I'm having trouble following, a territory being autonomous due to no longer being a colony is advocating for colonialism?
Sec of State Pompeo tells Congress "Hong Kong is no longer autonomous from China"
- Thread starter Deleted member 431
- Start date
It's the Holding Foreign Companies Accountable Act -- the one that wants to delist Chinese companies on US stock exchanges because of the inability (edit: read, unwillingness) of Chinese companies to comply with audits.
The most recent example of problematic Chinese companies is Luckin Coffee. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Luckin Coffee happened to be one of the triggers for increased scrutiny.
There was some stanning for maduro, when Trump was shaking a big stick at Venezuela. But I think there will always be people that are okay with China, Russia etc because they are necessary evil to offset/neutralise the United States.
Fuck Brexit. We should be telling China to stick to the arrangement we made and if they try to take Hong Kong by force, we should be there to defend it. Nobody else is going to enforce the agreement we made and this is no real different to the Falklands, right? Hong Kong doesn’t want to be subject to Chinese rule and it’s the responsibility of the British to protect their independence.
Why is it surprising? The cultural difference between HK and TW is much smaller than HK and western countries. It makes sense from the average citizen’s perspective, whether it’s the safest long-term or not
I mean, yeah.
This was always going to be a cut nose to spite face type move for the CCpP.
The CCP figured that they’ve got enough clout they don’t need a free HK as a go between them and the West.
besides the civil rights issues for their goals imho its a stupid move, because trust with China has gone down since they were first bragging about the two systems rule. Not a good time to go full hardline and sabotage your one good drama free economic connection to the West. They are moving out out of fear.
This was always going to be a cut nose to spite face type move for the CCpP.
The CCP figured that they’ve got enough clout they don’t need a free HK as a go between them and the West.
besides the civil rights issues for their goals imho its a stupid move, because trust with China has gone down since they were first bragging about the two systems rule. Not a good time to go full hardline and sabotage your one good drama free economic connection to the West. They are moving out out of fear.
That makes no sense, Trump is the one that have threatened support of South Korea and NATO.
I’m gonna need more to go on here. What part is confusing?
There's also a darker reading of the CCP's recent moves: that they're expecting economic and national turmoil so they're pre-emptively hunkering down before it gets worse. That they consider the economic hit to be worthwhile is extremely worrying, because it indicates that the government is extremely worried about something.
Yep..I'm all for that act. + This removal of special trade relations.
I wish we had Obama, or anyone else in office during this event, to offer fast track citizenships for Hong Kong refugees
I can't tell if advocating a UK war with China is sarcasm or not.I’m gonna need more to go on here. What part is confusing?
I think that something is this current president leaving office soon. And someone competent stepping in.
Basically everyone knows you can get away with a lot of shit with this current guy.
And they are, like this admin, in a take the money and run mode
We made an agreement with China in 1997 that, as part of returning it to them, Hong Kong must remain independent until 2047. They’re clearly breaking the arrangement. What are we meant to do, just let them? The agreement is between the UK and China, so it’s our responsibility to demand it’s kept. Nobody else can or should step in and if China wants to go to war over Hong Kong, then we have to side with the people of Hong Kong.
I'd hate to say this, but I hold a prevailing pessimism regardless if Obama, a Democrat, or another Republican was in office. I also doubt that Trump and his presidency will ultimately do the right thing here, because he and his government will just move to the next shiny thing the moment this dies down.
I just don't see any sitting government expending significant political capital for Hong Kong, and I'm extremely sad because of it.
The UK was never going to go to war over Hong Kong with China. It’s different from the Falklands.
The UK surrendered Hong Kong because they knew they had no chance in hell with 1999 China. Toss on some anti colonialism as well.
It’s not legally the same situation but it is morally. The Falklands, like Hong Kong with China, did not want to be under Argentinian rule and it was the responsibility of the British government to safeguard their independence. Hong Kong is no different. If they don’t want to become part of China, we’re really the only country that can or should step in.
So we just let China take over Hong Kong, despite all the protests and clear signs Hong Kong wants to retain its independence? We just say “fuck it” and look the other way?
I don’t have any issues of letting Hong Kong fast track citizens citizenship, don’t we have a process for people fleeing from persecution or political issues? I know we have many from Venezuela due to that.
Morally you are right, but no one is going to pick a fight with China over Hong Kong.
