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Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,623
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Hello Reset!
An article has been making the rounds in German speaking Twittersphere and games media and I thought both its message, and its discussion topic were really important, hence my sharing it here.

The "most authentic" history game of all time?! The phenomenally skewed case of Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

The article is in German of course, but I imagine you could get through it with Google Translate should push come to shove. Some highlights

Regarding Creator Daniel Vávra's insistence on europe of the middle ages lacking POCs (hence them not being in game):
Ultimately he justifies his position with a nationalistic stance with an anti-imperialistic reflex. He merely says he was born in the Region in question and that is why he purports to know more about the history of the region than any historian who may come along: a history which he appears to perceive as his history.
Or getting at the crux of it all:
Why are the games press remaining silent? Is it because they fear the gamergate crusaders? Is it due to economic necessecity because they have to hype a hyped up game? Or is it the more incomprehensible notion that creators' political positions never trickle down into their games?! That they do though. Vávra has always said it himself, with every statement with which he "justified" why there were to be no non-white persons in Kingdom Come: Deliverance. A game is not "just a game"! Daniel Vávra is a racist and sexist with revisionary historical understandings - and these notions find their way into his game. Kingdom Come: Deliverance presents the middle ages in the manner which Vávra finds to be authentic.
As someone who backed the game during the kickstarter, I have fallen away from it after orginally follow Vávra on Twitter. Over time I saw the posts he made, the positions he held, and people he chose to interact with which soured me completely on him, in spite of his great insights into RPG design.

So the question is, how far can we as people who enjoy playing games, separate games from their creators? And furthermore, how much are we willing to stomach in terms of historical revisionism. It is obvious Kingdom Come: Deliverance strives for authentic history whilst making concessions for game design, fun and narration. Yet it also makes concessions, implicit and explicit, due to historical revisionist and national-mythos-based positions from its creators.
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Midday edit:
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Daniel Vávra's statement:
Right now I should actually sit down to realize together with our international team our dream of a game in which we all work together for years. Unfortunately, in the past few days, a discussion has developed that relates to my person and things that I have said or done. It's run by people I've never met in person or who've never had a chance to catch a glimpse of Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

In the past, I communicated things badly or did not think carefully enough about my comments. Especially in social media like Twitter, something - I've learned that - can be very dangerous. These comments can be taken out of the context and reassembled.

If the discussion were only about me as a private person, I would still find the allegations and the wording vicious, but would refrain from accepting and accepting it. But now we have reached a point where not only alone is I concerned, but more than 150 people who have nothing to do with my mistakes and decisions. People whose hard work and future are endangered. People who have invested hundreds of hours, crunch-time and heart and soul in a vision to create a game whose success is now jeopardized by the exaggerated discussion.

I can not accept that people who place me at the center of any discussion generally lump all the team members here at Warhorse. Or condemn our game based on their assumptions about my person or worldview.

I apologize for my lack of care and thoughtlessness in my personal communication, which has led to misunderstandings in the past. Should I hurt feelings or give the impression of propagating a kind of ideology, I apologize for that. I would also like to take this opportunity to talk about the issues that are currently in dispute.

Ethnic composition of the population of Bohemia in the Middle Ages and Kingdom Come: Deliverance

Probably the most serious allegation of the current debate revolves around the accusation that we would actively deny the presence of people of other skin color or ethnicity in our game and thus promote a racist worldview. That's wrong. I personally do not deny this fact, nor does Kingdom Come: Deliverance limit itself to any ethnic group. In the course of history, based on our knowledge of historical events, there are, besides Czechs, Germans and Jewish residents, the largest grouping in the game, the Kumans (in German also Kipchak) a Turkic tribe from the Eurasian steppe Migration and the displacement by the settlements of Hungary found its way to Bohemia at that time.

The nationality of other characters reflects what we know about Bohemia around 1403. Thanks to intensive research, this knowledge includes entire family trees and property rights. As already mentioned, the plot of Kingdom Come: Deliverance is limited to a limited area of today's Czech Republic (16qkm), an area that lies far inland from the European continent. Based on our sources, the region was mainly populated by people whose regional origin is in present-day Czech Republic, Germany, Poland, Belgium (Walloon). In addition, the sources speak of a few people of Italian origin, who worked mainly as stonemasons and architects in the big cities and a Jewish community.

