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kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,533
California
The fact that there's only this much of a difference has me wondering why game developers even want to be in San Francisco. I feel as though you could do so much more with $10k elsewhere than you could with $16k in San Francisco. I'd like to see more tech companies setting up home in other areas that need more development in general, though.
 

Polyh3dron

Prophet of Regret
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,860
The San Francisco Bay Area tech industry bubble burst is well past due. It'll happen. This is what happens when the CEOs and shareholders hoard all the profits for themselves and pay the actual producers of their content peanuts.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,748
Even the film industry is beginning to abandon California and Hollywood in favor of Georgia. I'm not surprised this kind of effect is beginning to ripple into video games.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,896
Yeah, Im a gamedev in the Bay Area. Been here for 5 years and Im here to give you some FUN FACTS:

-Silicon Valley salaries have fucked everything up. 2 bedrooms can go up for 3-4k a month and new employees at Google who make 100k+ a year routinely room together and snap those places up

-Insurance costs are insane, if you make an average Bay Area tech salary you're making arond 90k or more, but the rent is extremely high so you dont have that much money leftover. If you're a freelancer in the area and are married you are looking at $600 a month just for bottom of the barrel ACA coverage

-Big companies in the F2P space make a lot more money than the AAA console places. They pay more, have better perks and more stability since they bring in 100k to a million a day

-Lets talk perks, actually! Because Google set the precedent, a lot of companies spend a TON of money per employee on extra shit: free drinks, free snacks, catered lunches everyday or 2/3 times a week, free yoga, top of the line equipment, UNLIMITED vacation (yep), bonus rewards per year, etc etc and these are just the STANDARD just to make your company attractive to a potential employee

-Since giant companies keep moving in and hiring really expensive tech employees and data analysts who make from 100k to 160k, most towns around the bay or in the city are encouraged to raise rent to ridiculous numbers and are rewarded for doing so. A decent 2 bedroom house in a town like San Bruno costs about 750k if you want to buy

-And if thats how much housing costs, imagine the rent costs of a game studio to have 100 people, or the campus costs at EA Redwood or Machine Zone. Most companies without a top 100 grossing title go under because of rent costs

-If you're making a game for console with no clear monetization scheme and you wont see any money back for at least 4 years its a GIANT RISK, especially when a 30 person studio accross the street is bring half a million on the app store with a reskin of a puzzle game they made in 6 months. Its a miracle games get made here.
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,558
The fact that there's only this much of a difference has me wondering why game developers even want to be in San Francisco. I feel as though you could do so much more with $10k elsewhere than you could with $16k in San Francisco. I'd like to see more tech companies setting up home in other areas that need more development in general, though.

It's not just about numbers. Some companies and employees just like living in the bay area for a host of reasons. If it were numbers alone, they could end up in a lot of rural places that aren't expensive at all.

Even the film industry is beginning to abandon California and Hollywood in favor of Georgia. I'm not surprised this kind of effect is beginning to ripple into video games.

Though if Georgia passes an anti-trans bathroom bill like they've been threatening to do, plenty of studios have said they're more than happy to pull out of their plans to be the Hollywood of the South. Marvel has outright said that they'll leave completely and not come back.
 

KeyboardThug

Member
Oct 27, 2017
286
And this is why I decided not to be a game developer. All risk very little reward for a company/employee. Website development is where it is at. Very little stress with a great salary/benefits.

Yeah, Im a gamedev in the Bay Area. Been here for 5 years and Im here to give you some FUN FACTS:

-Silicon Valley salaries have fucked everything up. 2 bedrooms can go up for 3-4k a month and new employees at Google who make 100k+ a year routinely room together and snap those places up

-Insurance costs are insane, if you make an average Bay Area tech salary you're making arond 90k or more, but the rent is extremely high so you dont have that much money leftover. If you're a freelancer in the area and are married you are looking at $600 a month just for bottom of the barrel ACA coverage

-Big companies in the F2P space make a lot more money than the AAA console places. They pay more, have better perks and more stability since they bring in 100k to a million a day