If ASEAN had a military wing or if the Quad was an actual defensive alliance, maybe (like how the Baltic states are protected by article V against Russia).
But we don’t.
It sucks for the people of Hong Kong, best we can do is offer citizenship and let people get out.
I doubt ASEAN would be willing to pick a fight with China even with a strong military wing
We'll see what happens. The current administration doesn't care about democracy and freedom. No administration really cares that much compared to power. That being said, if the side-effect of bigotry-based, anti-China rhetoric, which is clearly inevitable with this administration, results in China giving HK back some of their freedom (which we'll see), then at least that will be a positive result.
1. HK legally belongs to China.
2. Majority of HK do not want complete independence from China, not that those who feel that way don't exist. Protests focus more about freedoms, not country independence.
3. Majority of Falkland Islanders are of British descent and want to be British.
4. This is not the same situation. More than that, it's not even similar.
That’s true.
Then the Quad? But realistically there is nothing that can really be done here.
Then we need to establish something that can step in. If we don’t stand beside the people of Hong Kong, nobody will, and they’ll lose their democracy for a dictatorship overnight. It’s just not acceptable and the people of Hong Kong need more than just empty platitudes. “We stand with Hong Kong” is about as useful as “thoughts and prayers”.
Yeah, the Brits should try softening the deal with some opium
Soldiers that die for ethics in a unwinnable war, are just dead.
no, the best thing to do is just peaceful protests with vocal support for the protestors by countries. throwing armed force does nothing but inflame chinese mainland nationalism.
and sanctions, trade wars.
and sanctions, trade wars.
So all that military strength is useless unless it directly benefits us, economically or financially? The one time there would be a conflict for the sake of someone else, to defend independence and democracy, and it suddenly isn’t worth it.
It‘s like the „bitch eating crackers“ meme. The administration is one of the worst but still, some decisions can be right.
Just dismissing everything right away is not the right way.
Yes? Most countries don’t go into a war unless they benefit.
Eesh. You’ve got a point. The soft power they were exerting for years seemed fine, but for usually cool actors the HK situation has been uncharacteristically sloppy. Which points to em being scared about something
your first instinct of wanting to escalate to military conflict is wrong, though. there are a thousand avenues to persue before you just throw lives away like that
This. HK people will get hurt more when HK lose its special economic status. At that point, I don't think HK can compete with Shanghai or Shenzhen.
The UK doesn't have much military strength at all compared to China. It's much easier to fight against Argentina than it is against China and the UK's military was in much better shape back in the early 80s than it is now. The UK threatening war with China would be a bit like me trying to start a fight with a grizzly bear.
Finally the administration does something that makes sense.
The whole Hong Kong situation is just a sad turn of history. It was taken from China due to British Imperialism following the Opium Wars when after the final war the British agreed to return control of the island after being allowed to rule it for 99 years rent free. One of the scummiest examples of colonialism. Yet, slowly through the decades Hong Kong was allowed to practice its own independence with the British relenting and fostering a bustling democratic and capitalist society. But while this is happening, that 99 year deadline is approaching and a now more powerful China post-WWII is ready to demand its territory back which they have every right to.
Thus, we get the Sino-British Joint Declaration which agrees to hand over the island back to China in exchange that Chinese State Communism isn't imposed on the island for 50 years. But it was never going to be followed by the CCP. Afterall, why should they have any terms dictated to them regarding territory that belongs to them in the first place and was only lost due to shitty colonialism? They were always going to impose communism on HK, it was only a matter of time. And now they feel that time is right.
Unfortunately there is not much the world can do beyond economic sanctions. China is a nuclear superpower and no one wants to risk WWIII.
The whole Hong Kong situation is just a sad turn of history. It was taken from China due to British Imperialism following the Opium Wars when after the final war the British agreed to return control of the island after being allowed to rule it for 99 years rent free. One of the scummiest examples of colonialism. Yet, slowly through the decades Hong Kong was allowed to practice its own independence with the British relenting and fostering a bustling democratic and capitalist society. But while this is happening, that 99 year deadline is approaching and a now more powerful China post-WWII is ready to demand its territory back which they have every right to.
Thus, we get the Sino-British Joint Declaration which agrees to hand over the island back to China in exchange that Chinese State Communism isn't imposed on the island for 50 years. But it was never going to be followed by the CCP. Afterall, why should they have any terms dictated to them regarding territory that belongs to them in the first place and was only lost due to shitty colonialism? They were always going to impose communism on HK, it was only a matter of time. And now they feel that time is right.
