In that case the activists have fucked us all, because they've been wasting all that time rather than getting politically savvy to get them on board. What have they been doing all the years?
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Senator Dianne Feinstein is taped being snide to children asking about the Green New Deal
- Thread starter Deleted member 43084
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In that case the activists have fucked us all, because they've been wasting all that time rather than getting politically savvy to get them on board. What have they been doing all the years?
The role of scientists is not to be an ally to politicians, I hope you realize this. You can be the greatest politician to reach across the isle to push through some incremental change but if you do not realize that climate change is real and will require radical change, some change that goes against the interest of the corporations behind your election campaigns, some change to the political norms you have stopped questioning over years of striving above all to be relected - then in the end you do not understand what politics is about.
As for the question about children engaging in political action / activism - politics and certainly activism is not all about the construction of consensus. It has aspects of antagonism and agonism, certainly in situations where certain norms are so naturalized that you stop questioning them or asking who gains and who loses through these norms (eg the influence of corporate money in US politics). This does not exclude instances of consensus in politics, it has its place - but it is seldom the role of activists. To give an example, Rosa Parks' action was not geared towards decorum and showing civility to elected politicians, neither is that the goal of BLM or people, including kids taking the knee...
Which norms of politics are so fundamental that they have never/will never change? Which of these are broken here?
What is in your mind the most radical change produced within the US political sphere?
An issue here is that you speak of this as this is the first time Feinstein is exposed to the effects of climate change and its immediate need for transformative action.
This is true, but it has its role as you also say. By your own accord perhaps activism is where these kids can excel considering their lack of tact, respect and bowing to the age old oracles of maintaining status quo. Again, you would do well to read up on the Fridays for Future movement.
I want also to remind you that those on the right who criticize BLM and tear at those taking the knee, use the similar arguments - that it is an utter lack of respect, shows no decorum, this is not the way to act to get consensus, it offends za large part of the establishment and anyway there is no reason to complain as incremental change is happening, thus there is no need for systemic change. I assume you do not question the role of BLM in the US political landscape and do not berrate those who take the knee?
When I see kids under 16 doing anything on the "national political stage" all I can see is their parents pushing them and whispering in their ears.
You're barely having a discussion with me now on a very serious issue. I have some ideas of where you were going, but you're not presenting a strong defence.
That's exactly what I heard. Then saying to the guardian of those kids "you should run for the senate then and do it your way"
Tell that to AOC - oh wait. What an obviously bought Senator Diane is.
Yeah, the kids are the assholes, not the powerful politician who could start giving a rat's ass about the future that they won't have to live through instead of being more concerned about their hurt pride.
When the politicians in question are wasting precious time as the humanity-ending threats come closer and closer just because someone wasn't all "Do please sir/ma'am consider maybe vote for something that will save the human race pretty please" then yeah, they can fuck right off.
It's faster to primary their asses than to sit and hope that, one day, they will move from completely rejecting what needs to be done, to accepting 10%.
People that are baby boomers or older, don't give a shit about environmental issues because they'll be dead long before the consequences manifest. It's honestly time to start voting in younger leadership that actually values the environment.
Wait.....
The activists have fucked us all and not the politicians who refused to do anything about climate change?
Am I reading you right?
Some will absolutely have that response. Whether you folks want to accept it or not, people do shutdown and stop listening over all kinds of things. Even moreso after decades of watching the political machine grind. Knowing this, it is 1000% reckless and unproductive to throw tact out the window.
"Who cares how I behave, we're gonna die," how exactly does that make these people more willing to listen? Feel how you want to feel about their sensitivity, as ridiculous in the grand scheme of things it may be, but don't act like you can antagonize anyone and claim progress every single time. Until we live in an idealized world, you're actually making things worse in many cases.
For people unawate in this thread about the #fridaysforchange movement - this what is behind the idea of climate activism by kids. It is not some strategy connocted by Sunrise or by these parents.
Look up #fridaysforchange on Twitter and read up on Greta Thunberg and then come back and tell how offensive you find such actionand lack of respect of the elderly white statesmen
There is a false equivalence on display here in this thread by saying well you know what do you say about the Maga kids hating on POCs - first, you can genuinely say children are legitimate stakeholders in climate change, second, what they are parroting are scientific facts - every goddamn respectable scientist is pointing out that current measures of combatting climate change is not nearly enough and politicians need to do more.