-Lets talk perks, actually! Because Google set the precedent, a lot of companies spend a TON of money per employee on extra shit: free drinks, free snacks, catered lunches everyday or 2/3 times a week, free yoga, top of the line equipment, UNLIMITED vacation (yep), bonus rewards per year, etc etc and these are just the STANDARD just to make your company attractive to a potential employee

-Since giant companies keep moving in and hiring really expensive tech employees and data analysts who make from 100k to 160k, most towns around the bay or in the city are encouraged to raise rent to ridiculous numbers and are rewarded for doing so. A decent 2 bedroom house in a town like San Bruno costs about 750k if you want to buy

-And if thats how much housing costs, imagine the rent costs of a game studio to have 100 people, or the campus costs at EA Redwood or Machine Zone. Most companies without a top 100 grossing title go under because of rent costs

-If you're making a game for console with no clear monetization scheme and you wont see any money back for at least 4 years its a GIANT RISK, especially when a 30 person studio accross the street is bring half a million on the app store with a reskin of a puzzle game they made in 6 months. Its a miracle games get made here.

Wow that sounds like hell.
 

Mathieran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,857
AAA can't be done remotely. It takes a herculean amount of coordination between multiple large studios to pull off many of the releases coming out today...I can't even imagine the logistical nightmare that would ensue if it were any more fragmented.

Sorry, forgive my ignorance. I figured since a lot of studios seem to work remotely it would be feasible.
 

kaf

Technical Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
104
Sorry, forgive my ignorance. I figured since a lot of studios seem to work remotely it would be feasible.

Work has definitely spread out more - while not 'truly' remote, there are different studios that collaborate (UbiSoft has championed this approach pretty well).

For a lot of AAA and larger scale games, there is definitely a heavier reliance on external studios in Europe and Asia to help out with art assets or engineering work as well. This helps offset the workloads and also can (and is) a cost benefit. Experienced folks on both art, design and engineering can also work remote if they are seen to be valued high enough - I've worked with random folks in all disciplines and sometimes never even knew they were in Texas or Colorado until I tried to actually find out where they sat.

But being in a physical office allows for better problem solving, communication, motivation etc. And when some studios are super tight on security, it can sometimes be the only option.
 

CarlosX360

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
73
California
So I feel that people are misunderstanding the issue here and that in fact closing Visceral didn't actually close the office Visceral was operating out of.

Visceral was working out of Redwood City, CA which is close to San Francisco but not SF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visceral_Games


EA Redwood Shores is still very much active and hiring as per their careers page I linked.

The cost of employees is virtually the same in Redwood City as it would be in SF, though they might pay 10-15% more depending on the role in SF.

Closing Visceral because of employee costs is not the reason, otherwise they would have shut down the whole office/studio.

I live in the east bay and work in SF. It is an expensive area but the reason companies are here is not because they like to spend a lot on their employees and real estate, but because this is where most of the talent is. It is hard to get people to move here, but there is a critical mass of talent. There is a bit of virtuous cycle going on, companies founded here, employees move, more talent here, companies found here because there is more talent, more employees move, more companies and so on.

It is insane, I don't like the cost, but it is a great area and I enjoy it. Thinking about moving back to my home town feels depressing a bit other than having my family closer by.
To build on this post: EA's Redwood Shores location is not really in Redwood City, it's actually adjacent to San Carlos, which is next to Redwood City. Many companies in this area call their company a "San Francisco" company, this is because they want to attract the Silicon Valley investors. That's why EA has the corporate HQ there, rather than San Mateo. Everywhere in the San Francisco's Peninsula is full of investors, entrepreneurs, kids, teenagers, adults, people with family, the works. The Rich, the mother fucking person with a big mansion. Yeah, the works. That's why corporations want to stay here, rather than "moving."

Visceral's situation is more like "on paper, the corporation's location is over there, but it's operating here in our HQ." That's why the executive's position is so easy. "Fuck it, let's shut down this team." They don't see the long term viability of the company, that's because they don't have the vision to do this. Star Wars with a Uncharted twist? Sign me the fuck up.
 

