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gogosox82

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,385
I think the debate about difficulty and difficulty-in-Souls-games are two different things.

Jedi Fallen Order did difficulty right.
If FROM wouldn't have been identified with their hard staple and the bragging honor badge then an easy option could make sense, but that ship has sailed.

People claiming easy option would make more money to FROM should remind themselves how Dead Space 3 turned into. Let FROM worry about their finances.
Fallen Order most certainly did not do difficulty right. Story mode enemies don't even attack you and and grand master difficulty you basically get one shot by basic enemies if you miss a parry. That is not balanced AT ALL. But i don't blame them its hard to balance difficulty modes which is probably why from doesn't have them in their games. Its much easier to balance around one static state instead of 3 or 4 even 5.
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
Souls fans would have you believe the only thing Souls games have going for them is difficulty.

quick edit: I have completed and loved all Souls games since Demons came out, but the gatekeeping hidden behind artistic integrity is the worst thing about this fanbase.
I love and completed all of their Souls games, I met the challenge and really enjoyed my time with it.

It is perfectly fine for From to not include difficulty options and balance around a certain experience.

It is also perfectly fine to criticize their decision to not have difficulty options.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
It's pretty logical dude. Implementing difficulty settings is not trivial work. The more options, the more work, playtesting, etc. To give you an idea: how many indies do you know that have difficulty settings? I know of Cosmic Star Heroine and Fell Seal (and they're both turn-based, hmm), but most indies I played lately sure don't have it; Hollow Knight, Salt and Sanctuary, La-Mulana, Monster Boy, Indivisible, Sonic Mania, CrossCode, Kingdom Come, A Plague Tale.... hell even Cuphead (which has a training mode but it doesn't let you progress) don't have easy modes.

So clearly it's not trivial dev work and I don't blame a dev for not wanting to invest resources to implement those when it's not the focus of their game. Cool if they want to and can afford it, but yeah.
CrossCode does let you adjust the difficulty
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,588
I don't precieve fire emblem to be as popular as souls so i don't think that's actually a good comparison. Fire emblem is a niche game. Souls started niche but are pretty main stream now which is why you get threads like this. I don't recall their ever being mega threads about easy modes in a fire emblem either here or at the old place.
Three Houses is on track to outsell Sekiro in a shorter timeframe, though...?
 

G_Zero

alt account
Banned
Mar 19, 2019
457
Disabilities are not just one certain type of physical disability that can be sorted by a specisl (very expensive) controller. Just like not every disabled person needs bigger font size or a colour blind feature. And yes, sometimes you cannot give enough help to give an equal playing field to a non-disabled person. That's not an excuse to give disabled people nothing. And it's not the non-disabled players that get to decide what sort of help is good enough for disabled players. And this thread is just alot of non-disabled people speaking about what's good enough for disable people.
Well, sorry, but being able to beat a video game is not a right. I think developers should do as much as they reasonably can without hurting the game for most people, such as supporting custom controls and colour-blind modes. But adding an easy mode to games like Dark Souls would, in my opinion, hurt the game too much for most players.

Ultimately, there are always Let's Plays.
Not all games support these special controls, though. In fact, a laughably amount don't.
Yeah, they totally should. That sucks, no argument here.
 

AnimeJesus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,181
There's a few tough boss fights but the difficulty is incredibly exaggerated for the most part.

Nah...it's really difficult for most people, it's possible I couldn't fully grasp the mechanics but as someone who's beaten Bloodborne, Demon Souls and Dark Souls...Sekiro was too hard for me and I had to just give up.
 

FlintSpace

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,817
Fallen Order most certainly did not do difficulty right. Story mode enemies don't even attack you and and grand master difficulty you basically get one shot by basic enemies if you miss a parry. That is not balanced AT ALL. But i don't blame them its hard to balance difficulty modes which is probably why from doesn't have them in their games. Its much easier to balance around one static state instead of 3 or 4 even 5.
Fallen Order did difficulty absolutely right.
Pick any game, Easiest difficulty and Last difficulty has always been baby mode to fucking annoying mode. They balanced it over parry window instead of increasing enemy health.


Their Normal is balanced enough that non souls player can have a taste while Hard is just right and probably how it is meant to be played.
 

gogosox82

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,385
Fallen Order did difficulty absolutely right.
Pick any game, Easiest difficulty and Last difficulty has always been baby mode to fucking annoying mode. They balanced it over parry window instead of increasing enemy health.