Of course, the situation at the time looked more heterogeneous in some other countries. Countries whose coasts have been heavily traveled, for example, through maritime trade. The people of Bohemia were certainly also aware that there are people of other skin color or descent, not least thanks to the representation of biblical persons or other works of art, however, it is more than doubtful that under their normal living conditions in rural areas, in the KCD is authoritative, ever had direct contact.

We have already dealt extensively with historians and historical sources while preparing for the work on the game. When the first allegations were made, I reiterated and intensified this discourse to make sure that we do not portray history in any altered form.

Most of the available literature is in Czech, but here are some quotes:

German translation in Prague is the second half of the 12th century, but the Privilege notes that they have been in Prague since the time of Vratislaus II Romance settlement (Walloons, possibly Italians).

We know about no settlements of other nations in Prague. Outside of Prague it was individual Germans or Jews settled along the trade routes or small groups of foreigners in monasteries and chapters. (Klápšt ?, 2005: 354; Žemlička, 1997: 211-217).

Overwhelming majority of the male population is biologically rooted in Central Europe for about ten thousand years. It is clear that the difference between the linguistic identity and the biological identity is that it is in the middle of the world. In laymen terms, these people "came from nowhere". (Between life, death and identity: Archaeology and genetics about the origins of Southern Czechs in Netolice, Jaromír Beneš, Emanuel Žárský, History and Present ( Díjiny a sou? Asnost) 7/2011)

Politics and GamersGate

Another point raised by critics of my person is their interpretation of my political world view and behavior in the GamerGate discourse. I see myself as a liberal person, whose highest good is the maximum personal freedom of all people, as long as this freedom does not affect the rights and the integrity of other people.

I grew up in a country dominated by a communist regime after being occupied by the National Socialists. The Nazis killed over 300,000 people alone in the territory of today's Czech Republic. My grandfather was imprisoned in a labor camp from which he luckily escaped. After the war, the Communists confiscated my family's home and business and repressed our freedom for another 40 years. I am not a friend of any kind of totalitarian rule and consider the accusation that I am a Nazi or close to any ideology that even remotely goes in that direction, therefore as absurd, even personally offensive and offensive. Anyone who follows me on social networks will know that I cherish the antifascist movement of our past, and the people who follow me always remember our past or honors for our ancestors who were fighting against this regime , I do this to remember the history of our country and its fight against two unjust regimes so that my fans - especially young people - will not forget them.

My point of view to GamerGate I have stated in various interviews, among others, at Kotaku. In summary, I would like to say that for me at heart it was always about the freedom of speech and the freedom of opinion and thoughts. The freedom for artists to create art, free of political influence. For me personally and I speak only for myself, should the artwork initially always be seen free of political or ideological views, unless the art clearly and aggressively communicates racism or any form of discrediting of minorities. Such messages can, do and will not be good, not only me, but our entire team.

Today I see my comments in a different light and would like to apologize if my points of view in individual discussions should have been better communicated by me. I'm sure I should have used a better word choice or form of communication in some cases. I wanted to contribute with my view to the above-mentioned freedom of speech and my desire to make artists work without being influenced by the opinion of other people. This is my personal opinion.

The T-Shirt

That was stupid. Without ulterior motive or hidden message. I listen to a variety of music styles, but I'm a big heavy metal fan at heart. To underline my passion for this music, I had decided to wear a T-shirt every day at gamescom 2017, which is another less well-known album. One of these shirts was printed with the artwork of the Burzum album Filosofem. This album is still regarded as a milestone in the development of Scandinavian Black Metal and is widely regarded as a classic of this genre. By wearing the said T-shirt I wanted to emphasize nothing more than the artistic meaning of the album.

The album itself is apolitical, largely instrumental and deals with topics such as loneliness, darkness and loss in his texts. It is still available for sale or streamed by all major vendors, and still appears on many lists listing the best black metal albums.

Most important to me personally is that my conscience is pure. I do not support any form of extremism, on the contrary, based on my personal life experience, I strongly oppose it. I have two daughters, to whom I wish nothing but the best for the future and that they can lead their lives in freedom.

In fact, I wrote about ten percent of the quests in the game myself, and the rest was contributed by the seven other designers who, as individuals, may see and judge many things in life differently than I do. We live and work together because we are tolerant, rational people who accept other opinions and communicate in open exchange.