Giolon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,080
San Fransico is the only city I have seen multiple people using the street as a toilet. If you want to live in a neighborhood that isn't a crapper it costs a fortune. Great town otherwise but yeah....to live well its a struggle.
Yeah, SF these days is kind of terrible. The rest of the Bay Area can be alright (I've been here for about 15 years now), and most game devs aren't actually in SF. They're in Menlo Park, Redwood City, Foster City, etc. I work in the same building as the Sledgehammer guys, and they're super easy to spot compared to all of us other "regular" tech company office workers. XD

Yeah, Im a gamedev in the Bay Area. Been here for 5 years and Im here to give you some FUN FACTS:
-Lets talk perks, actually! Because Google set the precedent, a lot of companies spend a TON of money per employee on extra shit: free drinks, free snacks, catered lunches everyday or 2/3 times a week, free yoga, top of the line equipment, UNLIMITED vacation (yep), bonus rewards per year, etc etc and these are just the STANDARD just to make your company attractive to a potential employee
The thing about the unlimited vacation perk, is it sounds great on paper, but a lot of companies have internal environments that discourage or actively punish people who do take vacation time. It often leads to people working more and just never going on vacation because they feel like they can't or will be overlooked come promotion time because they decided they needed a little time off. I look at "unlimited vacation" as "trap!"

-Since giant companies keep moving in and hiring really expensive tech employees and data analysts who make from 100k to 160k, most towns around the bay or in the city are encouraged to raise rent to ridiculous numbers and are rewarded for doing so. A decent 2 bedroom house in a town like San Bruno costs about 750k if you want to buy
IDK the last time you checked but San Bruno housing is pushing like $850-$900k these days... T.T

To build on this post: EA's Redwood Shores location is not really in Redwood City, it's actually adjacent to San Carlos, which is next to Redwood City. Many companies in this area call their company a "San Francisco" company, this is because they want to attract the Silicon Valley investors. That's why EA has the corporate HQ there, rather than San Mateo. Everywhere in the San Francisco's Peninsula is full of investors, entrepreneurs, kids, teenagers, adults, people with family, the works. The Rich, the mother fucking person with a big mansion. Yeah, the works. That's why corporations want to stay here, rather than "moving."

Visceral's situation is more like "on paper, the corporation's location is over there, but it's operating here in our HQ." That's why the executive's position is so easy. "Fuck it, let's shut down this team." They don't see the long term viability of the company, that's because they don't have the vision to do this. Star Wars with a Uncharted twist? Sign me the fuck up.

Redwood Shores is actually addressed as part of Redwood City, even though geographically it's more adjacent to San Carlos than RWC proper. I know, it's weird. San Mateo and Foster City have some messed up borders too.
 

IronRaven

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14
As someone who's lived his entire life in the Bay Area, that sounds about right. Things are only getting worse when it comes to things like rent/housing.
 

Parham

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
295
So I feel that people are misunderstanding the issue here and that in fact closing Visceral didn't actually close the office Visceral was operating out of.

Visceral was working out of Redwood City, CA which is close to San Francisco but not SF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visceral_Games


EA Redwood Shores is still very much active and hiring as per their careers page I linked.

The cost of employees is virtually the same in Redwood City as it would be in SF, though they might pay 10-15% more depending on the role in SF.

Closing Visceral because of employee costs is not the reason, otherwise they would have shut down the whole office/studio.

I think there's some truth to what you're saying about the absolute cost of operating in Redwood City. Though, what I would add is EA probably saw much greater returns from their investment in Redwood Shores than Visceral. The cost of operating in the Bay Area is a factor, but only tells half the story.
 

chapel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
298
I think there's some truth to what you're saying about the absolute cost of operating in Redwood City. Though, what I would add is EA probably saw much greater returns from their investment in Redwood Shores than Visceral. The cost of operating in the Bay Area is a factor, but only tells half the story.
Visceral the studio was originally named EA Redwood Stores and then renamed to Visceral. The campus itself is still named that, but there are multiple studios and subdivisions operating there.

