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Tracygill

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,853
The Left
That is what Bernie is, he has yet to advocate for the seizure of production or for a collective society. Advocating for social safety nets, more benefits, and more regulation is not socialism.
"Bernie Sanders wants renewable energy to power U.S. homes and vehicles by 2030 -- and he wants to do it by enlisting the federal government in building and running new solar, wind and geothermal electricity projects. "


"Most proposals envision a transition away from coal and natural gas as electricity sources by mid century, if not earlier. Sanders' plan is more aggressive in seeking to reach that milestone by no later than 2030 -- and promising a complete, economy-wide decarbonization two decades later."


"Sanders would harness the resources of the U.S. government itself to generate renewable power that would be "publicly owned." Under his plan, the Bureau of Reclamation, the Tennessee Valley Authority and the federal power marketing administrations that now focus on hydropower would build wind, solar and geothermal installations, too. "


"The $16.3 trillion price tag -- which eclipses what many other Democratic candidates have proposed -- would pay for itself in 15 years, according to the Sanders campaign. "
Bernie Sanders Would Put the U.S. Government in the Wind Farm Business




"The differences are big, they're ideological — and they have consequences.


Here is Elizabeth Warren's plan for international climate adaptation and mitigation:


"…even if we reduce America's emissions so that they are net-zero by 2030, we will still fall far short of the reduction in global emissions needed to avert a climate crisis … Here's my plan for that: Invest $2 trillion over the next ten years in green research, manufacturing, and exporting — linking American innovation directly to American jobs, and helping achieve the ambitious targets of the Green New Deal."​


Here is the plan Bernie Sanders has proposed:


  • "Invest in the Green Climate Fund …. In order to help countries of the Global South with climate adaptation efforts, the U.S. will invest $200 billion in the Green Climate Fund for the equitable transfer of renewable technologies, climate adaptation, and assistance in adopting sustainable energies."
  • "Instead of accepting that the world's countries will spend $1.5 trillion annually on weapons of destruction, Bernie will …. Bring together the leaders of the major industrialized nations with the goal of using the trillions of dollars our nations spend on misguided wars and weapons of mass destruction to instead work together internationally to combat our climate crisis and take on the fossil fuel industry."


This is not some marginal or irrelevant difference. Warren's plan is centered around building a green export industry that will develop technologies and products and sell them to poor countries at a profit for US businesses. Sanders's plan is centered around taxing the rich and global demilitarization to secure the funds and then turning them over to the United Nations.


One plan is plainly grounded in Warren's faith in markets and promoted with the rhetoric of "economic patriotism." As I noted elsewhere, Warren's climate plans are also deliberately designed to accommodate US militarism.


The other plan expresses Sanders's skepticism in markets. His is the only plan that even begins to grapple with the magnitude of the international climate finance problem, and he does it, correctly, by positioning militarism and the fight against climate change directly at odds.


Naomi Klein has it right: the solution to the problem of international climate adaptation and mitigation is "what sets Bernie's [Green New Deal] apart … [it] doesn't confuse foisting made-in-the USA tech on the world [with] wealth redistribution."
-Carl Beijer
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
He isnt really wrong when it comes to their worldviews, and their bases actually show that, Sanders is more working class diverse, her's is more college educated whites. She has an element to her base who dont want to change too much but are threatened enough to throw a bone to the masses so they can stave off the pitchforks and can see Biden isnt someone worth supporting.

Warren is far more sympathetic to the current system as it exists than Sanders is in regards to their policies. Her persuasion is that she just needs to prod millionaires into doing the right thing with some specific policies(which may only solve a portion of the problem), while getting on the establishments good side.

I mean, she's been taking big corporate money for a long time, before she ran for president and ran on not doing so, and her foreign policy is pretty bad when it comes to democrats.

Personally, its as clear as saying she does not support single payer healthcare and is in favor of letting private insurance stay in existence.

Sanders is more of a "lets advocate for universal solutions that uproot the status quo of things" type of guy, someone who doesnt care if he makes enemies with the people he is criticizing.

They are both social democrats(of varying degrees), but when it comes to challenging the establishment which extolls the virtues of our crony capitalist system, Sanders does go much further than her in both his policy proposals and his rhetoric.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
The presidency isn't even Bernie's goal honestly. I don't think anyone who is a socialist holds that as their goal. It might be a quickening factor towards his goal, which is why he's running, but right now I believe he wants more than anything to normalize the discussion of socialism and remove it from being taboo, because if you don't, then political transformation that moves left becomes paralyzed and the country will continue shifting right.
People seem to think "we need to start a movement" is just his meaningless catchphrase
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,850
The reporter said you two are the same except she's younger and has a working heart.