I know that Kingdom Come: Deliverance is a great piece of entertainment for the realization of which is a large international team. I am very grateful to be part of this team.
And co-founder of the studio, Martin Klíma:
I would like to comment on the recent discussions surrounding the acceptance of a particular world view of my colleague Daniel Vavra and historical aspects of our game Kingdom Come: Deliverance, in which we have been working together for over six years.

I want to start playing. We are accused of malicious intent and under the influence of us - otherwise rejected - ideologies, all non-white people who may have existed in medieval Bohemia, we have removed from our presentation and replaced by blond super-Aryans. Here you have to look at different levels. To make it simple and to say it clearly: that is not true. In the game, there are people of different ethnic backgrounds, so come next to people from today's Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary and Jewish descent, the Kuman, a nomadic people from the steppes of Asia within the plot.

Now comes the argument of the critics, but what about black people? After more than four years of intensive research, it can be stated that there is no proof that there were no dark-skinned people in Bohemia and vice versa. There are many things that we can not prove, otherwise we would have to assume, for example, that lions would have lived in the forests of Bohemia - after all, the coat of arms of the ruling house is adorned with a lion. Where else could people have had this portrait?

However, in my opinion, that finding misses the core of the allegations. We do not play a game about medieval Europe, but tell a story that is located in a very small part of medieval Europe. Our game does not focus on the "big story", not on wars, kings or popes, but on the story of ordinary people. Our main character is not a Chosen, Dragon's Blood or Savior, at the end of the game he will not become king or ruler. The players are not carried away by world-changing events, they do not even travel Prague or even Rome - the power centers of the time, whose population composition was certainly massively different from that of rural Bohemia. Therefore, the question of the possibility of ethnic minority existence in the game world did not matter to us.

I would also like to comment on the person Daniel Vavra. Since this will be a very personal statement, I think it is appropriate to first say a few words about myself. My father, Jan Klima, spent his childhood in the Theresienstadt Concentration Camp, together with his parents and his brother Ivan Klima, who later became a well-known author. The rest of her family was killed in the gas chambers. Parts of my family (Viktor and Otto Synek) were executed as resistance fighters, after them today a place in Prague is named. I apologize if I'm boring with this background to my person, but I want to underline how offensive I think it is for me to be accused of having worked and spent the last six years of my life with a man whom you have assumed a closeness to racist or neo-Nazi ideas.

I have known Daniel for many years and do not necessarily agree with all his views. I disagree with his strict liberal view of the world that competition is the motor of society, on the contrary, I believe that society is and ought to be more than just the sum of individuals. And honestly, Heavy Metal does not interest me at all. But strong views on freedom, a passion for outdoor activities, paintball or listening to certain music do not make someone a Nazi.

Daniel is always quick with words, sometimes too fast and I know, sometimes he wishes for himself, he would think more about things before he pronounces them. He never shies away from communicating his views, no matter how unpopular they may be. But these characteristics also make him the important person he is for our project. Someone who does not avoid a confrontation, someone who does not settle for mediocrity or consensus on mediocrity. Daniel is a man who reminds everyone of the vision we work for and motivates people to do their best - that's exactly what you need in the development of such a gigantic project as Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2017
9,859
If the game is not pushing some racist/mysoginist or sexist themes i don't care about what Vàvra thinks, this is a 100+ people game between developers, PR, publisher and distribution, and i don't want to "boycott" this game only because Vàrva has different views from me or all the people working on this game.
I just want to play a medieval RPG.
 

Silky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,522
Georgia
You shouldn't stomach blatant headassery from lead developer figures and you should vote with your wallet by buying into (probably better) alternatives, and in the case of some WRPG there's plenty of alternatives to begin with.
 

fanboi

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,702
Sweden
The game is created by more then one person and by not supporting a game will most likely damage the people that may or may not share the leaders views before the leaders get any damage.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,231
I predict most of gaming side is going to have no problem "separating" art from the artist. Though what they really mean is they don't care if the people they support are bigots.

Personally Vavra ain't getting a penny from me. There's too many other games in my infinite backlog for me to willingly hand over money to known filth.
 

KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
Mostly because gamers don't care and press doesn't care aside from few american websites who love politics and drama. And a lot of Kingdom Come's drama is just result of american ignorance having explosive reaction when met with edgelord slavic dev

When it comes to the game itself I've seen people accuse it of falsifying history, but none of them made any convincing arguments.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,277
There aren't alternatives in this space when it comes to realism in an open world RPG, it's all swords and sorcery knock off Tolkien fantasy so I'm extremely glad I love Daniel Vavra (ever since Mafia 1) and find him endlessly entertaining. I've yet to see a convincing argument that POC were present in rural Bohemia during the 14th century.