Unfortunately there is not much the world can do beyond economic sanctions. China is a nuclear superpower and no one wants to risk WWIII.
The UK has no military strength to fight against China. So what you are really asking is for the US to fight China.
Last edited:
This is not about helping Hong Kong. This is a American domestic legal obligation related to free (favorable) trade status.
Hong Kong is no longer a independent political entity that can be trusted to receive IP and movement of funds without being assumed to be influenced by greater China. So now trade must be operated under the greater agreements with China.
makes sense. china isn't going to listen. the world has demonstrated how dependent they are on their manufacturing that they can basically do whatever they want. the ccp is emboldened, and no one is there to confront them. riots in hong kong won't solve anything. prepare for another mass migration.
Warren advocated to giving HK residents Temporary Protected Status. If she is the Veep, I could see her hands involved with the China question.
foreignpolicy.com
It Is Time for the United States to Stand Up to China in Hong Kong
Tweets aren’t enough. Washington must make clear that it expects Beijing to live up to its commitments—and it will respond when China does not.
foreignpolicy.com
...the China question?Warren advocated to giving HK residents Temporary Protected Status. If she is the Veep, I could see her hands involved with the China question.
It Is Time for the United States to Stand Up to China in Hong Kong
Tweets aren’t enough. Washington must make clear that it expects Beijing to live up to its commitments—and it will respond when China does not.
Yeah... I'm not really optimistic about anything these days. Sometimes I wonder if the "End of History" means that countries are just unwilling to do anything.
Anyhow, regarding those points: even the five demands of the HK protestors do not contain any notions of independence. That's why a lot of the independence talk is so infuriating.
Surprisingly, my talking point isn't unique at all -- a lot of political and economic commentators have talked about the same thing. Xi is espousing nationalism during a time when China is facing a significant downturn in its (domestic and foreign) economy and demographics. Like, Belt and Road is seemingly a foreign policy plank, but it's in reality a bid for the Chinese economy to direct its efforts (and money) at something because China doesn't have a lot of areas where it can direct more infrastructure or growth projects. There can be a lot said about China 2025 too, but that probably deserves its own thread.
There's also weird movements with China buying up foreign IP directly because they're starting to realize that they can be locked out of some international markets if the trade rhetoric heats up. Hence why there have been concerns out of Britain about Imagination Technologies and how the IP can be moved to China: https://technode.com/2020/04/13/chipmaker-executives-quit-ahead-of-chinese-takeover/
From a domestic policy point of view, maintaining their own IP is a smart move from China, but it does not garner goodwill from the British government -- and might inflame tensions even further.
Gonna puncture your bubble here.
The UK was barely able to re-take the Falklands, which were far easier to get to, and had been invaded by an army that while close wasn't that well provisioned, and who were fighting for an unpopular regime whose choice to invade the Falklands was a last-ditch attempt to remain in office.
HK is on the other side of the planet, and is physically linked to China, the 2nd or 3rd biggest military power on the planet.
How do you think that's going to go, just on that basis and ignoring the UK's own trading and realpolitik needs with China.
I'm cautiously optimistic that between everything happening at the moment the Chinese government is going to overstep and other nations will stop turning a blind eye to them while they still can.
Personally, I'd want us to give HKers that want to move British passports - but there's no way that would happen, especially with a government that has turned systematic hostility towards immigrants into an art-form.
When the handover became more likely, we massively tightened up the ability for people with Overseas Territory passports to move to the UK - this was only loosened up after HK was handed over.
The UK should be crying foul over this, but it's been UK policy since 1997 to pretend HK doesn't exist.
There's little the UK can feasibly do for the territory, though. The UK and China are both nuclear powers, meaning there could never be a military route to protecting HK's status, and there's little in terms of soft power that can be done either.
HK folks should be being offered British passports, and should have been offered British passports since 1997. :/
There's little the UK can feasibly do for the territory, though. The UK and China are both nuclear powers, meaning there could never be a military route to protecting HK's status, and there's little in terms of soft power that can be done either.
HK folks should be being offered British passports, and should have been offered British passports since 1997. :/
There has been murmurs of BNO holders getting some of right to settle status, but I wouldn’t think much will come of that. And that probably won’t help most of the young protestors, given most who have got BNO and will take advantage of it would be the older generation, many of whom would be in the blue camp supporting the authorities.