he has high standards
They sure as fuck are not on his level of cinema. Let him have an opinion. I mean even if its not needed and he made it out of jealousy of sales and popularity he has a decent point.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Samuel L. Jackson Responds to Martin Scorsese’s Marvel Comments
- Thread starter Bor Gullet
- Start date
he has high standards
They sure as fuck are not on his level of cinema. Let him have an opinion. I mean even if its not needed and he made it out of jealousy of sales and popularity he has a decent point.
oh disneys making a statement, "get the fuck out the way, papa coming through"
Yea SLJ basically saying "Everyone has opinions." Whoa!
The whole "gatekeeping" thing is pretty funny. If anything you could even argue in the opposite direction... the insane overreaction to his comments will pretty much make any future director/actor/whatever keep their opinions to themselves.
I also have high standards (relatively) but I can't ban The Devil Inside for not being cinema. It's cinema by definition whether I like it or not (and I don't)
Yeah if he'd just said "I don't like Marvel movies," it wouldn't have gotten any attention. Raising the bar to "they don't count as cinema" is a shitty thing to say about your colleagues. Yeah, at the end of the day they're products bankrolled by a corporation, but that doesn't preclude them from having artistic merit. Some Marvel movies are more effective than others, of course, but even that's entirely subjective and there's a reason why movies like Black Panther and Captain Marvel resonated with people, even if they're still tentpole blockbusters.
I'm a playwright and theatre director, I've done serious scripts but I've also written plenty of goofy pop culture parodies. I love doing both and anyone who would turn their nose up at the latter as "not real art" or whatever gets a one-way ticket to my shit list. I don't care who you are and I don't care if anyone thinks the Zelda play I produced this summer was cheap nerd bait. It totally was, and I had a great time doing it, so fuck the haters. Scorsese is a great director and this won't stop me from checking out his movies, but you can't expect to say these popular films that everyone* loves aren't "real cinema" and not expect folks to take umbrage with that. Much the same as when I'm told some of the plays I do aren't "real theater."
People do realise the Scorsese was originally involved in the production of Joker and that film uses one of his films as a basis and this why he got rolled out and asked for his opinion on the topic.
And of course all those people are going to defend superhero movies they all make bank on them and it is their work.
And of course all those people are going to defend superhero movies they all make bank on them and it is their work.
Using "cinema" in that context was a poor choice of words, and I think undercut what Scorsese was trying to say.
But holy shit, the amount of vitriol and anger directed at Scorsese for basically going "eh, not for me, but I can see why people like it" is fucking embarrassing.
But holy shit, the amount of vitriol and anger directed at Scorsese for basically going "eh, not for me, but I can see why people like it" is fucking embarrassing.
All of this is so ridiculous. The guy is like 80 years old. I tried to get my dad to watch Fast and Furious and Mission Impossible 2 when he was 50, and after they finished, he told me never to put him through that hell again. He loved Spy Games which came out around the same time. When you get to a certain age, you are not going to enjoy or want to watch movies made for kids.
I am not going to blame Marvel for wanting to adapt these comic books true to the comics. They have done a fantastic job telling a story that took 20 movies to tell. They ended it brilliantly. But after watching the Joker its obvious how different End Game feels compared to a real movie. And thats not an insult to End Game or Batman Vs Superman or X-Men, it's simply not what they set out to do. Logan is another similar movie. It felt raw and powerful.
James Gunn is held to this insanely high standard on this board, but i thought Guardians was the most shallow Marvel movie by far. The characters are all one dimensional. they have personality but no substance. the writer goes out of its way to make jokes instead of explore the characters. Rocket Raccoon has a fantastic little monologue in the first movie that ultimately goes nowhere. and thats the problem with their movies, they do have good ideas, but they just dont do anything with them. Black Panther tries to tackle some very sensitive themes but it discards them midway through the story and turns into a fantasy action flick. The Winter Soldier has a great scene where Cap tells Fury that spying on americans isnt patriotic its fear. perfect timing to tackle that subject since it was during the whole Snowden leak but they do nothing with it. it goes from Cap discussing this moral grey area to a simple story about hydra taking over shield and just like that any moral ambiguity gets thrown out the window. Civil war goes from opposing ideas to your bff killed my mom. its all so fucking basic. no different than you and mom have the same name! lets team up and take down that alien monster.