Normally I'd say "let us have this one game" but we've already paid for it. Thank god for crowdfunding. Feel free to boycott it or whatever but you'll be missing out on some quality Eurojank.
omnobVt.jpg
 

TheMoon

|OT|
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,644
Video Games
I think this would've made more wind had it been a more high profile game centered around North America. I'd even forgotten this game existed, for example. The line in the article about hyping up a hyped game seems odd to me for that reason. While I am from Europe, I basically never read any EU press so I don't know if PC mags are hyping it up, for example. While the topic is very zeitgeisty, the game itself is just another one of those c-tier stocking stuffers from Europe. The POC representation made bigger waves with The Witcher 3, for example, since that game actually had traction in the press and mainstream.

To the other point, I think it's totally fine to say "I don't support this creator's worldview" and not buying something despite being interested in the design pitch. But to send any actual "message" to that person, one would also need to reach out to them through some means of actual communication ("voting with wallets" is a pretty flawed concept).
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
If the game literally reflects the creators ideals then there is simply no reason to support his bigoted revisionism.


I was following this game only through the YouTube channel.

To learn about this has changed my mind on picking it up.

At least there is mount and blade to look forward to.
 

Silky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,522
Georgia
I think this would've made more wind had it been a more high profile game centered around North America. I'd even forgotten this game existed, for example. The line in the article about hyping up a hyped game seems odd to me for that reason. While I am from Europe, I basically never read any EU press so I don't know if PC mags are hyping it up, for example. While the topic is very zeitgeisty, the game itself is just another one of those c-tier stocking stuffers from Europe. The POC representation made bigger waves with The Witcher 3, for example, since that game actually had traction in the press and mainstream.

To the other point, I think it's totally fine to say "I don't support this creator's worldview" and not buying something despite being interested in the design pitch. But to send any actual "message" to that person, one would also need to reach out to them through some means of actual communication ("voting with wallets" is a pretty flawed concept).

Vavra is pretty admant on not really listening to criticizers of KC:D's history revisionism so any sort of genuine communication/feedback on that front is probably out the window
 

Yoshi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,055
Germany
Well, he is wrong about that (did not know that, but quick google search says he is wrong and with good sourcing). It wouldn't affect my enjoyment of the game though, even though this can be considered a case where his wrong opinion on history is influencing the game a bit.
 
OP
OP
Dictator

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,623
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Mostly because gamers don't care and press doesn't care aside from few american websites who love politics and drama.
It is written by a German Game's Studies person, so it is not an anglo-american question. The German Game's Studies inteligensia is filled to the brim with people concerned about the political content of games (or all media in general). Heck, I like to consider myself as being one of them.
I've seen people accuse the game of falsifying history, but none of them made by convincing argument.
The article points out and makes reference to the whole debate concerning the inclusion of any POC characters. It is one of the large sticking points which got this whole thing started.

A more provocative question IMO (which the article does not really pose= could be asked regarding the exact time period of the game's setting, and the presentation of German vs. Czechs in the then Bohemia. My knowledge of central-eastern European historical politics, makes me realise that the discussion of the "founding" periods of nationalities are rife with historical revisionism, mythos, and inaccurate or lop-sided portrayals. Kind of like the Battle of Tours...
 

IHaveIce

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,437
There aren't alternatives in this space when it comes to realism in an open world RPG, it's all swords and sorcery knock off Tolkien fantasy so I'm extremely glad I love Daniel Vavra (ever since Mafia 1) and find him endlessly entertaining. I've yet to see a convincing argument that POC were present in rural Bohemia during the 14th century.

Normally I'd say "let us have this one game" but we've already paid for it. Thank god for crowdfunding. Feel free to boycott it or whatever but you'll be missing out on some quality Eurojank.
Wow.. some of these answers
 

KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
Vavra is pretty admant on not really listening to criticizers of KC:D's history revisionism so any sort of genuine communication/feedback on that front is probably out the window
He probably has more trust in professional historian, who does research on the ground and is not even Czech, than american people who assume Bohemia is located in southern europe
 
OP
OP
Dictator

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,623
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
He probably has more trust in professional historian, who does research on the ground and is not even Czech, than american people who assume Bohemia is located in southern europe
There is a conceit in a lot of places of the world regarding national history. Some places are worse off than others, but having overly nationalistic readings of history tends to cloud their veracity.
Also, if you read the article you can see that the author speaks directly to a historian whose entire focus is on POC in medieval Europe and how it is revisionist to deny their existence categorically as Vávra has done (which is the reasoning for them not being included in game).
 

