ScourgeBringer director shares interesting sales data about its performance compared to NeuroVoider

MauroNL · Jan 19, 2021

This Twitter thread by ScourgeBringer director Thomas Altenburger has some interesting charts and data about the game and their previous title NeuroVoider. It is worth pointing out that ScourgeBringer has a PC/Xbox Game Pass deal, which is likely the reason the Deals percentage is significantly higher. (GP deals tend to be a lump sum of cash before release.)

I promised you some stats on our 2 biggest titles (NeuroVoider and ScourgeBringer), which I believe can give you a good picture of how the industry and platforms have evolved over just 3 years. Here's the most requested stats: how does a launch perform on PC vs Nintendo Switch?

Here are our revenue sources per game and type of revenue (deals = bundles, prime gaming, game pass, etc.). Note that NV releases on more consoles than SB for the time being and that I don't have SB physical data yet.

I have more data on NV than SB, so we can look more closely at NV when it comes to units and how they compare with and without deals.

Here are the same data for SB but with cumulated consoles because the game hasn't released on as many platforms and is still pretty fresh on consoles (vs 6+ months in PC early access).

One last for fun, PC piracy rate.

Nugnip · Jan 19, 2021

What the fuck at this piracy chart. Come on, the game is like 15 bucks and on game pass. Fucking hell.

Deleted member 68874 · Jan 19, 2021

That PC pirating rate is insane.

Glad to see partnerships with services are really benefitting both developers and consumers. Gamepass and Prime Gaming seemed to have helped this game out a lot.

TheMoon · Jan 19, 2021

people still feel they need to get shit for absolutely free even with constant mega sales, bundles, and freebies AT THIS RATE??

FrakEarth · Jan 19, 2021

People pirating stuff like this should be ashamed. And before anyone tries to say piracy can be try before you buy:

Edit: thought this was interesting too:

Joedev · Jan 19, 2021

It's interesting to see such a big drop off on the Switch, since it's a pretty similar game, but it does seem like there are multiple reasons. NV hit way earlier in the Switch life, which probably was a big boost. There are a ton of these type games now, so it's probably harder to standout. Second, I don't really know how to measure it, but I think Gamepass probably has an effect. I can only speak for myself, but SB is a game I would have purchased day 1 on Switch, but since I have GP, I just played it there.

I don't even have an Xbox, but I purchased 2 years of GPU so that I can try games out and reduce the amount of spending that I do on Indie games on Switch... I'm sure I'll double dip on an occasional game that I would enjoy more on Switch, but overall, I will be buying a lot fewer games than I did in the past.

Easy_G · Jan 19, 2021

Those look like gigantic changes over just three years. To me it seems like there needs to be more analysis behind this to understand it, as the "deals" wash out everything else. Are the Switch sales actually smaller (due to the Switch library being more crowded) or are the Steam sales better now?

Just lots of questions.

Oregano · Jan 19, 2021

Joedev said:
It's interesting to see such a big drop off on the Switch, since it's a pretty similar game, but it does seem like there are multiple reasons. NV hit way earlier in the Switch life, which probably was a big boost. There are a ton of these type games now, so it's probably harder to standout. Second, I don't really know how to measure it, but I think Gamepass probably has an effect. I can only speak for myself, but SB is a game I would have purchased day 1 on Switch, but since I have GP, I just played it there.

I don't even have an Xbox, but I purchased 2 years of GPU so that I can try games out and reduce the amount of spending that I do on Indie games on Switch... I'm sure I'll double dip on an occasional game that I would enjoy more on Switch, but overall, I will be buying a lot fewer games than I did in the past.

There's some additional context to that here:

Piston · Jan 19, 2021

I definitely think the eShop has become a liability rather than a boon for smaller indy games at this point. There is a possibility that a high-profile game like Hades can float to the top and thrive but you have to show up in the charts to sustain success.

MauroNL · Jan 19, 2021

Easy_G said:
Those look like gigantic changes over just three years. To me it seems like there needs to be more analysis behind this to understand it, as the "deals" wash out everything else. Are the Switch sales actually smaller (due to the Switch library being more crowded) or are the Steam sales better now?