Sanders says there are differences. Warren is a strident capitalist. I am not.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,014
This had far more to do with Sanders being sick durring the second debate than Warren doing anything to expose Sanders as a weak candidate. Sanders campaigning has been hobbled greatly by an undeniable media bias against him.

If that makes you roll your eyes, consider that outlets full stop photoshop images of him to look worse, or exclude his image from candidate graphics.
He been losing ground in polls pretty for a while now. Way before his illiness
 

Nerdkiller

Resettlement Advisor
Member
148120.jpg

149989.jpg

154994.jpg
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
I'm an actual socialist. Should I stop profiting from videos on GameXplain?

Yes. The only way you're not a hypocrite is if you're living in a cave on the mountains, sharing your socialist food with a herd of goats. And doing your work by communal carrier pigeons so as not to use a smart phone.

/s
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,850
I wish people would stop portraying Warren is the same as Sanders ideologically.

I guess it's useful for her to defend from attacks on the left. Just mirror his policies with enough wiggle room to cut out space for "stakeholders" once Sanders drops out.
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,850
Yes. The only way you're not a hypocrite is if you're living in a cave on the mountains, sharing your socialist food with a herd of goats. And doing your work by communal carrier pigeons so as not to use a smart phone.

/s
Politics is only about hypocrisy when you want the other side to shut up.
 
OP
OP

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
Yes. The only way you're not a hypocrite is if you're living in a cave on the mountains, sharing your socialist food with a herd of goats. And doing your work by communal carrier pigeons so as not to use a smart phone.

/s

I actually wouldn't mind doing that...for a few days, haha
 

Ottaro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,523
Some of yall get so caught up in your feelings with the most harmless shit Bernie says.

He's not even saying he is not a capitalist or that he is a socialist. He is saying that warren believes ultimately all solutions can be found in the capitalist framework, whereas he might think some are and maybe some aren't. He's not even saying anything here worth reacting to but yall react like he should vanish and never speak again.
 
Bernie's views on Socialism
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brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
I think these points from this Politico article say everything about Bernie's affinity to socialism that you need to know:

2. In Vermont Affairs: "… I certainly did not know what the word socialism meant growing up, because I was brought up in a very nonpolitical family. My brother was somewhat active, but my parents were not. But I think some people tend not to accept what almost everybody has accepted as true. Many people go to school, but most of them don't challenge the basic assumptions of their teachers or of the system. And I always have. You reach a certain age when you start reading reasonably widely, and you find ideas that reflect your gut feeling about something. I think that's usually the process — you find what you're looking for. I had that feeling when I first read Eugene Debs, for example. If you read what Debs said about the goals of socialism, it's no different from what I've been saying — that all socialism is about is democracy."

3. From the 1988 dissertation of Steven Soifer, a professor of social work at the University of Memphis, who wrote about Sanders' time as mayor of Burlington: "What being a socialist means is … that you hold out … a vision of society where poverty is absolutely unnecessary, where international relations are not based on greed … but on cooperation … where human beings can own the means of production and work together rather than having to work as semi-slaves to other people who can hire and fire."

5. In a speech he gave at the National Committee for Independent Political Action in New York City on June 22, 1989, reprinted in the December 1989 issue of the socialist publication Monthly Review: "In Vermont, everybody knows that I am a socialist and that many people in our movement, not all, are socialists. And as often as not — and this is an interesting point that is the honest-to-God truth — what people will say is, 'I don't really know what socialism is, but if you're not a Democrat or a Republican, you're OK with me.' That's true. And I think there has been too much of a reluctance on the part of progressives and radicals to use the word 'socialism.'"

"I've stayed away from calling myself a socialist," Sanders said in the Boston Globe in the aftermath of his win in '81, "because I did not want to spend half my life explaining that I did not believe in the Soviet Union or in concentration camps."




He's a socialist who's being pragmatic about the fact that he can't be a straight socialist and be president.
 

Double 0

Member
Nov 5, 2017
7,429
They are both social democrats, so this is really just him saying he leans more toward socialism than she does.

Which is true, and honestly, helps both of them for their perspective audiences.


Thing is, Warren has the wider appeal here.
 

CrazyDude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,727
"Bernie Sanders wants renewable energy to power U.S. homes and vehicles by 2030 -- and he wants to do it by enlisting the federal government in building and running new solar, wind and geothermal electricity projects. "


"Most proposals envision a transition away from coal and natural gas as electricity sources by mid century, if not earlier. Sanders' plan is more aggressive in seeking to reach that milestone by no later than 2030 -- and promising a complete, economy-wide decarbonization two decades later."