Schlomo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,057
Also, if you read the article you can see that the author speaks directly to a historian whose entire focus is on POC in medieval Europe and how it is revisionist to deny their existence categorically as Vávra has done (which is the reasoning for them not being included in game).

Yes, I think this mostly blew up over his "there were none" comment, which people were quick to disprove. However, there being some exchange with non-white cultures and travelers and it actually being plausible to encounter any in the place the game is set in are two very different things.
 

KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
It is written by a German Game's Studies person, so it is not an anglo-american question. The German Game's Studies inteligensia is filled to the brim with people concerned about the political content of games (or all media in general). Heck, I like to consider myself as being one of them.
.
is that why the article is posted on some no-name blog instead of any of the big german websites like gamestar of pcgames.de?

The article points out and makes reference to the whole debate concerning the inclusion of any POC characters. It is one of the large sticking points which got this whole thing started..
Americans bassicaly view diversity = lots of black folk. Which obviously doesn't fit the historical place and period of the game. The devs said multiple times there will be many ethicities in the game, it's just that they're all white or semi-white, so for americans it's not diversity at all.

Vavra has bad temper, some questionable views and loves to troll. But his game doesn't look like it's historicalli innacurate and he is right that a guy from poor slavic country has no obligation to create cultural products designed to satisfy americans progressivism's political goals. What Polygon and others did isn;t any different than some stuck up american person traveling to africa or middle east and telling local developers they have too many black/arab people in their games and they absolutely need to add more white folk. Anyone reasonable would get angry at people like that. Vavra should have just completely ignored them instead of getting into twitter wars that don't accomplish anything but piss people off.
 

AlsoZ

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,003
Well, he is wrong about that (did not know that, but quick google search says he is wrong and with good sourcing).
I have yet to find something that actually makes a reasonable point that any ethnicities other than the ones listed by Vavra himself (people of the surrounding area, jews, and a turk-ish (note the dash) tribe) would be present in that particular piece of land in medieval Bohemia (to the point where including them makes historical sense).
So, link(s) would be appreciated.
 

gdt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,445
There aren't alternatives in this space when it comes to realism in an open world RPG, it's all swords and sorcery knock off Tolkien fantasy so I'm extremely glad I love Daniel Vavra (ever since Mafia 1) and find him endlessly entertaining. I've yet to see a convincing argument that POC were present in rural Bohemia during the 14th century.

Normally I'd say "let us have this one game" but we've already paid for it. Thank god for crowdfunding. Feel free to boycott it or whatever but you'll be missing out on some quality Eurojank.

A lot of these comments are really sketchy dude
 

Berto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
543
I love historic games so Im interested in Kingdom Come and will buy it. Its a pitty Vavra is a douche, but thats secondary issue for me, I'm sure there are also great people working on it.
 

Snormy

The Meanest
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,637
Morizora's Forest
To me it is a case by case and it while I do regret that when instances occur that I don't buy a game it can hurt those who worked on the game that don't share the view but this is sadly how things are with companies and corporations. Those who lead can lead the company to a negative state even when the followers or employees in this case does nothing wrong. I do not blame the employees here and it is unfortunate if their careers are affected but I'm not going to buy a game I don't want to because of this.

There are so many games that I can and will, nit pick on everything. If I want a game but don't want to buy it then I will weigh the reasons.

In the case of Kingdom Come, I find his justification stupid. I've been following the game since announcement but I am certainly in no hurry to buy it and with every additional thing I read on this it just pushes it further away. I rarely day one purchase so it was always going to be "wait and see" but at this point I doubt I will buy this game until it is heavily discounted or at all. Plenty of other games to play.
 

Kida

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,830
There are plenty of other eurojank games around so I'll just play them. I'm really enjoying my time with Elex.

I have no interest in supporting a bigot at such a senior level in development.
 

Silky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,522
Georgia
is that why the article is posted on some no-name blog instead of any of the big german websites like gamestar of pcgames.de?