Just lots of questions.

Oregano said:
There's some additional context to that here:

Game platform deep-dive: from NeuroVoider to ScourgeBringer

The latest GameDiscoverCo article looks at Flying Oak Games' deep-dive data on NeuroVoider & ScourgeBringer's multi-platform game performance - revenue source b

www.gamasutra.com

Gamasutra did a write-up about this as well and has some more notes on it:

"He starts out with the most 'shocking' stat, see above. Though it's perhaps not one that would surprise you if you've been listening to GameDiscoverCo's comments that 'Switch got pretty crowded, sales aren't what they used to be just because of supply/demand disparities'.

As you can see, just comparing Steam and Switch, NeuroVoider - which launched early in the Switch's lifecycle - had 91% of its revenue in the first 60 days on Switch - and 9% on Steam. But ScourgeBringer had just 14% of its 60-day revenue on Switch, and 86% on Steam.

Thomas adds some detail here: "NeuroVoider released very early in the [Switch] console lifecycle, and was pretty much alone [in the release schedule]. ScourgeBringer released during the most crowded month the console has ever known (while also performing super well on PC, vs. NeuroVoider's bad PC launch)."

He also notes elsewhere on the extreme disparity: "ScourgeBringer did 4 times less [revenue] than NeuroVoider on Switch, while doing 10 times more on Steam." FWIW, I think ScourgeBringer has a better 'hook' and is more enticing, so I get why it hit on Steam"

Kalor · Jan 19, 2021

They mention it but those Switch stats aren't too surprising considering the eshop is so cluttered nowadays and discoverability is bad. It's nice that the Steam revenue was up compared to NeuroVoider at least since I enjoyed what I played of Scourgebringer on Gamepass.

Alek · Jan 19, 2021

Yeah. Anything sells like crazy when there's thirst for it, and early adopters are thirsty as fuck. They're often folks with plenty of disposable income and there attention is almost guaranteed to hit your title.

Makes me sad that games like Hades haven't been announced for PS5, because it would sell like crazy right now. That and Silksong not hitting PS5 alongside PC, I think it's a mistake. If you get inside that early adoption window, your game, if it's decent, will fly.

Easy_G · Jan 19, 2021

MauroNL said:
Game platform deep-dive: from NeuroVoider to ScourgeBringer

The latest GameDiscoverCo article looks at Flying Oak Games' deep-dive data on NeuroVoider & ScourgeBringer's multi-platform game performance - revenue source b

www.gamasutra.com

Gamasutra did a write-up about this as well and has some more notes on it:

"He starts out with the most 'shocking' stat, see above. Though it's perhaps not one that would surprise you if you've been listening to GameDiscoverCo's comments that 'Switch got pretty crowded, sales aren't what they used to be just because of supply/demand disparities'.

As you can see, just comparing Steam and Switch, NeuroVoider - which launched early in the Switch's lifecycle - had 91% of its revenue in the first 60 days on Switch - and 9% on Steam. But ScourgeBringer had just 14% of its 60-day revenue on Switch, and 86% on Steam.

Thomas adds some detail here: "NeuroVoider released very early in the [Switch] console lifecycle, and was pretty much alone [in the release schedule]. ScourgeBringer released during the most crowded month the console has ever known (while also performing super well on PC, vs. NeuroVoider's bad PC launch)."

He also notes elsewhere on the extreme disparity: "ScourgeBringer did 4 times less [revenue] than NeuroVoider on Switch, while doing 10 times more on Steam." FWIW, I think ScourgeBringer has a better 'hook' and is more enticing, so I get why it hit on Steam"

Thanks, that certainly answers it.

My first reaction is that Nintendo should find a way to make the eShop less crowded, but that might actually be worse instead for indies, in that many games would thus have zero sales while a few games would have large sales. The current setup allows lots of games to have some sales. I suppose that's better. Maybe.

