Save stations in games should be removed .

[Dr.Ifto]

I loved Alien Isolation's one. It adds to the suspense and atmosphere. Getting to the save point was just as crucial as getting that ammo clip or distracting those humans/androids. The game did temp save though in between.

I do understand this though, I was playing a game recently, I think World of Final Fantasy and was like, this is a new game, why does it have save stations still.

 

[Freakzilla]

So basically games without consequence.

Click to shrink...

A dream come true. In TES games I have hundreds of saves.

 

[carlosrox]

Nah, I like them. They are also often accompanied by some cool in world stuff. Metroid's save stations are freakin' cool for example.

Dead Space's as well. Fuckin' great sound design on the save stations.




FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Autosave functions in horror games shave off so much of the tension felt while playing, imo. The fear of losing progress enhances the player's anxiety. That's how it should be.

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Yes, I agree. Having save points in horror games particularly adds to the tension as it adds the fear of losing progress. Auto-saves would really diminish that aspect.

 

[Deleted member 5028]

the fix to this problem is simple : use a autosave sytem that saves in the background instead of immersion breaking devices

Click to shrink...

Prince of Persia tried this a decade ago. I liked not seeing GAME OVER all the time. But people complained "you can't die" when really all that happens is they took out the reloading phase.

Dark Souls and bonfires is also a good example.

 

[LordOcidax]

Nop. SE are part of the game design, also the implementation on OG Resident Evil is glorious.

 

[Mikebison]

Different strokes for different folks. Different save methods for different games. Blanket statements like they should just go full stop can get in the bin.

As others have said, games like Alien and RE they add tension and consequence.
Other games like Dark Souls further still loop back into gameplay.
Some games absolutely need auto save and check pointing. Big open world RPG's for instance.

Totally happy leaving it the way it is and having the devs decide what saving method is right for each game. Then discuss it within the context of a particular title if there's something to like or dislike about the way it's done.

 

[Deleted member 4247]

But if you could save at any time a lot of tension would be removed from these games. Like if Souls allowed you to save (and reload) anywhere instead of only at bonfires (which basically work like save points). That would destroy what those games are going for.

So I think it's a case-by-case thing. Haven't played Isolation, but it sounds like it's used for a good reason there, similar to Souls.

 

[PoppaBK]

While I agree they are a little strange, there doesn't seem to be a better alternative. Manual saves lead to saving all the time, which breaks immersion more. Quicksaves need some kind of notification or they become annoying, they can also trap players in states that can make it almost impossible to progress.

 

[Rhaya]

I certainly prefer this. Let me determine how hard/easy I want to make my experience. Emulators >> the real hardware in this regard.

But I don't understand OP's point B. He's got only two points and point B would ALWAYS occur if the player were in control of their saves. So why even include that?

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i did say at the end that if manual saves are included they should be limited to prevent save scuming ( ex , only allow up to 3 saves per level )


and i still disagree that reaching Save stations should feel as a relieve and remove the threat of the alien .
Sure the game should have a few breathing room areas where you are genuinely safe but the threat of the alien should for the most part be constant . a physical save station removes that .

simple fix i feel is to remove the savepoints and replace them with an Autosave point that saves in the background once you enter the room those stations where in .

also just to be clear : i don't dislike the games , both Dead Space and A:Isolation are great games in my book but the way they handle saves annoys me .

 

[Dyle]

The main issue with save stations, that you couldn't save at any time if you had to get up and walk away from the tv, are largely taken care of via modern console sleep states, so on the whole I like them. Designing a game around them can lead to good feelings of tension/release.

 

[Frodo]

When I read the title I was like "but they work so well in horror games". Lo and behold, OP wants them gone from horror games.

I guess it is more about game design. If the game has save stations in key spots so you don't have to back track hours of gameplay it's completely fine. It doesn't work for all genres, though. Some games are better without it.

 

[Freakzilla]

Games like Alien and Deadspace are already terrifying enough. Not being to constantly save makes the tension too unbearable and unplayable for me.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

The whole point of save stations in horror games is to create tension because there is consequence for failure. There is no tension if killing you restarts you mere feet from where you were killed. For horror games to be successful, the player needs to feel like they're on guard and protecting something. Protecting their progress is the most successful way to do this because it adds real-world consequence to failure.

Save stations also provide a sense of relief when you arrive at them. Finding a typewriter in Resident Evil is essential to releasing the tension created beyond the room. It gives the player a moment to breathe and collect themselves so the tension can begin building again.