So when games press actually attempt and succeed to get historians involved in analyzing the "obsessive authenticity" of KC:D your natural response is "NOW POST IT ON A REAL GAMES SITE"

lmfao what does it matter of the visibility of the site? Do you really need validation in your own, exclusively shrinking bubble to actually consider that the thing you enjoy may not be enjoyable to others
 
Oct 28, 2017
226
Daniel Vavra has explained multiple times that he's trying to make his game historically accurate and the location and period for his game WAS homogeneously white. There's very little debate on this. People citing "Moors" really need to read a history book (and check an Atlas). Why is this an issue for people? If I play a game set in feudal Japan, I don't expect random white people to be wandering around, just for the sake of it, because that would look silly. If it's a fantasy game, then it's different, but the whole premise of Kingdom Come: Deliverance was to make a game that was realistic.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
Vavra seems to be very strong in his convictions and I wanna respect that by withholding a purchase.
 

Yoshi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,055
Germany
I have yet to find something that actually makes a reasonable point that any ethnicities other than the ones listed by Vavra himself (people of the surrounding area, jews, and a turk-ish (note the dash) tribe) would be present in that particular piece of land in medieval Bohemia (to the point where including them makes historical sense).
So, link(s) would be appreciated.
https://www.publicmedievalist.com/uncovering-african/
Of course, it says nothing about the amount of people one would expect and gives no specific bounds on the regions where to expect them, but as long as there was interchange, it is probably a safe assumption, that you will find a few black people all around Europe in medieval times. It is another question whether they will play an important role in medieval war games, but their inclusion wouldn't "obviously" go against historic events.
 

haveheart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,045
Look at the outrage casued by lootboxes when game publishers like EA or Blizzard implement money making schemes in their games.

Now here's a game who's lead developer is publicly pushing racist agendas, who is a gamergater, who is interpreting history as it fits his (objectively false) views. Now this product you are defending.

This is hypocrisy. Don't you dare to scrutinize products regarding the people who design and develop, who realise their visions through a game.
 

KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
Also, if you read the article you can see that the author speaks directly to a historian whose entire focus is on POC in medieval Europe and how it is revisionist to deny their existence categorically as Vávra has done (which is the reasoning for them not being included in game).
AFAIR that historian failed to provide any resources that would actually point to this region in medieval times.
Now, the historical records being what they are mean that it is impossible to say there was no black dude wandering around during that time period in Bohemia. So categorically saying there couldn't be any is foolish. But if you're making historical game you ought to built it on what is known, and the rest you extrapolate from that. and there's no record of black person in bohemian countryside and realities of period mean it would be pretty much impossible for him to live regular life there. At best he might be invader or slave trader looking to kidnapp locals, but including such character would require a lot of effort and explanations, plus if lack of black people in a game about medieval eastern european countryside is riling progressives up I can't even imagine what shitstorm including one in such roles would.

So at this point what seems to be problematic is Vavra's stances and attitudes, not the actual game itself, which looks to be reflecting historical realisties well and has potential to be of a great value when it comes to increasing diversity of gaming medium as a whole.
 

TheMoon

|OT|
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,644
Video Games
Vavra is pretty admant on not really listening to criticizers of KC:D's history revisionism so any sort of genuine communication/feedback on that front is probably out the window
I don't mean spamming him on twitter, but a general email to the dev and/or publisher. Just so they have that feedback explicitly. Telling them why means more then just not buying it in silence. That just tells them "nobody wants this type of game" if at all when we actually do want more of those kinds of games.
 

Segafreak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,756
Daniel Vavra has explained multiple times that he's trying to make his game historically accurate and the location and period for his game WAS homogeneously white. There's very little debate on this. People citing "Moors" really need to read a history book (and check an Atlas). Why is this an issue for people? If I play a game set in feudal Japan, I don't expect random white people to be wandering around, just for the sake of it, because that would look silly. If it's a fantasy game, then it's different, but the whole premise of Kingdom Come: Deliverance was to make a game that was realistic.
Moors weren't the only non-white people to set foot in Europe. Moors weren't even in Central Europe, but the Turks, Tatars, and several other Asian clans (Hungarians) from the steppe were.
 