Animismus · Jan 19, 2021

I am very curious on how they figure the pirate ratio. SB does not have multiplayer, so I can only guess that the game is phonning home with a hardware hash - that is how I guess they get the pirate to buy ratio - but I would love to have more details about the former, mostly for curiosity as I will never program a game in my lifetime.

etrain911 · Jan 19, 2021

GungJoe said:
Yeah. Anything sells like crazy when there's thirst for it, and early adopters are thirsty as fuck. They're often folks with plenty of disposable income and there attention is almost guaranteed to hit your title.

Makes me sad that games like Hades haven't been announced for PS5, because it would sell like crazy right now. That and Silksong not hitting PS5 alongside PC, I think it's a mistake. If you get inside that early adoption window, your game, if it's decent, will fly.

Yeah, this is right on the money. Temtem seems to be performing well on PS5 simply because it's a PS5 game in a period where there aren't many.

Also hello from one user researcher to another (though I work in a different industry) 😊!

Chucker · Jan 19, 2021

Also, go play Scourgebringer, it's super dope!

bobnowhere · Jan 19, 2021

It does show how brutal the market is outside of Steam, that 2% is Epic + GOG + WIn 10 of raw sales.

Deleted member 5596 · Jan 19, 2021

I think this is more of a failure on how the big 3 handle their stores and visibility rather than just early adopters and crowded market, because if there's a market that is crowded that's Steam and PC in general.

Even if the Steam store is not ideal, they are way ahead in how they try to improve discoverability for small games. Both PSN and eShop are terribad in this regard.

808s & Villainy · Jan 19, 2021

Piston said:
I definitely think the eShop has become a liability rather than a boon for smaller indy games at this point. There is a possibility that a high-profile game like Hades can float to the top and thrive but you have to show up in the charts to sustain success.

There's no way for a digital shop to be a boon for everyone. People only have so much money to spread around and you can only showcase so many games before it no longer becomes a showcase.

Either way, it still points to what we know that if you're an indie, it's best to go for Steam + Switch to get the most out of PC and console audiences (for initial launch systems, assuming you can't launch on them all)

Deleted member 86891 · Jan 19, 2021

where did he get the piracy statistics, especially figuring out something like "conversion rate"? a 50% piracy rate feels unrealistically steep

808s & Villainy · Jan 19, 2021

ointment said:
where did he get the piracy statistics, especially figuring out something like "conversion rate"? a 50% piracy rate feels unrealistically steep

I'm assuming they probably have some request they send back to a server when someone starts the game and match it with the sales numbers. Maybe?

oneils · Jan 19, 2021

ointment said:
where did he get the piracy statistics, especially figuring out something like "conversion rate"? a 50% piracy rate feels unrealistically steep

I remember reading, in another thread from last week, that a dev claimed that their piracy rate was 70%. So that seems to corroborate this.

I wonder if regional pricing would help alleviate this? I wonder what this dev's regional pricing policy is? Or if that's just a red herring.

Deleted member 86891 · Jan 19, 2021

808s & Villainy said:
I'm assuming they probably have some request they send back to a server when someone starts the game and match it with the sales numbers. Maybe?

yeah idk, there's a lot of implementations I could think of and many of them could produce inaccurate numbers.

Kaguya · Jan 19, 2021

Oregano said:
There's some additional context to that here:

This reminds me of every time someone here bring up an indie game releasing in a busy month on one platform as a reason of it not doing well vs doing well on another platform during an empty month and people laugh at them.

Messofanego · Jan 19, 2021

That's a lot of piracy to eat, sucks. It's not even like a graphically intensive game where you might be tempted to pirate to test if your system can run it when there's no demo or not sure about system requirements.

Dekuman · Jan 19, 2021

I don't think it is just a Switch thing. Console sales of Scourgebringer collapsed and I don't think it got much of a push from outlets who usually do a good job of highlighting indies on Switch

Piston · Jan 19, 2021

808s & Villainy said:
There's no way for a digital shop to be a boon for everyone. People only have so much money to spread around and you can only showcase so many games before it no longer becomes a showcase.