"Sanders would harness the resources of the U.S. government itself to generate renewable power that would be "publicly owned." Under his plan, the Bureau of Reclamation, the Tennessee Valley Authority and the federal power marketing administrations that now focus on hydropower would build wind, solar and geothermal installations, too. "


"The $16.3 trillion price tag -- which eclipses what many other Democratic candidates have proposed -- would pay for itself in 15 years, according to the Sanders campaign. "
Bernie Sanders Would Put the U.S. Government in the Wind Farm Business




"The differences are big, they're ideological — and they have consequences.


Here is Elizabeth Warren's plan for international climate adaptation and mitigation:


"…even if we reduce America's emissions so that they are net-zero by 2030, we will still fall far short of the reduction in global emissions needed to avert a climate crisis … Here's my plan for that: Invest $2 trillion over the next ten years in green research, manufacturing, and exporting — linking American innovation directly to American jobs, and helping achieve the ambitious targets of the Green New Deal."​


Here is the plan Bernie Sanders has proposed:


  • "Invest in the Green Climate Fund …. In order to help countries of the Global South with climate adaptation efforts, the U.S. will invest $200 billion in the Green Climate Fund for the equitable transfer of renewable technologies, climate adaptation, and assistance in adopting sustainable energies."
  • "Instead of accepting that the world's countries will spend $1.5 trillion annually on weapons of destruction, Bernie will …. Bring together the leaders of the major industrialized nations with the goal of using the trillions of dollars our nations spend on misguided wars and weapons of mass destruction to instead work together internationally to combat our climate crisis and take on the fossil fuel industry."


This is not some marginal or irrelevant difference. Warren's plan is centered around building a green export industry that will develop technologies and products and sell them to poor countries at a profit for US businesses. Sanders's plan is centered around taxing the rich and global demilitarization to secure the funds and then turning them over to the United Nations.


One plan is plainly grounded in Warren's faith in markets and promoted with the rhetoric of "economic patriotism." As I noted elsewhere, Warren's climate plans are also deliberately designed to accommodate US militarism.


The other plan expresses Sanders's skepticism in markets. His is the only plan that even begins to grapple with the magnitude of the international climate finance problem, and he does it, correctly, by positioning militarism and the fight against climate change directly at odds.


Naomi Klein has it right: the solution to the problem of international climate adaptation and mitigation is "what sets Bernie's [Green New Deal] apart … [it] doesn't confuse foisting made-in-the USA tech on the world [with] wealth redistribution."
-Carl Beijer
Bernie's plan is to naively believe the world governments are going to lay down their arms and spend money on whatever the U.S says? This is beyond naive and will never work. Do you really see India, China, Russia agreeing to this? 200 billion dollars to help developing nations go green is nothing and will do nothing to motivate those countries to do green. Bernie's plan is banking on the good faith of the rest of the world.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
He been losing ground in polls pretty for a while now. Way before his illiness


www.realclearpolitics.com

RealClearPolitics - Election 2020 - 2020 Democratic Presidential Nomination

RealClearPolitics - Election 2020 - 2020 Democratic Presidential Nomination

Aside from an initial dip after Harris, he was trading 2nd place with Warren just until after the sample range that coveted prior to the 2nd debate. Polling that partially covered the 2nd devate had him generally increasing. It wasn't until after the results of the 2nd debate came into focus that his numbers ranked.
 
OP
OP

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
Bernie's plan is to naively believe the world governments are going to lay down their arms and spend money on whatever the U.S says? This is beyond naive and will never work. Do you really see India, China, Russia agreeing to this? 200 billion dollars to help developing nations go green is nothing and will do nothing to motivate those countries to do green. Bernie's plan is banking on the good faith of the rest of the world.

Stawmen argument. The point isn't even that it is a better plan than Warren's, but there are elements of socialism there, obviously.
 

Gyro Zeppeli

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
Here are legitimate concerns about Warren:

-She voted for Ben Carson as the head of Urban Housing & Development.
-She voted for Trump's very expensive defense budget.
-She helped Raytheon, a major defense contractor, in her home state.
-Her waffling on Medicare For All, saying "there are many ways we can get there."
-She's said she will accept corporate money in the general election, if nominated.
 

Deleted member 51646

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 5, 2019
179
The title and framing of this thread is misleading, as is the ABC News article. The twitter video makes it clear that he didn't finally just decide to distinguish himself apropos of nothing, he was answering a very specific interview question about how they are different.
 