PaypayTR

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,108
I am going to buy this game because it looks miles better than Skyrim or Witcher 3.
I could care less about politics in my vidya when i play them for fun
 

KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
So when games press actually attempt and succeed to get historians involved in analyzing the "obsessive authenticity" of KC:D your natural response is "NOW POST IT ON A REAL GAMES SITE"

lmfao what does it matter of the visibility of the site? Do you really need validation in your own, exclusively shrinking bubble to actually consider that the thing you enjoy may not be enjoyable to others
Ehh...dude, did you actually read the OP? The quote in it asks the question "Why are the games press remaining silent?". Visibility of a website doesn't matter to me, but it clearly matters to blog's authors if he asks that question.
 

Deleted member 21411

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,907
Generally if I want to play game and don't wanna support the developers I buy used. It's all personal ethics so you just do you.
 

Al3x1s

Banned
Nov 13, 2017
2,824
Greece
in the case of some WRPG there's plenty of alternatives to begin with
Huh? I'd only compare Kingdom Come to The Witcher 3 or Skyrim only on a very surface level and we're far from new entries in either series. Maybe Mount&Blade 2 could scratch the medieval no-fantasy itch but it's also a very very different kind of game (if it even comes around the same time)... What alternatives to this game are you thinking of? A broad genre label doesn't mean shit really, might as well just say you could play any other game or watch a tv series instead of play it, they aren't alternatives, just completely different things to do with your time. You could even sleep!
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,277
A lot of these comments are really sketchy dude
But he's right. Why aren't these twitter mobs going after the developers of the games based on Romance of the Three Kingdoms and why do people only go after Kingdom Come Deliverance, the extremely rare example of a medieval RPG trying to stay true to the subject matter lacking representation because you could go your whole life without seeing a person of another skin color in that place at that time? Especially in a game taking place within an area that is only 16 square kilometers.

How many people jumping into these discussions were backers or were truly even interested in the first place? This is a niche within a niche so even assuming he gave people the representation being demanded despite being advised by his historians that there's no need for representation because there were no POC in rural Bohemia at that time, would they even have supported it? Why bother then? I think this is just another case of people trying to impose their own values and dictate something being created for an audience that doesn't include them.

Also, let's assume that he did put POC in the game. Would people have been satisfied with one or two NPCs out in the world, as that would absolutely be accurate to the time period and setting... Or would that not be enough representation?
 

KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
Moors weren't the only non-white people to set foot in Europe. Moors weren't even in Central Europe, but the Turks, Tatars, and several other Asian clans (Hungarians) from the steppe were.
Some of those will be in the game. For example Cumans appearance was confirmed long time ago.
The game will have plenty of ethnic diversity. Just the one that reflects realities of that period in that part of the world.
 

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
This guy is openly racist and sexist, wears shirts from nazi metal bands, says the same BS that there weren't any black people in Europa at that time
while pushing his game as historically accurate.

And Sites like GameStar or Rocketbeans didn't do their job as journalists to question all of this. That's why this "little blog" wrote about it and even
accused these sites by helping Vavra marketing his game and his "vision". Intentionally or not.
And yes, GameStar wrote a piece about it today, but it's just to defend themselves from the accusations that they didn't research this guys background
and his personal views (which will influence the overall stroy, duh) by totally ignoring these points and just giving Vavra a place to spit out some
uncontextualised statements.

And just for the sake of it, here are two tweets from Vavra when people questioned the decision to not have POC in Witcher 3



So to just go out and tell your viewers/readers that this game could be the most authentic history game ever, without informing them about the
creative director is more than negligent
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,747
I am going to buy this game because it looks miles better than Skyrim or Witcher 3.
I could care less about politics in my vidya when i play them for fun

Couldn't care less and I love how people throw in politics because they know that word has a negative reaction to allot of folks. It's not politics... It's basic human decency.
 
Nov 4, 2017
6,679
"I may not agree with everything that Hitler fellow says, but his concentration camps hire hundreds of people; many of whom may not be anti-Semites": the thread.

King Henry VIII hired an African trumpet player in 1508 and nobody seemed to have a problem with it. It kinda makes it seem like PoC were common enough in Europe to get hired without freaking people out back then. So they were like 500 years ahead of the US XD
 
Oct 28, 2017
226
Moors weren't the only non-white people to set foot in Europe. Moors weren't even in Central Europe, but the Turks, Tatars, and several other Asian clans (Hungarians) from the steppe were.