I'd say that money was a factor but not just because it was the Bay Area, probably due to an internal issue with that team where it wasn't delivering and they couldn't recover it.

Maybe they will shut down that campus, or just use it for roles that are more in demand. I have no idea.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
Believe me when I tell you that the provinces in Canada are catching wise to Montreal's model of boosting skilled labor via the games industry. Prince Edward Island has recently made a big push offering a specific tax credit towards video game industry labor and putting in post-secondary programs to boost their labor force in that market, which is starting to attract the attention of several big publishers, as the cost of living in Charlottetown is even lower than Montreal.
 
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Ωλ7XL9

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,250
Not surprised by the high operating costs to keep video game studios solvent in a place like SFO, cost of living is off the roof. One of my buddy's contact who works at google as a developer says he spends $3000 for a single bed apartment for rent every month. Also another thing to point out, not everyone is paid $16K in games, developers-engineers-programmers are paid the most, followed by designers. Artist and Animators are paid average with QA being the lowest.

Salaries in $ (USD)
Average
Min
Max
Senior Environment Artist
3 salaries
$93,000 per year
$86k
$101k
Producer
2 salaries
About $101k - $118k
$101k
$118k
QA Lead - Hourly
2 salaries
About $19 - $22 hourly
$19
$22
Is this helpful? The community relies on everyone sharing – Add Anonymous Salary

Senior Artist
2 salaries
About $52k - $96k
$52k
$96k


Character Artist
2 salaries
About $74k - $93k
$74k
$93k
Environment Artist - Hourly
1 employee salary or estimate
About $37 - $40 hourly
$37
$40
Environment Artist
1 employee salary or estimate
About $67k - $73k
$67k
$73k
Environment Artist - Hourly Contractor
1 employee salary or estimate
About $33 - $36 hourly
$33
$36
3D Artist - Hourly Contractor
1 employee salary or estimate
About $44 - $47 hourly
$44
$47
Associate Concept Artist - Hourly
1 employee salary or estimate
About $24 - $26 hourly
$24
$26
QA Analyst - Hourly Contractor
1 employee salary or estimate
About $15 - $16 hourly
$15
$16
Associate Software Engineer - Hourly
1 employee salary or estimate
About $30 - $32 hourly
$30
$32
Software Engineer - Hourly
1 employee salary or estimate
About $33 - $36 hourly
$33
$36
Senior Software Engineer
1 employee salary or estimate
About $116k - $125k
$116k
$125k
Artist - Hourly
1 employee salary or estimate
About $27 - $29 hourly
$27
$29

Modeler - Hourly Contractor
1 employee salary or estimate
About $25 - $27 hourly
$25
$27
Animator - Hourly
1 employee salary or estimate
About $27 - $29 hourly
$27
$29
Assistant Designer - Hourly Contractor
1 employee salary or estimate
About $19 - $21 hourly
$19
$21
Is this helpful? The community relies on everyone sharing – Add Anonymous Salary

Office Manager
1 employee salary or estimate
About $58k - $62k
$58k
$62k

Na - Hourly
1 employee salary or estimate
About $43 - $47 hourly
$43
$47
Sound Designer - Hourly
1 employee salary or estimate
About $24 - $26 hourly
$24
$26
Executive Producer
1 employee salary or estimate
About $146k - $158k
$146k
$158k
Senior Vfx Artist
1 employee salary or estimate
About $111k - $119k
$111k
$119k
California
1 employee salary or estimate
About $48k - $52k
$48k
$52k
Associate Technical Artist
1 employee salary or estimate
About $62k - $67k
$62k
$67k
3D Artist
1 employee salary or estimate
About $62k - $67k
$62k
$67k
Associate Concept Artist
1 employee salary or estimate
About $65k - $71k
$65k
$71k
Senior Character Artist
1 employee salary or estimate
About $96k - $106k
$96k
$106k
Senior Audio Engineer
1 employee salary or estimate
About $54k - $59k
$54k
$59k
Associate Animator
1 employee salary or estimate
About $58k - $63k
$58k
$63k