Either way, it still points to what we know that if you're an indie, it's best to go for Steam + Switch to get the most out of PC and console audiences (for initial launch systems, assuming you can't launch on them all)

Yeah fair point. The simple volume of games becomes unmanageable at some point. I think it would help to have something along the lines of what Steam has with the daily recommendations of games and better search methods though.

KeRaSh · Jan 19, 2021

That 0.01% piracy conversion rate. I'm sure most of the "I only pirate to try it like a demo" comments are bullshit.

Weltall Zero · Jan 19, 2021

The huge dip in Switch sales for the newer game is kind of depressing for indies like myself that hoped for Switch to be a more viable market. :(

FuzzyWuzzy · Jan 19, 2021

interesting stats to be honest, also shows how huge steam is compared to the egs
Got to admit though while I enjoyed Neurovoider I wasnt aware of this game until I opened this thread :(

Bonfires Down · Jan 19, 2021

Any developer who wants to use DRM to protect their game is the devil though.

DailyCalmSpirit · Jan 19, 2021

Relaxed Muscle said:
I think this is more of a failure on how the big 3 handle their stores and visibility rather than just early adopters and crowded market, because if there's a market that is crowded that's Steam and PC in general.

Even if the Steam store is not ideal, they are way ahead in how they try to improve discoverability for small games. Both PSN and eShop are terribad in this regard.

I agree, but, I think that's really only the main problem on Switch.

For Xbox and PS, the race to the bottom has reached it's point. Both companies have conditioned their audiences to hold off on buying indie games, especially on day one. They will always be on sale or on one of their subscription services soon enough.

gothi · Jan 19, 2021

808s & Villainy said:
Either way, it still points to what we know that if you're an indie, it's best to go for Steam + Switch to get the most out of PC and console audiences (for initial launch systems, assuming you can't launch on them all)

If we assume that "Deals" includes Xbox Game Pass then I'd say that for an Indie the best option is to launch on Steam for PC and Game Pass for Xbox if you can't launch on them all.
Not only will you be financially better off (I accept that's anecdotal based on one chart and a huge assumption that "deals" has a large Game Pass component) but the unified SDK Microsoft have recently launched should make make building for those 2 platforms far less time consuming than PC + another platform.

Would be really interested to see how that Deals segment breaks down into the various services and whether Game Pass is a big chunk of it.

Edit:

Sounds like Xbox is a big part of their success so I can only assume Game Pass is a significant part of that "deals" section.

BobbeMalle · Jan 19, 2021

How does he know how many pirated the game? is that a projection of some sort based on units sold vs players online?

Teeth · Jan 19, 2021

Messofanego said:
That's a lot of piracy to eat, sucks. It's not even like a graphically intensive game where you might be tempted to pirate to test if your system can run it when there's no demo or not sure about system requirements.

Literally no one actually does this is except the three keyboard warriors on slashdot that fill up every thread with it.

KeRaSh said:
That 0.01% piracy conversion rate. I'm sure most of the "I only pirate to try it like a demo" comments are bullshit.

That comment (about just wanting to demo a game) is also not reality, even if they think it in their heads. Every pirate just wants to play shit for free.

That said, it's also probably true that most pirates would have never bought your game anyway, at least in a culture of easy piracy.

Pancracio17 · Jan 19, 2021

GungJoe said:
Yeah. Anything sells like crazy when there's thirst for it, and early adopters are thirsty as fuck. They're often folks with plenty of disposable income and there attention is almost guaranteed to hit your title.

Makes me sad that games like Hades haven't been announced for PS5, because it would sell like crazy right now. That and Silksong not hitting PS5 alongside PC, I think it's a mistake. If you get inside that early adoption window, your game, if it's decent, will fly.

Yeah this seems pretty apparent. Depending on how good your game is, it might even keep selling the rest of the console cycle, as you will be known as the indie to get.

gothi · Jan 19, 2021

BobbeMalle said:
How does he know how many pirated the game? is that a projection of some sort based on units sold vs players online?

Deleted member 86891 · Jan 19, 2021

Bonfires Down said:
Any developer who wants to use DRM to protect their game is the devil though.