And tbh, i am fine with all of that. i loved all the stupid jokes in Guardians. I loved the airport fight in civil war. i loved thanos being the protagnist in infinity war and loved the portal scene in end game. i ate that shit up. but im in my 30s and this is the first time im watching these superheros i grew up with. when my teenage son comes to me and tells me to watch Avengers 7 in 20 years, i will tell him what my dad told me... 'im too old for this shit... have you seen the dark knight?'
I am not going to blame Marvel for wanting to adapt these comic books true to the comics. They have done a fantastic job telling a story that took 20 movies to tell. They ended it brilliantly. But after watching the Joker its obvious how different End Game feels compared to a real movie. And thats not an insult to End Game or Batman Vs Superman or X-Men, it's simply not what they set out to do. Logan is another similar movie. It felt raw and powerful.
James Gunn is held to this insanely high standard on this board, but i thought Guardians was the most shallow Marvel movie by far. The characters are all one dimensional. they have personality but no substance. the writer goes out of its way to make jokes instead of explore the characters. Rocket Raccoon has a fantastic little monologue in the first movie that ultimately goes nowhere. and thats the problem with their movies, they do have good ideas, but they just dont do anything with them. Black Panther tries to tackle some very sensitive themes but it discards them midway through the story and turns into a fantasy action flick. The Winter Soldier has a great scene where Cap tells Fury that spying on americans isnt patriotic its fear. perfect timing to tackle that subject since it was during the whole Snowden leak but they do nothing with it. it goes from Cap discussing this moral grey area to a simple story about hydra taking over shield and just like that any moral ambiguity gets thrown out the window. Civil war goes from opposing ideas to your bff killed my mom. its all so fucking basic. no different than you and mom have the same name! lets team up and take down that alien monster.
And tbh, i am fine with all of that. i loved all the stupid jokes in Guardians. I loved the airport fight in civil war. i loved thanos being the protagnist in infinity war and loved the portal scene in end game. i ate that shit up. but im in my 30s and this is the first time im watching these superheros i grew up with. when my teenage son comes to me and tells me to watch Avengers 7 in 20 years, i will tell him what my dad told me... 'im too old for this shit... have you seen the dark knight?'
You can't do that, you're gatekeeping the people who want to gatekeep. Now what about all those pretentious assholes who want to use kino to talk about how their entertainment is so much better than yours? They're just going to feel silly so you should apologize.
Exactly. You can say you don't like a film/you don't consider the films entertaining without trying to redefine what a film is or isn't.
Sure, it's fine to disagree with him but the name calling and attempts at discrediting his work in the last thread was really poor behaviour.
I wouldn't consider The Departed Cinema either, especially when compared to Internal Affairs.
Honestly, everyone's entitled to their opinion, it's one thing to say that film X is something someone doesn't care for, but discounting their status and acting like they're lesser because it's not their cup of tea is just bull.
I've seen thousands of films, and pretty much every single entry in Scorcese's all time favourite film list, I still wouldn't dare to say Film X doesn't deserve to be counted as Cinema.
Honestly, everyone's entitled to their opinion, it's one thing to say that film X is something someone doesn't care for, but discounting their status and acting like they're lesser because it's not their cup of tea is just bull.
I've seen thousands of films, and pretty much every single entry in Scorcese's all time favourite film list, I still wouldn't dare to say Film X doesn't deserve to be counted as Cinema.
Gatekeeping in a sense he stops MCU fans from having a religious erection whenever we're touched by MCU's grand artistic ambition. Very sad.
Thanks for reminding me of that movie.
Film as an art form was a a mistake.