Their Normal is balanced enough that non souls player can have a taste while Hard is just right and probably how it is meant to be played.
I played the game on grand master. Its hard but not balanced and it feels cheap way cheaper than any souls game.

Edit: I would've preferred if it was like souls and balanced on one difficulty setting like normal and then i can put restrictions on myself if i feel its too easy like no healing, must parry everything, etc.
 

En-ou

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,839
I still don't really understand what's supposed to be so incredibly difficult about From's games... they just require patience, restraint and a cool headed approach, my SO is horrible at gaming and managed to beat Bloodborne after she learned to be patient. This is someone who can't even deal with having to move the camera in most games, for reference. Compared to stuff like the old Contra games or R-Type they're not hard in the slightest. I've been playing R-Type for almost 30 years at this point and it still consistently kicks my ass.

They're harder games than most, yes... but entirely fair and not even close to the impossible level of challenge most sell them as having.
Because ppl are lazy and don't use their brains. They want ez mode experience. I laugh when I hear complains about blood vials, spirit emblems, breakable weapons etc, when all you need to do to fix it is exercise the muscle in your head a bit. But like I said gaming to most ppl should be a mindless affair.
 

Ex Lion Tamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,193
Nah...it's really difficult for most people, it's possible I couldn't fully grasp the mechanics but as someone who's beaten Bloodborne, Demon Souls and Dark Souls...Sekiro was too hard for me and I had to just give up.

This was me at first, I was in a very similar situation. I bounced off of the game when it came out due to the difficulty but then came back to it recently with a fresh perspective and gave it some more time. Once it clicks and you realize you can't play it like dark souls (kind of how the beginning of bloodborne was such a difficult adjustment for me) then it starts to feel just about as hard as the rest of their games. Which is still quite difficult, but most people with perseverance can prevail.
 

Infcabbage

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,578
Portland, Oregon
I agree. Options for things like text scaling and button remapping should absolutely be a requirement. Difficulty, however, shouldn't be as it cannot be clearly defined.



Souls fans are the biggest critics of Souls games. Just look at how much flack DS2 gets within the community and isn't that the best reviewed game they've produced?

I've never interacted with a fan who has touted any of them as perfect games. Sekiro in particular is great, but it's widely derided due to lack of build variety. It's their least replayable game for that reason.
Of course, you can't just easily change a game's difficulty without throwing off the balance. But things for various levels of color blindness, visual ques for those hard of hearing, alternatives to actions that require very rapid button presses (for example holding instead of mashing). Many games have come a long way in terms of features like this, but most games still miss the mark.
 

Necron

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,292
Switzerland
Indeed.

Yet people still cannot accept a game being optimised towards one difficulty. It's an integral part of the design.
 

FlintSpace

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,817
I played the game on grand master. Its hard but not balanced and it feels cheap way cheaper than any souls game.

Edit: I would've preferred if it was like souls and balanced on one difficulty setting like normal and then i can put restrictions on myself if i feel its too easy like no healing, must parry everything, etc.
As I said, almost every game on its highest difficulty is annoying. I would say GoW is a pretty good game but even its GMGOW mode was broken if you aren't playing with NG+.

It's fine that you prefer one difficulty same as me but obviously Respawn is the one handling their finances. If adding more diff modes cater to larger audience than Jedi Order optimization has been the best implementation I have seen.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
I think the debate about difficulty and difficulty-in-Souls-games are two different things.

Jedi Fallen Order did difficulty right.
If FROM wouldn't have been identified with their hard staple and the bragging honor badge then an easy option could make sense, but that ship has sailed.

People claiming easy option would make more money to FROM should remind themselves how Dead Space 3 turned into. Let FROM worry about their finances.
Did it? Because higher difficulties felt like garbage. Either too easy or incredibly uneven. Granted some of that might have to do with the game clearly being rushed, but Souls it was not.
 

nachum00

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,418
Nah...it's really difficult for most people, it's possible I couldn't fully grasp the mechanics but as someone who's beaten Bloodborne, Demon Souls and Dark Souls...Sekiro was too hard for me and I had to just give up.
Ehh. You just haven't figured out how to abuse the parry. I think it's much easier than any of their other games
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,431
I would say the opposite, Jedi: fallen order balancing just emphasized to me why I don't want FROM to have multiple difficulty modes.
Fallen Order did difficulty absolutely right.
Pick any game, Easiest difficulty and Last difficulty has always been baby mode to fucking annoying mode. They balanced it over parry window instead of increasing enemy health.