The above is from glassdoor info on salaries that Sledgehammer Games employees get: https://www.glassdoor.co.in/Salary/Sledgehammer-Games-Salaries-E721865_P2.htm
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
lightning2k3 that is understandable but we're always hearing about how cutthroat games development is and how there's so much competition. Surely there's a sizeable portion of the developer workforce that would be willing to relocate for a job?
 

SkyMasterson

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,001
The fact that there's only this much of a difference has me wondering why game developers even want to be in San Francisco. I feel as though you could do so much more with $10k elsewhere than you could with $16k in San Francisco. I'd like to see more tech companies setting up home in other areas that need more development in general, though.

Yea, I was always pretty confused on why some companies insist on setting up shop in SF.

Makes you wonder if Visceral would still be around if it weren't for that.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,859
That's why a lot of publisher got their big studios in Canada.
WB Montreal, Square Enix Montreal, Ubisoft has like 5 studios in Canada?

I really want to know the cost of DICE and MachineGames to EA and Bethesda, Sweden is expensive, a lot.
 

Kalamoj

Member
Oct 28, 2017
532
Europe
Wow, thats insane.
Wonder how much Witcher 3 would cost there.

My company also set up 'hubs' around the world in fancy locations to attract talent, but I wonder where will be the point when the high cost of livin will drive off people.
 

Parham

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
295
Visceral the studio was originally named EA Redwood Stores and then renamed to Visceral. The campus itself is still named that, but there are multiple studios and subdivisions operating there.

I'd say that money was a factor but not just because it was the Bay Area, probably due to an internal issue with that team where it wasn't delivering and they couldn't recover it.

Maybe they will shut down that campus, or just use it for roles that are more in demand. I have no idea.

Right, when I'm referring to Redwood Shores, I'm talking about the non-Visceral teams. As far as I can tell from the job listings, most of the openings are related to EA Mobile and Maxis.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,896
Yeah EARS has always been EARS and they have a lot of teams working on a lot of things. Once the narrative about Dead Space was publicized (rogue team making their game in secret! ... which btw was not quite that) did they brand the team as its own "studio" and eventually their own building too, I think.

I was working for EA at the time and was slated to work on the first Dead Space game so the memory is still vivid, haha
 

chapel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
298
Parham yeah that was what I saw as well.

Raging Spaniard great point, I didn't know they had a separate building even, I wonder if they are keeping the building and using it for other things re got rid of that as well. What did you end up working on instead?
 

ZugZug123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,412
Live around SF, cost of living is insane and you are competing with the likes of Google and Facebook for young tech talent. If I were a game company I would bail out too. There are other nice metro areas that are close to good universities and not as expensive.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,896
aging Spaniard great point, I didn't know they had a separate building even, I wonder if they are keeping the building and using it for other things re got rid of that as well. What did you end up working on instead?
I doubt they owned the building, probably rented the floors they needed. If the lease is up theyll just leave, if it isnt they can probably sublet it or move another team in.

I was part of a sub studio that was going to help with env art but at the last minuto we got the Hasbro and we shifted focus to that (siiigh)
 

AnimalFather

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
324
or you can go to india and pay 1/20th of that. i've always been curious why EA hasn't moved their development HQ to india.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,896
or you can go to india and pay 1/20th of that. i've always been curious why EA hasn't moved their development HQ to india.

I thought this was sarcasm, but just in case:

-Nobody would move to India, you would lose all your talent. For a bit EA wanted Salt Lake Lake to be the next big hub and nobody wanted to move there so imagine a 3rd world country
-Indian talent in gamedev is not even close to the standard you need for todays AAA landscape. They dont have the training, experience or capability.
 