I kinda wanna make a game at some point and if/when I do, the biggest anti-piracy measure I'd put in would be a message on pirated versions that says something like "hey if you like this and you have the disposable income it'd be cool if you could buy it or donate to me"
I have a lot of empathy for people who pirate, a significant portion seem to be kids/teens who can only buy a game or two per year, from the ones I've met.

headspawn · Jan 19, 2021

My hope is that console makers prioritize helping titles like this get more visibility, I feel like that's the biggest hurdle and difference in why we often see skewed sales like that.

Also, anyone on the fence, ScourgeBringer is a pretty dope game, definitely check out the demo, pretty sure it's on Game Pass as well.

Fabtacular · Jan 19, 2021

KeRaSh said:
That 0.01% piracy conversion rate. I'm sure most of the "I only pirate to try it like a demo" comments are bullshit.

Too bad he doesn't have a way to test for game preservation, because I'm sure that's the other 99.99%.

KeRaSh · Jan 19, 2021

Fabtacular said:
Too bad he doesn't have a way to test for game preservation, because I'm sure that's the other 99.99%.

Not sure if sarcasm.
You can get the game DRM free or just buy a physical copy.

mael · Jan 19, 2021

What wild ride this industry is!
Early on with xbla, xbox was the place to be for small studios.
Then Sony made a big push so their environment became the better option while MSFT let their partners in the cold.
Then Sony basically forgot it was a place to promote indies and Nintendo's Switch was the big item to place your bets on.
And of course the eShop is more crowded than the Capitol during an insurrection so xbox is back again as the better partner.
All this while Steam being what it is, the place you absolutely cannot do without whatever the circumstances.

It's true that Nintendo is a little less good at pushing their indie partners.
They kind of let some of their biggest gems die on the vine and I'm not even sure what they're currently focusing on even.
It's becoming increasingly hard to find what you want in the eshop and the constant sales are absolutely not helping to the point that if a new game is out and it's not absolutely what you want you better wait for a sale or even for a better sale than the current one.
Scourgebringer wasn't what I really wanted (seriously I don't like roguelikes) so I'm glad for the demo, if it wasn't a rogue game I probably would have bought it myself but that's really me, it should have done better.

CommodoreKong · Jan 19, 2021

bobnowhere said:
It does show how brutal the market is outside of Steam, that 2% is Epic + GOG + WIn 10 of raw sales.

Yeah it really shows how little people want to use the Epic store to actually buy games unless they're forced to by an exclusivity deal.

mael · Jan 19, 2021

CommodoreKong said:
Yeah it really shows how little people want to use the Epic store to actually buy games unless they're forced to by an exclusivity deal.

Really Epic store is for the free weekly game and the Unreal Engine.
I don't even game on pc!

Fabtacular · Jan 19, 2021

KeRaSh said:
Not sure if sarcasm.
You can get the game DRM free or just buy a physical copy.

Sarcasm, for sure.

fanboy · Jan 19, 2021

i find these graphs confusing. they dont know how many of the physical copies were sold on each platform or something?

and how do they know how many players bought/pirated the game?

MrBob · Jan 19, 2021

I predicted this with the eshop a couple years ago. Disorganized mess with awful discovery ability which nintendo needs to fix. Need that promotion or be in the top sellers list. This is likely why we see games on eshop sell for 10 cents to crack into the top 30.

Visibility is already hard enough on Steam, and this is a topic Valve actively tackles too. Not easy issue to tackle. Nintendo needs to put in more effort in this area.

BobbeMalle · Jan 19, 2021

gothi said:

That's pretty clever

CommodoreKong · Jan 19, 2021

mael said:
Really Epic store is for the free weekly game and the Unreal Engine.
I don't even game on pc!

Apparently the game is on GoG and the Windows store as well, this really shows the vast majority of PC ga era choose Steam when they get the choice.

Cels · Jan 19, 2021

how do these pie charts account for game pass? for scourgebringer, it says steam 28%, other pc 1%. are there really 28x more steam players than there are people who played it on game pass (like me) or on GOG?

ScourgeBringer director shares interesting sales data about its performance compared to NeuroVoider

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