Right and Europe is an entire continent and a pretty massive place. Because this game is striving for historical accuracy, you need to prove, un-categorically, that they were in *Bohemia* in the time when this game is set. Beyond this, if random Turks or Tatars are going to be walking around the village in-game, you also need to prove that they lived and co-existed peacefully, in the same villages, as the native Bohemians when this happened (or show them as marauding invaders, which would be more likely - and also probably offend even more people). If you can't, then Vavra and his team are perfectly within their right to not include them in his game.
 

haveheart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,045
But he's right. Why aren't these twitter mobs going after the developers of the games based on Romance of the Three Kingdoms and why do people only go after Kingdom Come Deliverance, the extremely rare example of a medieval RPG trying to stay true to the subject matter lacking representation because you could go your whole life without seeing a person of another skin color in that place at that time?

How many people jumping into these discussions were backers or were truly even interested in the first place? This is a niche within a niche so even assuming he gave people the representation being demanded despite being advised by his historians that there's no need for representation because there were no POC in rural Bohemia at that time, would they even have supported it? Why bother then? I think this is just another case of people trying to impose their own values and dictate something being created for an audience that doesn't include them.

Also, let's assume that he did put POC in the game. Would people have been satisfied with one or two NPCs out in the world, as that would absolutely be accurate to the time period and setting... Or would that not be enough representation?

It's the combination of explicitely not wanting to have poc in this game because of "historical accuracy" and Vavra's persona. We've had this discussion a couple of times now whether you should/can separate art from the artist.

If he was just a normal guy saying "but according to our historians, there were no poc in this region during that time" it would be something different. If a guy wearing a Burzum shirt, who's openly supporting gamergate says something like "I don't want to inject foreign cultures in my game" it's really something different. At least for me.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
17,740
I honestly don't mind that much the explanation of the lack of POC in this particular game, but Vavra looks like such a piece of shit that I'm inclined to believe that he is just racist
 

Mendrox

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,439
I have yet to find something that actually makes a reasonable point that any ethnicities other than the ones listed by Vavra himself (people of the surrounding area, jews, and a turk-ish (note the dash) tribe) would be present in that particular piece of land in medieval Bohemia (to the point where including them makes historical sense).
So, link(s) would be appreciated.

Yep me too. I am interested in that and can't find anything on Google myself.
 

Q_Pippin

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
258
Daniel Vavra has explained multiple times that he's trying to make his game historically accurate and the location and period for his game WAS homogeneously white. There's very little debate on this. People citing "Moors" really need to read a history book (and check an Atlas). Why is this an issue for people? If I play a game set in feudal Japan, I don't expect random white people to be wandering around, just for the sake of it, because that would look silly. If it's a fantasy game, then it's different, but the whole premise of Kingdom Come: Deliverance was to make a game that was realistic.
Honestly this
I feel like this is just more about the lead challenging the question and going against the typical dev answers to press. You don't expect a dev to rebuke the call for more diversity in games these days so now it's a got the attention of some people. If it's good I might buy it.
 

Donny K.

Member
Oct 29, 2017
23
You shouldn't stomach blatant headassery from lead developer figures and you should vote with your wallet by buying into (probably better) alternatives, and in the case of some WRPG there's plenty of alternatives to begin with.

With that attitude, your going to have a real problem once ads start popping up in this forum buddy. No offense intended, really, but "buying" clean seems only easy until you follow the argument through. Are your devices made in part by foxconn? Most likely they are. Thats a company that builds nets around the side of their buildings so employees cant demonstrate against working conditions by suicide dropping from the side. 99.9% chance you own products that have components built by them. What if ads start popping up on this site soon, where the product is "clean", but the decision makers in that company invest or are into some devious stuff? Youll stop coming?

Wheres the line?

I dont disagree with your position. But i would like to illustrate that its much easier to say "you shouldnt" then not to oneself.
 

Cranston

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,377
It' simply individual choice.

I don't believe anyone has any right, whatsoever, to demand a piece of art conform to their standards or expectations.

Likewise, I don't think anyone should be told to turn a blind eye, if it exercises them.

As long as something is not actively preaching hatred, with a view to promoting illegal activity, then it's up to us to apply our tastes.
 

MikeBluesky

Member
Nov 27, 2017
124
Yes, I think this mostly blew up over his "there were none" comment, which people were quick to disprove. However, there being some exchange with non-white cultures and travelers and it actually being plausible to encounter any in the place the game is set in are two very different things.

This.
They should put like 2-3 NPC's hidden in the world (like in a tavern or something looking like group of travelers) and be done with this nonsense. That would be reasonably accurate IMO.
 
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