Look up #fridaysforchange on Twitter and read up on Greta Thunberg and then come back and tell how offensive you find such actionand lack of respect of the elderly white statesmen
There is a false equivalence on display here in this thread by saying well you know what do you say about the Maga kids hating on POCs - first, you can genuinely say children are legitimate stakeholders in climate change, second, what they are parroting are scientific facts - every goddamn respectable scientist is pointing out that current measures of combatting climate change is not nearly enough and politicians need to do more.
I do, but they need to get governments on their side to do their work with catastrophes like climate change. I'm not expecting them to do anything with the GOP, but they should be trying to get through to the Dems. While I agree the politicians have failed us in this situation, they should know by now what the stakes are and moved Heaven and Earth to save us, we can't ignore their presence to save the world - either they're with us or we die. What disappoints me is that the climate change side has failed to get them on board, and stunts like this won't help. Activism is important and influential but there needs to be a considerable side on the politics within Washington and that never materialised properly. We needed both and only got one.
[qute]As for the question about children engaging in political action / activism - politics and certainly activism is not all about the construction of consensus. It has aspects of antagonism and agonism, certainly in situations where certain norms are so naturalized that you stop questioning them or asking who gains and who loses through these norms (eg the influence of corporate money in US politics). This does not exclude instances of consensus in politics, it has its place - but it is seldom the role of activists. [/quote]
True, and in many contexts it's acceptable, but here it felt like overkill. There was no good faith involved, rather than being smart kids who were blazing a trail for themselves with civility or aggression in politics they are props to unseat a senator.
I agree, but she was in no position to afford alternatives that were less hostile. Sunrise could have been, as they had links to the Justice Democrats. Instead they went all out and never bothered trying to offer a hand first. Maybe it wouldn't have world but what bothered me is that they didn't bother seeing that as an option, period. To them activism was all about protests and shaming, whereas BLM altered its course behind the scenes so they had better options to apply.
The role of civility in front of the camera and behind closed doors. They didn't have to rely strictly on this, but they should have bothered to try.
I'd say Martin Luthor King Jr. is the activist who produced results. Where he differs from Sunrise is that he was a man who knew his limits and didn't simply offer the stick, that was more Malcolm X's role, and he appealed to decency when able and worked with politicians behind the scenes IIRC. He was very intelligent, able to read the political winds and was able to accomplish incredible things with the time he had on Earth - I'm not getting that with stunts like this against Feinstein. Maybe I'm wrong, but this act did not look encouraging for how they were helping us from climate change.
I don't know what Feinstein thinks, what I do know is that not acting in good faith won't endear her to the cause. We need carrot and stick, not just stick. Lobbying is another angle which should be pursued, if she can't be reasoned with get her with bargaining on something else to get her on our side.
In many cases I'd agree, I just don't in this specific circumstance. If the kids had done this themselves I'd be more lenient, however, since they were being chaperoned with what to do on messaging this undercuts their role as props rather than critics who disagree in good faith. I'm not blaming the kids for this, mind you, I'm blaming Sunrise.
Different opponents react to different strategies. Those causes you've mentioned won't get through to the establishment with decorum but this was not the case here. There are many options available in this instance, which is a shame they were ignored because decorum can be powerful wielded correctly with the right opponent.
No, I have no issue with BLM or those who take the knee. That I can respect.
Don't think things can get much worse because what is being done to slow down our effect on the environment is not cutting it. At this moment, we are FUCKED, millions are going to die, millions are going be displaced, trillions in structural damage. It is pretty hard to have "decorum" or "tact" when that is what we are facing as a species.
Scientists, researchers and people who care about the environment have been tactfully trying to make things change for decades. Those in power simply haven't given a shit. Now we're reaching a point where change needs to happen NOW, it may even be too late. The situation is too far gone to go about this nicely and hope those people who haven't listened for decades suddenly do.
We need strikes, we need rallies, we need people taking the message to those in charge that we need change now.
We need strikes, we need rallies, we need people taking the message to those in charge that we need change now.
I really wish more people had voted for Kevin de Leon. Voted for him even though I knew he didn't really have a chance against Feinstein.
