindsay, who has had complex relationship with family who can relate to one of the movies speak over someone who doesn't really have a leg to stand on.
You remember me just as you remembered that video. Clearly i'm standing on something.
 

Matthew77

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,990
Massachusetts
LOL at people arguing various semantics. I movie is a movie because its a story that plays on a screen. Some want to use the fancier term "cinema"? Guess what? Its the same fucking thing.

Yeah, some movies/moviemakers are going for "art". Others are just trying to make feel good/exciting entertainment. Both have value and a place in the movie world, and neither are any less of a movie, or piece of "cinema" than the other.
But I think with Martin it’s semantics too, people are getting all up in their feelings over the word cinema when all he was saying is some films mean to entertain and some strive to be more and he is only into one of those but there is nothing wrong with the other they are just not for him.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,621
You remember me just as you remembered that video. Clearly i'm standing on something.
I mean what are you trying to do? Re-write history? Back on the old forum you were well known for your bias. Just because you stopped recently doesn't suddenly mean you didn't do what you did.

Sorry that I called you a hypocrite for stanning movies that Scorses's comments could also be levied at.
 

GC-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,103
He's jealous. Me and my circle talk Marvel and watch Marvel, it appeals to a broader range of people and has been applauded for trying to make movies more diverse.

It might not be artsy fartsy but those movies get a lot more love and a Marvel movies crew shouldn't be ashamed to receive that.
Its not even really about being “artsy fartsy”, that is what I personally prefer but MCU and blockbusters aren’t that type of content but they could do so much more because they are extraordinarily safe, which would make them better films. I’m not a superhero fan personally either but I like a good film and I want more than face value, especially on a big budget production.

Give this video essay a watch if you can:

It only focuses on the music but it does a great job of showing how it could be improved, this can also be applied to the rest of the elements in the films such as cinematography, editing, characters (major and minor), movement, relationships, dialogue and themes whilst still giving fans exactly what they want.

I’m not trying to shit on people’s enjoyment of the movies either just trying to highlight why many are vocal against MCU when they hear claims such as “the best movie ever made” as they look at film in a very different way. Although I can’t speak for the fan wars I couldn’t give a toss about that.

I should state that they have also got better in the more recent movies but there is so much they could do especially when they have a wealth of content and resources at their disposal.
 
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deathsaber

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,291
But I think with Martin it’s semantics too, people are getting all up in their feelings over the word cinema when all he was saying is some films mean to entertain and some strive to be more and he is only into one of those but there is nothing wrong with the other they are just not for him.
And I'm sure this a soundbyte that the media is blowing way out of proportion, and its ok for Martin to not like a cerain genre, or whatever, but I do bristle when people imply something isn't a film or cinema because it isn't artsy fartsy or whatever.

I had a similar reaction earlier this year when Spielberg was kind of ranting against Netflix movies, trying to say they shouldn't win Oscars because they aren't films if they didn't show in a theater. Again, its ok to prefer the movie theater, to use film instead of digital, and whatnot, but to say something isn't a film at all, or worthy of an academy award because Netflix produced it, is silly.
 

Matthew77

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,990
Massachusetts
And I'm sure this a soundbyte that the media is blowing way out of proportion, and its ok for Martin to not like a cerain genre, or whatever, but I do bristle when people imply something isn't a film or cinema because it isn't artsy fartsy or whatever.

I had a similar reaction earlier this year when Spielberg was kind of ranting against Netflix movies, trying to say they shouldn't win Oscars because they aren't films if they didn't show in a theater. Again, its ok to prefer the movie theater, to use film instead of digital, and whatnot, but to say something isn't a film at all, or worthy of an academy award because Netflix produced it, is silly.
And I agree with you on that also, which is funny with Marty’s latest. I just think a lot of this is media trying to cause controversy and clicks in an era when the news behind the entertainment can’t hold a candle to real world events. Bad time for celebrity watching and gossip.
 
Nov 9, 2017
1,703
I do think Nick Fury is one of SLJ's worst roles. He comes off on screen as just plain ol SLJ speaking lines instead of a defined comic book character personality.
 

erlim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,130
Los Angeles
MCU are blockbusters when he uses ‘cinema’ from my read and the context I’d expect him to be referring to Hollywood tradition of a feature film, which is a very different thing from a Blockbuster. Just as it is different from arthouse, B movies, grindhouse, Bollywood, and classical Hollywood.
Still, I'd argue that cinema; made for a filmmaker as opposed to movies, made for a wide-audience would have a difficult time supporting minority voices if they weren't first proven to be viable box office draws. So, in my eyes, I see these blockbusters as a profound tool to eventually gather a mainstream audience around undeserved voices.
 

GC-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,103
Still, I'd argue that cinema; made for a filmmaker as opposed to movies, made for a wide-audience would have a difficult time supporting minority voices if they weren't first proven to be viable box office draws. So, in my eyes, I see these blockbusters as a profound tool to eventually gather a mainstream audience around undeserved voices.
Can’t argue with that. Film regardless of type has a problem of representation outside of the middle classes and when delved into usually depict a distorted view surrounded by violence and abuse. Sometimes you get a gem like the Brazilian film Araby or Spike Lees’s Crooklyn but they don’t have mass appeal despite their plaudits.
 

True Savior

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,533
wasteland
People don't like it when someone calls their favourite movies crap. Particularly someone who has an influence with the populace on how "cinema" is viewed, as though it's beneath him. What's he going to do next? Condemn Jaws and Star Wars for creating the blockbuster?
Scorsese is just shitting on crappy movies in the nicest possible way. Why would he diss a film like jaws.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,117
I don't get why people are even surprised by this. Many filmmakers of his day frowned at the idea of a single fucking sequel. WTF do you expect Scorcese to think of 22 interconnected popcorn films? I doubt he spends his weekends watching Commando or Rocky marathons either.
 

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The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,178
Denver, Colorado
Using "cinema" in that context was a poor choice of words, and I think undercut what Scorsese was trying to say.

But holy shit, the amount of vitriol and anger directed at Scorsese for basically going "eh, not for me, but I can see why people like it" is fucking embarrassing.
Maybe because that's not what he said at all? No matter how you slice it he was tearing down the hard work of colleagues, denigrating it as not worthy of being considered on his level.

If you spent a lot of time writing a book and gave it to a contemporary for review, and their review was "I tried to read this but didn't, because this isn't even a book", I bet you'd take issue with that as not being particularly productive, nice, or even remotely accurate. When Scorsese says Marvel movies aren't even really movies, he's not saying "meh, just not for me"; he's making a pretty direct, unambiguous and dumb statement.
 

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The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,178
Denver, Colorado
I don't get why people are even surprised by this. Many filmmakers of his day frowned at the idea of a single fucking sequel.
Which is pretty funny given that ~80% of Scorsese's most celebrated works are essentially the same retelling of a mobster's rise to power and ultimate undoing by his own hand. I mean that's Goodfellas, Casino, and The Departed in a nutshell. I love all those movies to death, but he's not exactly breaking new ground at this point.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,117
Which is pretty funny given that ~80% of Scorsese's most celebrated works are essentially the same retelling of a mobster's rise to power and ultimate undoing by his own hand. I mean that's Goodfellas, Casino, and The Departed in a nutshell. I love all those movies to death, but he's not exactly breaking new ground at this point.
That's a theme. That's not 22 movies connected by random cameos and post-credit advertisements. I mean come on. This is like expecting Beethoven to go jogging while listening to Taylor Swift. Marvel is fun for us but its not the kind of thing that someone like Scorcese looks for in movies.