Their Normal is balanced enough that non souls player can have a taste while Hard is just right and probably how it is meant to be played.

What you described isn't good though. The difficulties are pretty poorly balanced in JFO. I died like two times playing master and grandmaster is really fucking annoying to play. If you want a souls-like difficulty you're shit out of luck because they had to make four game modes and the balance between them is terrible.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,663
Well, sorry, but being able to beat a video game is not a right. I think developers should do as much as they reasonably can without hurting the game for most people, such as supporting custom controls and colour-blind modes. But adding an easy mode to games like Dark Souls would, in my opinion, hurt the game too much for most players.
They just don't have to play it, it doesn't hurt
 

FlintSpace

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,817
Did it? Because higher difficulties felt like garbage. Granted some of that might have to do with the game clearly being rushed, but Souls it was not.
Does it have to be Souls ?
The difficulty at Master was challenging enough. I am going through it and my friend who couldn't get pass Chained Ogre (even when he liked Sekiro) is struggling with Normal but is still playing. So definitely the game did something right in terms of difficulty.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
Not really true. Using Fire Emblem again, there was a huge debate for years if Fire Emblem needed to lose Prema-Deaths. Those for who wanted to get rid of it said it was an unneeded feature that only added frustration since most players who reset anyway upon losing an unit that they invested several dozen hours into to. Those for it said it was a central part of the game that made players think ahead and not brute force their way through and if you reset upon losing an unit, that was on you.

In the end, adding a Casual Mode for those who didn't want to deal with Prema-Deaths did nothing to harm the franchise, if anything was the opposite. The more casual players who wanted to enjoy the games without fear of forever losing units because of a mistake were happy and those who wanted every move to count and one mistake could lead to you losing one of your best units still had the mode they grew up with.
Awakening and Three Houses are incredibly imbalanced. It's way to easy to train up god units that just walk a path of destruction in those game. Hell, Three Houses had a lot of complaints around release that normal was basically easy in disguise and hard was really normal.
 

effin

Member
Jan 20, 2019
210
Yeah, the thing about that solution is that most people who want to play a game on an easier difficulty want to do it to experience the story, so it'd be a counterintuitive solution.

Personally I'd just have it so the checkpointing works differently and bosses have slightly less moves at their disposal and lower HP, and it'd be activated after either dying enough times in quick succession or in a deep options menu.

That way purists don't get interrupted and newcomers can still have a shot at playing it the "intended" way before bumping things down.
Yeah I definitely agree that it has the massive issue still of gating away content. Potentially it could only really apply to optional hyper difficult bosses such as Orphan of Kos, knowing that there's no way to play it with an easier solution?

I know that still doesn't solve the gating content issue but I'm not sure if there's really a nice solution to allowing certain players those bragging rights over besting the toughest bosses without making sure the games have accessibility options.
 

AnimeJesus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,181
This was me at first, I was in a very similar situation. I bounced off of the game when it came out due to the difficulty but then came back to it recently with a fresh perspective and gave it some more time. Once it clicks and you realize you can't play it like dark souls (kind of how the beginning of bloodborne was such a difficult adjustment for me) then it starts to feel just about as hard as the rest of their games. Which is still quite difficult, but most people with perseverance can prevail.

hopefully that's the case for me to...ive been meaning to give it another go.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
Yeah I definitely agree that it has the massive issue still of gating away content. Potentially it could only really apply to optional hyper difficult bosses such as Orphan of Kos, knowing that there's no way to play it with an easier solution?

I know that still doesn't solve the gating content issue but I'm not sure if there's really a nice solution to allowing certain players those bragging rights over besting the toughest bosses without making sure the games have accessibility options.

Yeah locking away secret ultra-hard bosses seem like the best way to go about it. Kingdom Hearts already essentially does this, even though its extra bosses are available at easier difficulties they're still a significant step up.
 

Agent 47

Banned
Jun 24, 2018
1,840
Nah...it's really difficult for most people, it's possible I couldn't fully grasp the mechanics but as someone who's beaten Bloodborne, Demon Souls and Dark Souls...Sekiro was too hard for me and I had to just give up.
The difficulty comes from a lack of patience and not wanting to play on the games terms, same with every souls game. It's no more difficult than any other game as long as you play by the rules. I see a lot of people ignoring the parry and poise system and simply wailing on a bosses health bar, that's not how the game wants you to play.
 