And sheesh some people in this thread. Yes, let's fucking blame tiny kids who are going to have to live in this shit instead of the octogenarian with too much ego and too much pride that got embarrassed and lashed out.
And sheesh some people in this thread. Yes, let's fucking blame tiny kids who are going to have to live in this shit instead of the octogenarian with too much ego and too much pride that got embarrassed and lashed out.
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It could get worse. We could speed the destruction up. If people think think the damage can be reversed, things could get worse as far as decreasing the will to do more.
And I'm not saying its easy to have tact. I'm disputing the notion that a tactless approach in every politcal conversation situation is always with consequence. People jump on the bandwagon against certain causes because of interactions they have with people, regardless of the merit of their argument. This is the world we live in. Change it or adapt, acting like the consideration of decorum was the one thing holding everything back has already proven itself not to be the singular solution.
People generally don't respond well when people talk down to them instead of talking with them. Listing all your credentials and that you won by a plurality of a million votes as some sort of flex to a bunch of children doesn't work just like it doesn't work with adults.
Oh yes, it's the climate change ACTIVISTS who are at fault! They should've spent all these years cultivating magic political powers of persuasion that surely would've worked against enormous corporations and lobbying groups and rich politicians trying to get richer! Scientists could definitely be effective against decades of TV and radio propaganda if only they had some political SAVVY. Too bad they didn't and now THEY doomed us all.
Really, they should just have these kids get together to summon Captain Planet instead of confront a politician who's supposed to answer to the people. It'd be much more effective. Maybe HE can convince her to get "on board" with preventing more millions of people from dying.
It's wild how solutions to serious problems (climate change, healthcare, gun control, racism, etc) gets the "Can't do anything. Shouldn't try." treatment or, at best, "This needs to be taken VERY slowly" but solutions to non problems has Lindsey Graham on Twitter crying for emergency powers.
Anyway, I like when kids are used for political purposes see but only sometimes. Not that kid raising money for the wall. Fuck the adults who made him do that.
Anyway, I like when kids are used for political purposes see but only sometimes. Not that kid raising money for the wall. Fuck the adults who made him do that.
Kinda how I saw it...she didn't even get a minute to speak without either the kids or the activitists coming in yelling at her about something she's already well aware of.
I am always a little skeptical when it comes to kids protesting climate change etc. Not that it's wrong but in my experuence only the leaders of that protest might actually know what they are talking about, the rest just tags along because hey no classes! Thats's how it was in my days anyway. I went to protests as well, 90% don't even know what they are protesting for or against, they're just happy they don't have maths or whatever.
But if it rattles our leaders like that more power to them.
But if it rattles our leaders like that more power to them.
That's all well and good but if some of these politicians won't do what is best for us while we have proverbial gun because we aren't nice/polite to them then idk what to say.
The entire framing of this discussion is broken because of a video posted out of context. That is Project Veritas-level smearing.
Feinstein engaged in a productive dialogue and voiced support for their legislation.
Feinstein engaged in a productive dialogue and voiced support for their legislation.
Yup. Ambush+heavily edited video = nothing good can come for this.
Lmao. We are faced with an existential threat and we have to be nice in order to get the politicians to play along or else they won't do anything?
We are going to die because of decorum
What happens when we're nice and polite and politicians still don't listen?
Well that's when people get angry. And when enough people get angry, some shit happens.
Ichthyosaurus' position is consistently that if nice and polite isn't working it's because you're not doing it right.
Shhh, then we'll have people telling us that we have to be even more nice and polite not get angry.
I could swore Ichthy also brought up MLK, the man who owned a gun and was killed for his teachings. He also wasn't that nice and polite when you think about it. He himself called out that very same approach when he lambasted white moderates who valued decorum and peace over real change.
Oh sorry. I forgot that decorum appeals are meant to keep change from happening.
These kids are probably thinking, "Okay, Diane, REMEMBER this moment, because when we are all of voting age, we'll surely remember YOU, old woman!"
Threads like this one never fail to remind me how many here I would never vote to represent me, should they ever decide to run for office. Truly, intelligent, informed, conscientious, rational, empathetic minds like AOC are a rare bird indeed.
P.S.: Feinstein handled this badly, as she has many other issues throughout the years.
P.S.: Feinstein handled this badly, as she has many other issues throughout the years.