That's a definition of gatekeeping that could be applied to any negative criticism of a phenomenon, especially when he is criticizing the most popular, marketed, pushed product of cinema in the last decade. Any critic who feels poorly about a movie is 'trying to separate them from the rest of movies', and it's a natural tool for film criticism. Without it we're all singing kumbaya in passive praise to whatever's popular. Kicking upwards is needed, regardless of what we think of the quality of individual MCU movies. I like several of them, and I've never loved Scorcese's filmography, but I know he cares deeply about movies, and I welcome any dissenting views on these monolithic productions from other people in the business, because at least it means there's still a variety of perspectives in there.
These comments are all the same - "I love Marty as an artist, I don't agree with him, I'm not giving you the outraged soundbyte you want for clicks."
You guys make it sound like he went on a podium and announced in front of the whole world that Marvel movies weren't considered cinema. No, it was a casual interview when someone specifically asked him what he thought of it. He wasn't trying to convince anybody. The problem is that you read his statement and think he's talking directly to you or something.
They could have been jerks and said 'Scorcese is cinema, but he caters to a niche crowd. Talk to me when you have the highest grossing movie in theatre'
But they arent jerks.
"..and you know what, rap music isnt real music either. They should call it rap talking!"
But they arent jerks.
"..and you know what, rap music isnt real music either. They should call it rap talking!"
Yea, it's gotten out of hand, but that comes with the territory of using commercial products of any variety as a substitute for a piece of your personality.
All this clickbait and fanboy driven soundbyte journalism is more of an affront to artists and their work than anything Marty said
The problem as usual is people (Scorsese in this case) thinking that "art" or "cinema" are automatically good. They're not good, they're just things. Art and cinema can both be shit, or bland, or great. Marvel is mediocre cinema that performs very well as a thrill ride. Should be simple as that.
His own ego was out of control when he said what he did.
Areogrant nonsense, and I don't even care who he targeted. Saying thay about any film is stupid.
How else am I supposed to define myself as a person though? Introspective thought?
Nah man, I got Mickey Mouse to give me self fulfillment.
He's not even the first filmmaker to say something similar. This to me seems like media journalists trying to create drama so they can write more awful stories.
"Superhero movies aren't cinema" feels like the equivalent of "'Walking simulators' aren't real games" to me.
And while neither statement literally bars someone from doing something it still feels like a form of conceptual gatekeeping. It's a negative assessment of their worth either way even if made in glib passing.
And while neither statement literally bars someone from doing something it still feels like a form of conceptual gatekeeping. It's a negative assessment of their worth either way even if made in glib passing.
What an arrogant elitist thing to say. Go back to your boring, slow movies nobody else watches (they are probably in black and white, lol! And they won't fill a 16:9 screen with their weird aspect ratios. Waste of space!). Marvel has the highest grossing movie of all time and higher rotten tomato scores than a lot of of the so-called cinema movies. I feel sad for you if you didn't have goosebumps when Cap said "Avengers assemble", that's transcending!
I'm not a MCU defender by any means... I normally snark at bad takes people make at Marvel.
But MCU movies are still cinema. They're just not high art... or very good in a lot of cases. But at the same time, I understand where he's coming from.
It's just like Hip Hop; there's the bounce your ass trash for the clubs and parties, and then there's cerebral, artful, hip hop. One makes more money than the other, and most people will opt for the former.
But MCU movies are still cinema. They're just not high art... or very good in a lot of cases. But at the same time, I understand where he's coming from.
It's just like Hip Hop; there's the bounce your ass trash for the clubs and parties, and then there's cerebral, artful, hip hop. One makes more money than the other, and most people will opt for the former.
This comment has really opened up a lot more energy for discussion than it deserved.
Marvel aren't trying to be cinema. They're jokey hero movies, come on.
Marvel aren't trying to be cinema. They're jokey hero movies, come on.
I decided to pursue a career as an Avenger thanks to that moment. It changed my life.
Was this before or after one of his pagan snake cult ceremonies? He is one of true legends of comics but he also spends his time on shit that is even sillier than superhero's. Grain of salt and all.