Fitts

You know what that means
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,216
Of course, you can't just easily change a game's difficulty without throwing off the balance. But things for various levels of color blindness, visual ques for those hard of hearing, alternatives to actions that require very rapid button presses (for example holding instead of mashing). Many games have come a long way in terms of features like this, but most games still miss the mark.

Color blindness I don't have a great understanding of so I won't speak to it, but if we're talking Sekiro specifically it gives both visual and audio cues for everything by default (crit/counter opportunities/etc) and doesn't require mashing while also giving the opportunity to hold for block. If most games miss the mark on these it seems Sekiro is ahead of the curve in terms of accessibility.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Awakening and Three Houses are incredibly imbalanced. It's way to easy to train up god units that just walk a path of destruction in those game. Hell, Three Houses had a lot of complaints around release that normal was basically easy in disguise and hard was really normal.

Normal Mode in Fire Emblem is the Easy Mode. Hard Mode is Normal for Fire Emblem. The reason why they label Easy as 'Normal' is because research have shown that people will pick Normal over Easy, even when Normal is kicking their asses. We even have evidence of this with Radiance Dawn. In the US, the Normal Mode was really Hard and Hard was really Lunatic, and Easy Mode wasn't even included. What we got was people complaining that Radiance Dawn was too hard since gamer picked 'Hard' and got their ass kicked and refused to tone down the difficulty.

It also not that easy to overtrain in Three Houses since you can't really grind in Hard Mode, and the only way to over level is to spend hours micro-managing your units. Which is how you can get playthroughs up to 100 or more hours. Same with Awakening where you have to spend hours grinding, building relationships, and farming skills to make god units. It isn't something you do by accident, you have to go out of your way to do it.
 
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HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
And for the record, Souls has sold 25 million copies as of this year and that 2 million on Bloodborne is from 2015. There are no new numbers.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
You mean the text that only appears once on the screen that literally no one reads? I'm talking something like DMC's void mode where you can experiment with a random grunt-type NPC to get familiar with the deflect, counter hit and deathblow mechanics. This game has a very good but unique combat system, which warrants a full tutorial mode in my opinion.

There is a guy in the literal first area that is all of that.
 

Dylan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,260
OK 14 pages in and the abuse of the term 'literally' in this thread is off the charts.
 

Dylan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,260
head-explode-calvin.jpg
 

sn00zer

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,095
Fallen Order most certainly did not do difficulty right. Story mode enemies don't even attack you and and grand master difficulty you basically get one shot by basic enemies if you miss a parry. That is not balanced AT ALL. But i don't blame them its hard to balance difficulty modes which is probably why from doesn't have them in their games. Its much easier to balance around one static state instead of 3 or 4 even 5.
The third difficulty level is one everyone talks about
 

ry-dog

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,180
i think its sort of like a direct compromising his vision by releasing a PG cut of an R rated movie.

easy mode should be up to the creator

But at the end of the day the R-rated dead pool 2 still exists, a PG release doesn't affect the original in anyway, it just makes the product more accessible
 

Zemst

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,095
Fallen order is sitting at 80 meta. That's all i need to know about the sideliners admiring it from a distance, and how much better it is than sekiro if it took tips from an inferior clone.
 

mazpratim

Member
Oct 27, 2017
254
I think having an easy mode is bad because balancing the game for multiple difficulties is way harder than balancing a game for just one, I don't think there's a single game in existence where all the difficulties are properly balanced. I would be okay with a god mode though where you just have infinite health with no other changes.
 

ABK281

Member
Apr 5, 2018
3,004
User banned (two weeks): trolling, history of similar infractions
Yeah, it just proves all the 2 inchers that demanded an easier difficulty are wrong and can continue to be sad babies crying in the corner about being unable to beat the game without an "easy" difficulty option. Imagine being upset because a dev just requires you to put some effort into being good at their game. It shouldn't be impossible for anybody to beat the game if they're willing to afford it their effort, it's not that difficult of a game.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,169
Wasn't that notion struck down long ago, when the Dark Souls games became established multi million sellers?
 

Kabuki Waq

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,827
But at the end of the day the R-rated dead pool 2 still exists, a PG release doesn't affect the original in anyway, it just makes the product more accessible

at the end of the day the creators agreed to compromise the vision. its not a must for every r rated movie. I cant think of any oscar winners that have done this. i mean imagine working hard on something for years that has neutered your vision.