AnimalFather

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
324
I thought this was sarcasm, but just in case:

-Nobody would move to India, you would lose all your talent. For a bit EA wanted Salt Lake Lake to be the next big hub and nobody wanted to move there so imagine a 3rd world country
-Indian talent in gamedev is not even close to the standard you need for todays AAA landscape. They dont have the training, experience or capability.

I just don't see how much "talent" you would need to reiterate fifa or madden, im sure india could handle it..

also please check your microaggressions, india is not some poor third world country.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,896
I just dont see how much talent you would need to reiterate fifa or madden i mean im sure india could handle it..
I have worked for EA sports games AND worked with India based teams and I am telling you in the nicest possible way that there is a big chance you have never been more wrong in your life about anything
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
or you can go to india and pay 1/20th of that. i've always been curious why EA hasn't moved their development HQ to india.

Disregarding any of the points already mentioned, it's because India doesn't have any focus on that industry. Government plays a huge part in what industries flourish or not (hence why Montreal is such a big focal point for gaming right now) and I haven't seen anything coming out of India or its government that suggests that they want the games industry to operate within its borders.
 

Vilam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,053
Visceral didn't have their own building, they were up on the top floor of one of the EARS campus buildings. Maxis is right below them on the third floor of the same building.
 

t26

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,546
Not having to pay for health insurance in Canada probably makes a huge difference.
 
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tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,399
London is extremely expensive, Japan isn't nearly as bad. But Japan has a very bad work culture. The FFXV director said he would get about 3 hours of sleep per day, thats.....not good.

The thing about London is that cost-of-living is extremely high, but cost-of-labor for some of the key jobs in game development is substantially lower than it is in the US (and I mean the entire US, not just expensive areas like SF). That has been the case for a while, but the post-Brexit-vote decline in the GBP really took things to a new level.

- Software Engineering salaries in the US are more than double those of London.
- 3D Artist salaries are 75% higher.

And that is not accounting for the high price of employer-provided health insurance in the US.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,641
Frostbite had been challenging enough for Visceral during Hardline's development, and that was a Battlefield game. For Ragtag, Visceral would have to build key features from scratch. Like BioWare on Dragon Age and Mass Effect, Visceral found itself trying to make a third-person game on an engine built for first-person shooters. "It was missing a lot of tools, a lot of stuff that was in Uncharted 1," said a former employee. "It was going to be a year, or a year and a half's work just to get the engine to do things that are assumed and taken for granted."

On a slight tangent, one thing that has continued to stand out to me after reading this and Jason's reporting on DA & ME — is how much of an effect Frostbite has negatively had on their development. I know that eventually having an engine that all EA's studios can do as they please with, modify as they need to, distribute as they need to etc will be "worth it"... but I really have to wonder what some of their games with troubled dev histories could have turned out if they'd been made in say UE4 for example.

How many wouldn't have needed delays, wouldn't have needed to have crunched as bad as they did, would have been able to iterate more quickly, get the features they needed, and so on.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,896
i mean code monkeys with western creative leads would be a very cheap alternative...thats all im saying.
You might want to rethink the term code monkeys, its ... pretty offensive! Making ANY current gen game, even a sports game requires real work and real skill. Engineers in India, which I have worked extensively with, are not even close to proficient enough in videogames to be anywhere near a Fifa or Madden game, you are taking a lot of game development for granted.
 

Parham

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
295
i mean code monkeys with western creative leads would be a very cheap alternative...thats all im saying.
While outsourcing is common in the industry, it's highly unlikely you'll see an entire AAA project structured the way you're suggesting. Oftentimes the distance and timezone difference can significantly impact productivity. That's not even factoring in the availability of talent in those countries compared to North America and Europe.
 
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PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,494
I just don't see how much "talent" you would need to reiterate fifa or madden, im sure india could handle it..

Just because a game is annual or iterative, don't assume its development is free or effortless. It still takes a substantial amount of talent to put together, especially something as feature-rich as those sports games. There are systems on top of systems on top of systems in games that size. It's not something you just farm out to the lowest bidder and expect the same results.