Deleted member 3896

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,815
Here are legitimate concerns about Warren:

-She voted for Ben Carson as the head of Urban Housing & Development.
-She voted for Trump's very expensive defense budget.
-She helped Raytheon, a major defense contractor, in her home state.
-Her waffling on Medicare For All, saying "there are many ways we can get there."
-She's said she will accept corporate money in the general election, if nominated.
Here are legitimate concerns about Sanders:

-He voted for Biden's crime bill
-He voted against the Brady Bill
-He voted to shield gun manufacturers
-He has staffed up with unprofessional trolls who frequently getting into petty social media squabbles and have been nod nod wink wink about doxxing people
-He would be the oldest president ever sworn in and has a history of heart disease
-His wife having been under FBI investigation for Burlington College land deals would be terrible baggage in a general
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
But with them he loses.
America is just not there yet, and Bernie HAS helped push us towards it, but this would be a generational change, not one that happens now

You and I know that, I'm skeptical he does. He's hitched his wagon to them and is riding them to the end because he hasn't made alliances that give him alternative support.
 

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995
Here are legitimate concerns about Sanders:

-He has staffed up with unprofessional trolls who frequently getting into petty social media squabbles and have been nod nod wink wink about doxxing people

Since he's already been through it once, so this is the disqualifier for me. If Donald Trump found more effective primary campaign staff...
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Here are legitimate concerns about Sanders:

-He voted for Biden's crime bill
-He voted against the Brady Bill
-He voted to shield gun manufacturers
-He has staffed up with unprofessional trolls who frequently getting into petty social media squabbles and have been nod nod wink wink about doxxing people
-He would be the oldest president ever sworn in and has a history of heart disease
-His wife having been under FBI investigation for Burlington College land deals would be terrible baggage in a general

Wasn't his think tank shady, too?
 

Gyro Zeppeli

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
Here are legitimate concerns about Sanders:

-He voted for Biden's crime bill
-He voted against the Brady Bill
-He voted to shield gun manufacturers
-He has staffed up with unprofessional trolls who frequently getting into petty social media squabbles and have been nod nod wink wink about doxxing people
-He would be the oldest president ever sworn in and has a history of heart disease
-His wife having been under FBI investigation for Burlington College land deals would be terrible baggage in a general

Those are fair criticisms, and it's up to the voters to decide what is more important to them obviously. To me, when comparing your concerns and mine, Warren's weigh more heavily, in respect to healthcare, accepting corporate money, and enabling the military industrial complex.
 

xbhaskarx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,143
NorCal
Wasn't his think tank shady, too?

Didn't some ridiculous percentage (like 20%?) of the money from Bernie's "think tank" (using quotes bc it didn't actually do anything) go to his son? Hunter Biden just made money off his famous/powerful relative's name like so many rich kids, but at least it was for an independent company and Joe wasn't directly funneling money to him...
 
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brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
And what is being publicly owned? Is government buying food aid and sending to to countries is not inherently socialistic, and neither is this. Government owning stuff and having services is not inherently socialistic.

State ownership (also called public ownership and government ownership) is the ownership of an industry, asset, or enterprise by the state or a public body representing a community as opposed to an individual or private party.[1] Public ownership specifically refers to industries selling goods and services to consumers and differs from public goods and government services financed out of a government's general budget.[2] Public ownership can take place at the national, regional, local, or municipal levels of government; or can refer to non-governmental public ownership vested in autonomous public enterprises. Public ownership is one of the three major forms of property ownership, differentiated from private, collective/cooperative, and common ownership.[3]


As for how it pertains to socialism:

In the context of socialism, public ownership implies that the surplus product generated by publicly owned assets accrues to all of society in the form of a social dividend, as opposed to a distinct class of private capital owners. There is a wide variety of organizational forms for state-run industry, ranging from specialized technocratic management to direct workers' self-management. In traditional conceptions of non-market socialism, public ownership is a tool to consolidate the means of production as a precursor to the establishment of economic planning for the allocation of resources between organizations, as required by government or by the state.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,669
They aren't really synonymous and yes, he's a Social Democrat (like Warren), regardless of what label he self-ascribes.
Most accurate post in thread. There are labels that people ascribe to themselves, and there are labels that more accurately describe these individuals based on the behaviors they exhibit and the policies they support. They are both clearly social democrats in that respect, with Bernie being marginally to the left of Warren.
 

Deleted member 3896

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,815
Those are fair criticisms, and it's up to the voters to decide what is more important to them obviously. To me, when comparing your concerns and mine, Warren's weigh more heavily, in respect to healthcare, accepting corporate money, and enabling the military industrial complex.

Lots more on his checkered relationship with the military industrial complex here:
 

Ecotic

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,408
Going forward, there needs to be some type of ruling body within the two major parties that can void candidates like Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul from running if their views are clearly far outside the party's current platform. These are third-party candidates attempting to hijack the main parties. Obviously it should be reserved for extraordinary circumstances, but openly espousing oneself as socialist when the party isn't a socialist party should have been disqualifying. The party owes it to its members to prevent a situation where a multitude of candidates running allows a fringe candidate to win the nomination with a minority of support.