Surely you've noticed that almost every other game and genre has removed manual saves. This is fine. But keeping them in horror games is an explicit design decision that makes the game scarier. The only "horror" game that successfully implemented no saves was BioShock, which is not a straight horror game, and most "serious" players turn this feature off so they must manage their saves manually.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

Autosave functions in horror games shave off so much of the tension felt while playing, imo. The fear of losing progress enhances the player's anxiety. That's how it should be.

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I disagree, I think if anything they increase the anxiety (especially if it's a first play-through). I love the feeling that I might be so close to a save point, but I could also be another 5 minutes away from safety.

I felt the same with the bonfires in the Dark Souls series, it was such a relief to barely survive a difficult encounter only to turn the corner and see that beautiful unlit fire. So soothing.

Without save points it can become very frustrating if you get stuck at a particular area.

 

[Aniki]

But the constant tension is what makes Alien Isolation so great. You will never feel save in that game.

Also the physical save station does not remove the threat of the alien. Your are still in the world, vulnerable. Before and after you saved.

 

[Z..]

You're wrong. You're ESPECIALLY wrong for choosing horror games as the hill to let this opinion of yours die on and I'm glad most have already made sure you understand you are an outlier in this regard.
Also, immersion doesn't work like that for me. At all.

But I can understand why you would have the preferences you do.

I disagree, I think if anything they increase the anxiety (especially if it's a first play-through). I love the feeling that I might be so close to a save point, but I could also be another 5 minutes away from safety.

I felt the same with the bonfires in the Dark Souls series, it was such a relief to barely survive a difficult encounter only to turn the corner and see that beautiful unlit fire. So soothing.

Without save points it can become very frustrating if you get stuck at a particular area.

Click to shrink...

You're agreeing with the post you quoted, not disagreeing.

 

[TwinsUltra64]

Save station isn't a bad idea, Autosaves are a bad Idea, because the Autosaves save everytime a key event happend (It kills the sense of surprise).

 

[TwinsUltra64]

But why nobody complain about the annoying auto regenhealth, the waypoints, questmarkers? this feature kills the immersion of a game.

 

[preheatedbibby]

While I'd generally agree, I think that it is a core mechanic in metroidvania games. I'm not sure if they'd be the same without them!

 

[julia crawford]

I love save stations. Wish more games had them and did more cool stuff with them.

 

[SHAQ]

save scumming

Click to shrink...

What the hell?

Also I can't fully buy the immersion argument. I mean, it's a game no matter how engrossed you want to fall into it. You should view reaching the "station" like you would any other objective.

 

[Bashful Trey]

Save stations in Nier Automata are niiiiiiiice

 

[Chamaeleonx]

To me save stations or save points in general are a design element a developer may choose to add something to their game. They can be annoying but also be pretty amazing if implemented correctly. If you think of the Typewriter as a way for the protagonist write down their journey so far to keep it for somebody that may find it then it hardly breaks immersion. The only immersion break that happens is when you have a menu that isn't designed, etc. and takes you out of the atmosphere of the game.
Therefore I don't really have a problem with them as long as they are good designed, which isn't particular difficult in my eyes.

 

[Eriol]

they are fine for some kind of games, specially if they put it like a diary/typewriter, it does more inmersion than just an automatic save

 

[Rhaya]

What the hell?

Also I can't fully buy the immersion argument. I mean, it's a game no matter how engrossed you want to fall into it. You should view reaching the "station" like you would any other objective.

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Save scumming is an old term for saving the game before you attempt something that is hard to do in game or has a % chance to happen " modifier attached to it .

examples would be like saving after stealthily killing an enemy before moving on to the next and reload save if detected . or there is a chest that has 10% chance to drop a rare item so you save before opening it and reload if it is not dropping . repeat until success .

 

[-PXG-]

It induces stress on the player. "If I fuck up, I'll end up back at X". It's a mechanic to help you make informed decisions in dangerous environments. Being able to save anywhere, anytime, diminishes tension and undermines failure. Failure is means to teach the player what they did wrong so they can improve.

 

[Rhaya]

ignore

 

[Rhaya]

Ignore

 

[Truant]

The Vita Chambers in Bioshock were basically a huge spoiler for the twist ending, if you paid any attention to how they worked.

 

[Dust]

Not sure if I agree here, the thought of losing progress is as much vital to the experience as the gameplay itself. Quicksaves on PC often make most of games trivial and not exciting since you can even cheat RNG.

 

[Squareh00r]

Yeah, NieR Automata Save 'stations' were great. But I don't really see how other save points 'destroy' the immersion. I'm all okay with it.

 

[Rhaya]

The Vita Chambers in Bioshock were basically a huge spoiler for the twist ending, if you paid any attention to how they worked.

Click to shrink...

I found them borderline cheating since the world doesn't reset .
dead enemies are still dead and damage on enemies also stayed .
you could win any fight just by war of attrition.

 

[MuchiMuchiPink]

followed by a long ass saving process

Click to shrink...

But the problem here is not the concept of save points, but the PS3 save system it's still based on.

 

[decoyplatypus]

this creates 2 problems imo :

A) it causes you to fear losing your progress and having to do everything you did since your last save more then the actual constant threat of the Alien itself .

B) when you do finally get to the station you feel awesome and the thread of the alien is reduced to zero since even if he kills you 10 seconds later around the next corner you don't care since you just saved.[

Click to shrink...

These two things are precisely why they exist

The Alien would not be a threat if it would not actually do anything to you (as you even say yourself in your B) paragraph) and the emotional relieve and feel of joy of actually managing to get one would be robbed of you.

Click to shrink...

I agree with Hektor and others. The problems you describe here are a feature of savepoints, not a bug. The tension and release of searching for and finding a save point is a nice way to structure discrete challenges. Not every game needs to operate that way, but that's no reason to throw the system out entirely.

I'm also not persuaded that savepoints break immersion, but my concept of immersion may be a bit shallower. I can't remember ever forgetting that I was playing a game.

 

[ArmsofSleep]

I actually think save stations feel more immersive for me than quick saving or anything like that. Especially in horror games. Save rooms in Resident Evil feel entirely tied to the game's feel.

 

[Kongroo]

There are barely any modern games that do this so you pretty much already got your wish OP.

I think save stations are fine if it's a part of a game's design. Dead Space and Resident Evil do a great job with it.

 

[KnightimeX]

I disagree that save stations breaks immersion.
It doesn't to me anyways.
I can remained immersed even while saving.

 

[Geoff]

Agree with those who say that save points are an integral part of many horror games. You play from save to save, creeping round corners, fighting off enemies, desperately to conserve ammunition, knowing that if you fuck up, you've got to do it again. That creates tension, which is heightened by the generally scary atmosphere of the game. If you don't have that tension because you know the game saves each time you go through a door, there are no stakes and no feeling of relief as you spy the save point.

 

[adel]

What about when they are not immersion breaking. Like Nier: Automata, where it fits the narrative.

Click to shrink...

That's such a good example.

Why do people want video games to have the same systems?
Not all games supposed to have open world aspect, auto-save and rpg elements.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

I will never understand the "breaking immersion" argument. There is no point where I am not aware that I'm playing a game. It's a game, not a movie. Obviously things like breaking the fourth wall can be over the top, but a save station in a game is just so subtle to me.

 

[Ginta]

But the problem here is not the concept of save points, but the PS3 save system it's still based on.

Click to shrink...

Kiwami 2 will have fast save now then? Might skip K1, but those new additions seem to fun to pass.

 

[Bakercat]

I like them in certain games like rpgs where you know that you'll be playing for large amounts of time and it's really not an inconvince. Also, it's easy to fuck a save up in most rpgs, so having to manually save can help alleviate that problem. Imagine doing something stupid and wanting to rollback a save, but the game only auto saves all the time.

 

[fleeting]

I don't know, I enjoyed taking a breather in the save rooms of RE2:

 

[Gestault]

I think a save-point demands your attention to the game world in a way that just pausing and choosing "save game" never did, and a way that gives a different gameplay effect than just an auto-save ever could. In games where resources matter, you *want* the player to make the decision of when to "bank" or not.

I don't find it particularly immersion-breaking. It may be it's been such an integral part of some game design that I'm assuming I need it, but I also think more concretely that auto-saves and checkpoints can have their own subtle trade-offs, even in terms of immersion. Just having a safe moment to yourself in something like a save room (think RE) is part of the action arc.

I 100% disagree with OP, but great topic anyway! I hadn't thought about save stations in these terms for a long time.

 

[AllThingsPurple]

Auto saves are far worse than save stations. Save stations are an integral part of survival horror in my opinion, and both work well in the two games you mentioned.

Not only do they add a whole extra level of tension you also feel extreme sense of relief upon discovering a new save point.

 

[Strangelove_77]

What the fuck.

 

[mute]

They can definitely be done wrong, either by being too long or involved of a process, or being placed in not the best locations, but besides that I prefer save points to autosaves everywhere.

They chop the game up into separate subsections each with it's own set of challenges to get to the next point.

 

[Spiritual_Chaos]

No.

And the same regarding medkits.

All games using the regenerate-health system after Halo was so boring.

Saving whenever you wanted felt like cheating even in Doom and Duke 3D.

 

[Zoid]

Alien Isolation implemented save stations in the best way possible, I loved the extra layer of tension they added. It just depends on the game, save stations in Metroid games are also done well.